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Old April 21st, 2010, 08:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Stanislav View Post
Vegas is so easy to use. I don't understand why anyone would use anything else.
This is absolutely indicative of the issue.

"Easy to use" is not the primary criteria I have for selecting my applications for any use.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 09:10 PM   #32
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On the other hand, you would not want to use a program that requires a Ph.D in rocket science just to even use the most basic of its functions. (This means that a person of even extensive experience spent years or even decades trying to use that software, only to have it not work properly or at all due to usability issues rather than bugs.)

Fortunately, very few pieces of software are so difficult to use that they would frustrate even the most experienced of users. The most complex of NLEs are difficult initially, but fairly easy to use with some experience.

With that said, I found Vegas a bit limiting on a lot of personal video projects that I use the NLE for. I still use it - but as of now, only for the selection and conversion of audio tracks which had been extracted from the video clips.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 09:13 PM   #33
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I like Vegas. I've just loaded 9d and its working fine (in tandem with NeoScene for DSLR footage).
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Old April 21st, 2010, 09:39 PM   #34
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This is a bit of a wacky thread.

I used Premiere from Version 4.0 through P.Pro, 1.0 but then one of my jobs required the use of Sony Vegas 7.0 and I haven't gone back. I think Vegas has the most intuitive interface, a wide variety of built-in tools that let you do "enough" without having to resort to a plugin or another piece of software, and it's relatively inexpensive.

I've used it to edit DV, HDV, and AVCHD. My only beef with this software is that they still haven't satisfactorily programmed it to utilize all the computer resources to run the preview window.


I'm particularly impressed with the multi-camera editing. I had a project with four cameras, and it was like live switching a show, but if you mess up you can control-z and do it again. Very cool.

As for red frames or whatever, that usually has to do with the files that you're feeding it. There was probably something garbled while capturing. This has only happened to me with M2T files from my HDV camera or my firestore, and what fixes it is running it through the free mpeg repair program that was recommended to me on here.

I've never had it crash in the ways described, either on my Pentium 4 system, or my current Quad-core 64bit Vista Machine, even when editing the four-camera, 2hr concert.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 10:23 PM   #35
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Good evening,

What an interesting read this thread has been!

At this point the only nle I have not really used was Avid, I tried the demo out for a short time.

Today Vegas is my primary editor, I love it in many ways.

I seem to be able to make any program crash at some point, probably should make myself a set a protocal of method that runs smootly.

I have also moved with Edius, and the reasons are obvious for longer more complex projects and real time play back in full resolution (it is nice usually not essential, but essential when under heavy load of cc, graphics and animations). Yes, the gui is not real nice, but it is wizard in its own way.

I am pretty convinced most problems are caused by the individual computers more than the software.

What really should be talked about is how to make our computers more software compatible!!!!

Even though I can't use the 64 bit d I still believe the aforementioned.



Dale Guthormsen

stil using 8.o c and 9.0c 32 bit, on my 64 bit power house.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 10:53 PM   #36
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As I said, the fonts in Edius are way too small. Maybe if I was still twenty with perfect vision I could still use Edius. As I am turning 60 in just a few hours, I find Edius completely impossible to use. Not just hard, impossible. To me it is more important that the software does the job than that it looks fancy. There is a good reason why operating systems have a standardized interface. Fancy skins not only make it hard (and for some of us impossible) to use, they also consume unnecessary resources, waste memory and slow everything down.

As it is, all professional NLEs do the job. I'd much rather do the job with software that does it quickly without too many complications. That is why I use Vegas.

The question was whether Vegas is a good all-rounder software. The answer is yes, it is. It does not do everything, but no software does. The only time I find it frustrating is when working on 3D projects. I wrote my own plug-ins for that and find it limiting in the 3D area because there are things I cannot do with it, not even with my own plug-ins. But then, Sony has never claimed Vegas was a 3D editor. I will probably end up writing my own 3D editor from scratch eventually. But Vegas is a great all-rounder NLE.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 11:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Stanislav View Post
As I said, the fonts in Edius are way too small. Maybe if I was still twenty with perfect vision I could still use Edius. As I am turning 60 in just a few hours, I find Edius completely impossible to use. Not just hard, impossible.
You do realize you can manipulate the system fonts right? But in any event, I COMPLETELY agree about programs being impossible to work in. Really cramps your day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Stanislav View Post
To me it is more important that the software does the job than that it looks fancy.
Couldn't agree more. Which is why it's so frustrating when loading footage into Vegas causes the program to hang (9.0d), or dropping jpegs on the timeline cause red/black frames (9.0, 9.0a, 9.0c), rendering long-GOP codecs on the timeline produces out of memory errors on machines with 8GB of RAM or more (all flavors of V9), preview window cannot play back even one stream of long-gop 1080p footage with effects applied (V8.x, V9.x), timeline shows ghosts of projects that are no longer loaded, especially text(V9.0/9.0a) etc. These are well documented and acknowledged problems by Sony. Check the knowlegebase. They are there. Check the SCS forums, they are there.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 11:36 PM   #38
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Tell you what. Rather than argue the point of whether Vegas 9 has significant issues or not, or whether these issues are just "rogue machines with bad hardware on installations", I'll refer you to the release notes for V9.0d which gives the updates and fixes along the 9.x path.

