Vegas Video discussions from 2005 (Q3Q4)

Tony Rockliff · October 26th, 2005, 07:39 AM

If you have a track with a very few loud noises, it's usually better to isolate those points, split the events and lower the volume of each of those loud noises manually and then set the level of the overall track to where you want it in relation to the rest of the tracks.

Compressors are very good for adding presence and clarity by putting everything to an average level but they also raise the volume of the lower levels so they can bring up noise and cause a pumping effect if there are big differences between the loud and quiet sounds.

Limiters only affect the high volume sounds and if they are too high in relation to the rest of the track then it will sound squashed and unnatural at those points.

Glenn's suggested settings are very good but will work better if you've manually tamed any large peaks beforehand. This is a trick used in the audio world to enable one to use compressors and limiters and still have them sound natural.

Tony

Graham Bernard · October 26th, 2005, 08:38 AM

"I also highly recommend monitoring your Vegas timeline via firewire on an external calibrated monitor so you can see the black levels more accurately."

.. oh yes . . oh yes . . .

Glenn Chan · October 26th, 2005, 10:08 AM

Tony: The "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" is for converting from 16-235 space (blacks at 16, whites at 235) to 0-255 (blacks previously at 16 now end up at 0, whites previously at 235 end up at 255). It's not the appropriate filter for handling the 0 / 7.5IRE setup issue.

Here's my explanation of the whole issue, and I hope it doesn't confuse you.

Analog levels:
Standard analog black level for non-Japan NTSC is 7.5IRE. For Japan it's 0 IRE.
Standard white level is at 100IRE for both Japan and non-Japan NTSC.

Digital levels:
DV records in Y'CbCr format. Y' is the luma component and the legal range for those values is 16-235.
If you are using the Sony DV codec, 16 on the histogram corresponds to a Y' value of 16. And 235 to 235.
The Microsoft DV codec doesn't do this (which is why the Sony DV codec exists, I believe). The Microsoft codec does 0-255.

When converting from digital to analog, a Y' value of 16 should be converted to 7.5 IRE for non-Japan NTSC. Not all North American equipment does this (most consumer equipment doesn't do this). Most equipment will put a Y' value of 16 at 0 IRE instead, which may not really look all that bad (increased contrast, loss of shadow detail, darker image [but most TVs make dark images look good]). It's bad if you are adjusting your video levels and trying to make things look better.

There is a lot of confusing information on this subject out there, hopefully I'm not adding to the confusion.

2- I believe Japanese camcorders record black at proper digital black level (Y' = 16). I can check this when I go home.

3- Dale:
Chances are, the range of light values in a scene exceed the contrast/exposure range your camera can capture. There's usually some specular reflection that is a lot brighter than everything else. Also, skies on a sunny day are problematic.

I would not use a light meter. In video you can see your results instantly if you drag along a field monitor (a CRT-based one).
Do not use a consumer monitor in this situation. Almost all of them are made to make pictures overly bright, which will make underexposed footage look good. And you're not going to catch that. You could probably calibrate the consumer monitor not to do that, but then they also do things to your picture which you may not know about (i.e. flesh tone correction, noise reduction, edge sharpening/enhancement, hue is probably slightly off).

This gets into tricky issues, because a broadcast-grade monitor is supposed to be the standard and consumer equipment should fall around that standard. But consumer equipment, on average, is overly bright. It doesn't fall around the standards.

A big advantage of a broadcast monitor is that they are easy to calibrate, and you know it won't have picture cheats like flesh tone correction. It's probably better to make things look good on a broadcast monitor than a consumer monitor.

Tony Rockliff · October 26th, 2005, 10:49 AM

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the expanded explanation. I've often wondered why the preset was called "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" and have wondered if it was technically (or logically) the right tool.

All I can say is that after extensive testing it is the tool that corrects the black level problems introduced by my particular system/hardware and software line.

If I render using the Vegas Mainconcept or Procoder encoders after using that preset my DVDs come out with perfect black levels. If I don't they're washed-out. If I render using the TMPGEnc encoder I have to also select its CCIR601 expansion preset.

I'm using a calibrated Panasonic broadcast monitor.

Tony

DJ Kinney · October 26th, 2005, 01:01 PM

Yeah, I got my terminology a little confused there. I don't want to CLIP my shadows, I want to COMPRESS them.

O.K. So color curves it is.

I'll be looking forward to the .veg.

Thanks Glenn!

David Jimerson · October 26th, 2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Bettan

We agree completely! That's why we've put together special bundles with VASST & Sony that include VASST training and trial versions of Ultimate S & Gearshift with any Vegas purchase.

We're also offering a bundle of VASST training & Ultimate S.

We've posted an interview on our site with Douglas Spotted Eagle that talks about Vegas, Ultimate S & HDV. Check it out http://www.videoguys.com/vegas_spot.html

Gary

Very nice! I never mind seeing my own work plugged, either . . . :)

Looks like a great deal.

