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Old April 1st, 2010, 09:17 PM   #1
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How optomisitc are you that Vegas 10 will be a major leap?

I think it's fair to call Vegas 9.0 relatively minor revision, or evolutionary rather than revolutionary. However, as much as I love how easy it is to use Vegas, I also feel its engine needs a major overhaul in order to take advantage of available technology, especially GPU assistance.

So I ask those here, do you think Sony is strongly committed to Vegas?

Do you think Vegas 10 will be a major leap forward, or just another medium-size step?
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Old April 1st, 2010, 09:44 PM   #2
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I'm going to reserve judgment until I see what they do with 9.0d.
It's going to be shown at NAB which is coming very soon so I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed that they get it right this time.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 12:17 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Paul Cascio View Post
...I also feel its engine needs a major overhaul in order to take advantage of available technology, especially GPU assistance.

So I ask those here, do you think Sony is strongly committed to Vegas?...
Well, you've equated lack of GPU support with non-commitment to the product. I guess what you're asking is, is Sony committed to your idea of what the next step is.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I could see this both ways, though. Vegas has come as far as it has by ignoring changing GPU standards. They really got DV right in V4. They really got HDV going sweet in V8. Is the next step a smarter decode of AVCHD/h.264/MPEG4? It sure seems like dependence on the QT engine is holding back the timeline performance of this latest batch of codecs.

Smarter decoding, or hardware assisted decoding? It's not so clear to me that GPU assist is the only answer, though CUDA sure sounds good.

I'm not quite sure what it is that DVFilm has pulled off with the Epic plugin. My testing seemed to show that these so-called "proxy files" that Epic creates are only 1K. If I'm not missing something there, that would indicate that the recode to DVCPROHD inside an MXF wrapper is happening on-the-fly, giving better timeline performance without hardware assist.

Just speculating - I don't know anything about this, other than that long history of Vegas doing all decoding in software.

***edit***
Just to make clear, Epic proxies or rewraps the h.264/QT from a Canon 5d/7d, greatly improving timeline performance with no waiting for proxy rendering. So it seems from the demo version.
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Last edited by Seth Bloombaum; April 2nd, 2010 at 12:45 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 01:47 AM   #4
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I'm not very optimistic and Vegas is my favorite NLE! If I had to put money down based on Sony's track record for developing new software (i.e. making a major leap) I'd have to bet against them. I do think Sony is strongly committed to Vegas, and they make great hardware. But when it comes to software, they seem to drop the ball more often than not. We'll probably see more incremental updates from Sony, but a "major leap forward" in software just doesn't seem to be in their "DNA".
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 01:09 PM   #5
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Not in their DNA - I got a good laugh from that one.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 01:17 PM   #6
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I bailed out on Premiere because I felt Vegas was better all around as an NLE. So if you are using Vegas on your PC, and have chosen it over others available-- including if the reason is because of a price advantage-- then how can you sit here downplay what Sony has done. You are using it above all others.... sounds like they are doing somehting right.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 03:33 PM   #7
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I bailed out on Premiere because I felt Vegas was better all around as an NLE. So if you are using Vegas on your PC, and have chosen it over others available-- including if the reason is because of a price advantage-- then how can you sit here downplay what Sony has done. You are using it above all others.... sounds like they are doing somehting right.
I jumped from Premiere 6.5 to Vegas 6 in 2003. That was a LONG time ago. Vegas was a fair product at a fair price, and it was a heck of a lot easier to use as a video newbie. From Version 6 to version 8 we lost Boris, lost Cineform, lost Acid, and lost stability. With 8 I got marginal support for my new EX1. With 9, I finally got DPX and EXR support, RED support, and full support for my EX1. But I lost a ton of stability for it. We got some NewBlue effects too.

When I jumped to Vegas there was no Edius. Canopus was in bed with Adobe and I was using the DVStorm2 hardware support. I even had hardware assisted Mpeg2 creation. Boy I'd like to have that now!

So where does Vegas sit now? Adobe and Avid are playing in a different market entirely. Both are more than twice the cost. Vegas' real competitor in the market is Edius which is $150 more. Vegas can do some thing Edius can't. Edius brings some things to the table Vegas doesn't. But with Edius about to add realtime support for H.264, it's going to look like a nice option for a lot of people. It's got a killer interface too. And apparently the upcoming version will finally be 10-bit capable. Vegas should still have Edius beat on the audio side, but honestly, will that be enough?

I understand that Vegas Pro is being bundled with some Sony cameras now. That's probably smart. It should also be bundled with Scarlet when it ships. It has the best RED workflow on a PC right now. But I honestly feel that if Vegas doesn't embrace SOME kind of hardware acceleration, they are going to fall further behind, and fail to be relevant. And that is NOT good.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 07:39 PM   #8
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But I honestly feel that if Vegas doesn't embrace SOME kind of hardware acceleration, they are going to fall further behind, and fail to be relevant. And that is NOT good.
I agree. I'm will be watching PP CS5 to see how well the Mercury / CUDA GPU engine actually works. I have never used PP. I know the stock answer when anyone asks about the advantage of PP is its integration with other Adobe products. That's nice, but other than that, what will PP do for me that I can't do in Vegas. I guess what I'm saying is; the Mercury engine sounds great but I would also like to see other advantages as well to changing. I'm quite familiar and proficient with Vegas. If I were to switch to PP, the initial awkwardness of a different UI is something I don't want to endure if the benefits of changing are just marginal.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 07:54 PM   #9
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Thanks Perrone. As usual, your comments are on target.

No on said Vegas wasn't our favorite NLE, but even if you're on the right track, you can still get run over.
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Old April 3rd, 2010, 11:27 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum View Post
I'm not quite sure what it is that DVFilm has pulled off with the Epic plugin. My testing seemed to show that these so-called "proxy files" that Epic creates are only 1K. If I'm not missing something there, that would indicate that the recode to DVCPROHD inside an MXF wrapper is happening on-the-fly, giving better timeline performance without hardware assist.
Thanks. What DVFilm EPIC does is smarter software decoding. It takes advantage of the fact that the typical editor spends a certain amount of time "head scratching" once the clips are either imported into the bin or dropped into the timeline.

During this time the CPUs are usually idle.

EPIC uses that idle CPU time to re-encode the clips into a real-time format, so that once timeline playback is needed, it can occur smoothly. However it is not transcoding or re-wrapping, because the original files are always used for your final render or for stepping through frames in close detail.

It's also different than the typical proxy method, where the proxy files must be made by the user ahead of time, before editing can begin.

Our idea was to call it the "Instant Edit" method. There's more info at Epic I by DVFilm
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Old April 3rd, 2010, 06:51 PM   #11
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I have been using Vegas since Vegas4, when sonic foundry owned Vegas it ran like a charm, never crashed on me once even if I tried, but now since Sony bought it and try to improve on it, it just made it worse it hangs, and it crashes.
don't get me wrong I still love Vegas I upgraded every time it comes out, I have Vegas9 still in the box afraid to install it from all the problem that I heard about it.
All I hope is the next version will have a better DNA !!
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Old April 3rd, 2010, 09:28 PM   #12
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I'm reasonably satisfied with Vegas Pro 8.0C because I'm finally decently proficient with it, works well with my Sony XDCAMs and Blu-ray, and has great audio skills.

But if Sony is listening and wants ME to continue buying it, they need to satisfy PERRONE, because quite honestly, I'm scared to death of 9.0 because SONY HAVE NOT FIXED ANYTHING!

Still, far too many complaints about not working properly (green frames, red frames, black frames or whatever) with the Nanoflash MXF. Also memory utilization problems, and unsupported features in the 64 bit. That's just crazy. 9.0 is beta. Sony owes a fix to those owners before offering a version 10 for sale. And if they don't, it will just convince me that they have no intention of ever getting serious, so why should I?
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Old April 3rd, 2010, 10:07 PM   #13
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But if Sony is listening and wants ME to continue buying it, they need to satisfy PERRONE, because quite honestly, I'm scared to death of 9.0 because SONY HAVE NOT FIXED ANYTHING!
I don't know that I am their target user. But I probably SHOULD be. I was shocked when they added real support for RED and support for a DPX workflow. It was a HUGE step forward for the indie filmmaker. But as I've said on numerous occasions, Vegas needs to define who it is.

If they intend to try and appease broadcast, they they need to to step up to the plate with quicktime support. Macs are a significant part of the broadcast market and compatibility is crucial. It would also help if they'd add the few things needed to really prep for broadcast. Like captioning support, pre-roll basics, title card creation and some REAL media management options.

If they intend to appease the indie film market, then finding a way to quickly support newer camera options that indie's are using is critical. The step up to RED was significant. But missing the boat on the Canon's has really been problematic. It's been over a year now and there is still no adequate support.