David Jimerson · October 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM

There is a quicker but less-precise method; instead of using a bezier mask on the upper event, you'd use a pre-made cookie cutter. The effect is more or less the same; you're isolating your foreground element and eliminating the background from your upper track, then applying the color-correction to the lower track. Get it in fairly tight, and you may have what you want -- and if you adjust opacity or add edge blur to the upper layer, you can hedge the color-correction in a little bit. It might make for some cool effects, too.

DJ Kinney · October 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM

This is a perfect example of a time when what I mention in this thread

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=53385

would come in useful.

Ray Sigmond · October 27th, 2005, 12:26 AM

Hey Dave:

I purchased my Ultimate S 2.0 with Celluloid this morning!

Bob Costa · October 27th, 2005, 09:43 PM

Has anyone loaded up the Boris FX8 plus-ins yet? I am interested in how well the image stabilzation tool works, since it is not native in Vegas and I can always improve my hand-held stuff.

David Bird · October 28th, 2005, 11:11 AM

Hello everyone..need a little help.
I transferred about 6 minutes of video last night to V6. After the capture, a screen indicated that approximately 400 frames were dropped. I'm shooting a Pana AGDVC200 at a shutter speed of 1/100th. Transferred via firewire to a Pentium 4, 2.66 Ghz, 1 gig of ram. Any suggestions or thoughts?
Thanks - David Bird

Douglas Spotted Eagle · October 28th, 2005, 11:42 AM

How large did you have the preview window?
Hard drive defragged?
Separate Hard drive?
Anti-virus turned on?

The Vegas FAQ: http://www.vasst.com/sony/default.aspx has lots of dropped frame suggestions.

David Bird · October 28th, 2005, 04:52 PM

Preview window is less than 1/4 of the screen, hard drive has not been defragged...just installed it about 1 month ago. I have a separate 250 gig, 7500 rpm drive specifically installed for video footage...However, now that I think of it, the footage that was captured went to "My Documents" for some reason, which resides on my C: drive....
David Bird

David Bird · October 28th, 2005, 06:30 PM

I have an avi on the upper track...it's been chroma keyed...and another track below. Can't see the lower track...I know I'm missing a setting.... ?
David Bird

Dan Barnhill · October 31st, 2005, 02:27 PM

Hey All,

Hope everyone is having a Happy Halloween.

I've been using Vegas 5 to record audio for the last year or so and it works great. But I can't seem to find a way to record software synths directly into Vegas.

For guitars, vox, foley work, I'm running into an Echo Mona which gets along with Vegas just fine.

For soft syth things, I've got an M-audio midi keystation plugged via USB into the computer running M-audio Keyrig and a few other virtual synth programs.

How do I set Vegas to capture those sounds?

Any help, as always, is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan Barnhill

October 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM	#982
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	There is a quicker but less-precise method; instead of using a bezier mask on the upper event, you'd use a pre-made cookie cutter. The effect is more or less the same; you're isolating your foreground element and eliminating the background from your upper track, then applying the color-correction to the lower track. Get it in fairly tight, and you may have what you want -- and if you adjust opacity or add edge blur to the upper layer, you can hedge the color-correction in a little bit. It might make for some cool effects, too. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

October 27th, 2005, 09:43 PM	#985
Bob Costa Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Venice, FL Posts: 850	Boris FX8 & Vegas Has anyone loaded up the Boris FX8 plus-ins yet? I am interested in how well the image stabilzation tool works, since it is not native in Vegas and I can always improve my hand-held stuff. __________________ You are either growing or dying.

October 28th, 2005, 11:11 AM	#986
David Bird Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sikeston, Missouri, USA Posts: 118	Dropped Frames Hello everyone..need a little help. I transferred about 6 minutes of video last night to V6. After the capture, a screen indicated that approximately 400 frames were dropped. I'm shooting a Pana AGDVC200 at a shutter speed of 1/100th. Transferred via firewire to a Pentium 4, 2.66 Ghz, 1 gig of ram. Any suggestions or thoughts? Thanks - David Bird

October 28th, 2005, 11:42 AM	#987
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	How large did you have the preview window? Hard drive defragged? Separate Hard drive? Anti-virus turned on? The Vegas FAQ: http://www.vasst.com/sony/default.aspx has lots of dropped frame suggestions. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

October 28th, 2005, 06:30 PM	#989
David Bird Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sikeston, Missouri, USA Posts: 118	Chroma Key - Can't see underlying track I have an avi on the upper track...it's been chroma keyed...and another track below. Can't see the lower track...I know I'm missing a setting.... ? David Bird

October 26th, 2005, 07:39 AM	#976
Tony Rockliff Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dunedin, Florida Posts: 70	If you have a track with a very few loud noises, it's usually better to isolate those points, split the events and lower the volume of each of those loud noises manually and then set the level of the overall track to where you want it in relation to the rest of the tracks. Compressors are very good for adding presence and clarity by putting everything to an average level but they also raise the volume of the lower levels so they can bring up noise and cause a pumping effect if there are big differences between the loud and quiet sounds. Limiters only affect the high volume sounds and if they are too high in relation to the rest of the track then it will sound squashed and unnatural at those points. Glenn's suggested settings are very good but will work better if you've manually tamed any large peaks beforehand. This is a trick used in the audio world to enable one to use compressors and limiters and still have them sound natural. Tony

October 26th, 2005, 08:38 AM	#977
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	"I also highly recommend monitoring your Vegas timeline via firewire on an external calibrated monitor so you can see the black levels more accurately." .. oh yes . . oh yes . . .