The things I would like to see in Vegas 10 to get me to spend more money on it are:

1. Increased stability when working with larger HD projects.

2. Leveraging a GPU. Particularly the CUDA processor in the Nvidia cards.

3. A *real* solution for handling the H.264 files out of the Canon cameras.

4. Adding captioning ability to Vegas. Doesn't have to be close captions, but that would be a terrific bonus for those trying to prep for broadcast.

5. A searchable database with the metadata from today's card based cameras.

There are a number of other options I'd love to see, but these would be enough to get me to spend money again.

Without #1, #2, and #4, my time with Vegas will come to an end. At least for work product. I'll keep it for indie film projects because of the RED support. At least until Avid comes up with something as good.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 05:19 AM   #14
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These conversations and arguments seem familiar!

yes, thats right, these are the same arguements that were made going from 8 to 9. And now here we are again having them going to 10.

I use 8.0c, didn't upgrade to 9 as I wanted to wait a few patches/releases for it to be stable as seems to be the norm with Vegas upgrades. Admit haven't bought 9, thought a lot about it, couldn't yet justify it.

What does this mean? We all use Vegas, we all love it's workflow, we love its ability to mix up the timeline formats, we all love the audio options, we get jacked with instability, though this always proves to be a non constant problem as some never have them, we want certain codec support, we want more powerful titling etc thats stable and user friendly, we all want better preview support with gpu utilization?

I don't know, but I suggest that we'll be visiting this type of thread going from version 10 to 11 if it's still around then. Everybody here by the way I agree with your arguments and by no way are having a go, but you know how it is, you see these threads on forums, and we all contribute thinking, maybe, just maybe one of the king pins from such a such a company is reading and cares. But the reality, with the exception of Convergient design, red and JVC and panasonic, is no one (I believe) who has the power to make the decisions reads these threads, and thus we never see the desired change.

Maybe what we need is a petition (maybe chaired by dvinfo?) which is has the list of needs/wants, and we send it to whoever is high up enough to have some pull, and sort of make them realise how they need to evolve to stay afloat with this product? Or to ensure future followers??

I might stand corrected of course, but it's just the way I see it, Chris, how many users actually follow Vegas threads? Can you ascertain those kind of stats? It might give us more of a indication of what sort of numbers we would get on the petition?
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Old April 5th, 2010, 08:39 AM   #15
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...but you know how it is, you see these threads on forums, and we all contribute thinking, maybe, just maybe one of the king pins from such a such a company is reading and cares. But the reality, with the exception of Convergient design, red and JVC and panasonic, is no one (I believe) who has the power to make the decisions reads these threads, and thus we never see the desired change.

Maybe what we need is a petition (maybe chaired by dvinfo?) which is has the list of needs/wants, and we send it to whoever is high up enough to have some pull, and sort of make them realise how they need to evolve to stay afloat with this product? Or to ensure future followers??

I might stand corrected of course, but it's just the way I see it, Chris, how many users actually follow Vegas threads? Can you ascertain those kind of stats? It might give us more of a indication of what sort of numbers we would get on the petition?
Just a couple comments on this. I spent a LOT of time hammering on threads here and in other forums about how Vegas needed to really pick up the RED support and add DPX support if it wanted to make ANY inroads into the film market. I was shocked that got done. And they even added EXR support which REALLY shocked me as I wasn't expecting that.

The real issue, is that it seems SCS has added the things it can without a major re-write. But the idea of increased stability, a different preview engine, leveraging CUDA, and those types of things is going to demand a re-write. Maybe we'll get that with 10. Maybe not. If not, then I suspect we'll see some migration away from Vegas by some long time users. In fact, it's already beginning to happen.

As Federal Rule 508 really starts to get pressed, captioning videos will take on more and more importance. For those of us in Govt. video, it's a binary decision. No captions, no video. Period. So the inability of Vegas to do it, is a showstopper and means it cannot be used for my work. To give you an idea of how I have to work around this, I essentially have to take my caption files into DVDA, create a DVD with subtitles, then bring that DVD back into Vegas and use THAT to create my deliverables. This is totally unacceptable. Even Youtube lets me upload a caption file that can sync my video to captions.

So I hope someone is reading. In addition, I was able to bend the ear of the Vegas project manager recently and shared some of these concerns. They are aware of the issues, the question is whether they have the manpower and time to fix them.
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