October 26th, 2005, 10:08 AM	#978
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Tony: The "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" is for converting from 16-235 space (blacks at 16, whites at 235) to 0-255 (blacks previously at 16 now end up at 0, whites previously at 235 end up at 255). It's not the appropriate filter for handling the 0 / 7.5IRE setup issue. Here's my explanation of the whole issue, and I hope it doesn't confuse you. Analog levels: Standard analog black level for non-Japan NTSC is 7.5IRE. For Japan it's 0 IRE. Standard white level is at 100IRE for both Japan and non-Japan NTSC. Digital levels: DV records in Y'CbCr format. Y' is the luma component and the legal range for those values is 16-235. If you are using the Sony DV codec, 16 on the histogram corresponds to a Y' value of 16. And 235 to 235. The Microsoft DV codec doesn't do this (which is why the Sony DV codec exists, I believe). The Microsoft codec does 0-255. When converting from digital to analog, a Y' value of 16 should be converted to 7.5 IRE for non-Japan NTSC. Not all North American equipment does this (most consumer equipment doesn't do this). Most equipment will put a Y' value of 16 at 0 IRE instead, which may not really look all that bad (increased contrast, loss of shadow detail, darker image [but most TVs make dark images look good]). It's bad if you are adjusting your video levels and trying to make things look better. There is a lot of confusing information on this subject out there, hopefully I'm not adding to the confusion. 2- I believe Japanese camcorders record black at proper digital black level (Y' = 16). I can check this when I go home. 3- Dale: Chances are, the range of light values in a scene exceed the contrast/exposure range your camera can capture. There's usually some specular reflection that is a lot brighter than everything else. Also, skies on a sunny day are problematic. I would not use a light meter. In video you can see your results instantly if you drag along a field monitor (a CRT-based one). Do not use a consumer monitor in this situation. Almost all of them are made to make pictures overly bright, which will make underexposed footage look good. And you're not going to catch that. You could probably calibrate the consumer monitor not to do that, but then they also do things to your picture which you may not know about (i.e. flesh tone correction, noise reduction, edge sharpening/enhancement, hue is probably slightly off). This gets into tricky issues, because a broadcast-grade monitor is supposed to be the standard and consumer equipment should fall around that standard. But consumer equipment, on average, is overly bright. It doesn't fall around the standards. A big advantage of a broadcast monitor is that they are easy to calibrate, and you know it won't have picture cheats like flesh tone correction. It's probably better to make things look good on a broadcast monitor than a consumer monitor.

October 26th, 2005, 10:49 AM	#979
Tony Rockliff Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dunedin, Florida Posts: 70	Hi Glenn, Thanks for the expanded explanation. I've often wondered why the preset was called "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" and have wondered if it was technically (or logically) the right tool. All I can say is that after extensive testing it is the tool that corrects the black level problems introduced by my particular system/hardware and software line. If I render using the Vegas Mainconcept or Procoder encoders after using that preset my DVDs come out with perfect black levels. If I don't they're washed-out. If I render using the TMPGEnc encoder I have to also select its CCIR601 expansion preset. I'm using a calibrated Panasonic broadcast monitor. Tony

October 26th, 2005, 01:01 PM	#980
DJ Kinney Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 277	Yeah, I got my terminology a little confused there. I don't want to CLIP my shadows, I want to COMPRESS them. O.K. So color curves it is. I'll be looking forward to the .veg. Thanks Glenn!

October 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM	#983
DJ Kinney Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 277	This is a perfect example of a time when what I mention in this thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=53385 would come in useful.

October 27th, 2005, 12:26 AM	#984
Ray Sigmond Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 119	Hey Dave: I purchased my Ultimate S 2.0 with Celluloid this morning!

October 28th, 2005, 04:52 PM	#988
David Bird Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sikeston, Missouri, USA Posts: 118	Preview window is less than 1/4 of the screen, hard drive has not been defragged...just installed it about 1 month ago. I have a separate 250 gig, 7500 rpm drive specifically installed for video footage...However, now that I think of it, the footage that was captured went to "My Documents" for some reason, which resides on my C: drive.... David Bird

October 31st, 2005, 02:27 PM	#990
Dan Barnhill New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: nyc Posts: 20	Vegas 5 Audio & Software Synths Hey All, Hope everyone is having a Happy Halloween. I've been using Vegas 5 to record audio for the last year or so and it works great. But I can't seem to find a way to record software synths directly into Vegas. For guitars, vox, foley work, I'm running into an Echo Mona which gets along with Vegas just fine. For soft syth things, I've got an M-audio midi keystation plugged via USB into the computer running M-audio Keyrig and a few other virtual synth programs. How do I set Vegas to capture those sounds? Any help, as always, is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Dan Barnhill