Referenced document is available here: Sony Creative Software Inc. - Vegas Release Notes

For Brevity, I will omit feature enhancements, and only list bug fixes:

V 9.0a

# Fixed an issue using some Generic MIDI controllers that used polyphonic aftertouch.
# Fixed a Video Capture issue that was recreating default capture directory.
# Fixed an undo issue that could occur when Preferences > Display > Automatically hide docking area was enabled.
# Fixed an issue that prevented the Video Preview from updating immediately if the project field order was changed.
# Fixed an issue with incorrect generated media (e.g. Text) settings being used when switching between projects that were created from a common project (using Save As).
# Fixed an issue that could cause incorrect behavior if multiple clips were loaded into the Trimmer from the Vegas Explorer.
# Fixed an issue with Import from Hard Disk Recording Unit where only the first clip would appear in the Project Media window.
# Fixed an issue with Import from Hard Disk Recording Unit with files with discontinuous timestamps.
# Fixed an issue where subclip comments were not being preserved when media was relinked during load.
# Fixed an issue where media comments were not being preserved when media was copied with the project.
# Fixed an issue with supplying time information to some VST plug-ins.
# Fixed an issue where using Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX with the Simple Delay plug-in was not including the effect tail.
# Fixed an issue with Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX using monophonic sources.
# Fixed an issue with tempo-synchronized effects when used with Apply Non-Real-Time Event FX renders.
# Fixed an issue in the MPEG-2 reader that could cause black frames in certain cases.
# Fixed an issue which could cause crashes with Windows Media Video (WMV) content.
# Fixed a freeze that could occur previewing MOV files on an external display via IEEE 1394/DV.
# Fixed an issue that prevented smart rendering from being used when rendering MXF DV to AVI DV.
# Fixed an issue with running out of memory during AVCHD rendering.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Video Preview to freeze when using IEEE 1394/DV external monitoring.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the frame to turn white when using Best mode, Track Motion, and 32-bit floating point pixel format.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash during rendering with certain audio plug-ins.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash while opening certain MP3 files.
# Fixed an issue reading certain MP3 metadata.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a freeze when using the Video Preview Split Screen View feature with Clipboard contents.
# Fixed an issue that would not show correct preview during fast forward/fast reverse during HDV capture preview.
# Fixed an issue that could cause incorrect playback with clips from certain Panasonic HDV cameras.
# Fixed slow startup times for users with many FX packages.
# Fixed a rendering freeze when using Acoustic Mirror on a bus.
# Fixed an issue with video event masks not rendering in the correct location.
# Fixed a crash rendering MainConcept AVC with the Two-pass check box selected.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when using Undo while dragging a pan/crop rectangle.
# Fixed live update of Video Preview while changing RED File Format Properties in the 64-bit version of Vegas Pro.
# Fixed a problem reading multichannel audio from RED camera files.
# Fixed a render freeze with certain projects.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when attempting to record if the drive containing your recorded files folder is offline.
# Fixed issues with custom templates in Print to Tape and XDCAM Explorer export.
# Fixed an issue with partial conforms in the XDCAM Explorer.
# Fixed an issue with rendering surround projects to multiple mono files.
# Fixed an issue that prevented stereo render templates from being displayed for 5.1 surround projects.
# Fixed an issue with Center control resetting to 0.0 dB (if it was over 0.0 dB) after moving the pan position.
# Fixed an issue with trying to save 32-bit files as FLAC; we now limit these to 24-bit.
# Fixed an issue that caused other file types to be displayed when All Project and Media Files was selected in the Files of type drop-down list.
# Fixed an issue that prevented .veg files from being displayed in the Import Media dialog under Windows XP.
# Fixed an issue rendering 32-bit floating-point project to DPX format if the project contained levels above full brightness.
# Fixed an issue opening some FLAC files.
# Fixed performance issue reading CineForm media when Video Preview is in set to Half or Quarter size (or Auto when it uses these sizes).
# Fixed an issue with certain large images not scaling correctly (resulting in slightly reduced quality).
# Fixed an issue with the ProType Titler not using character animation if you closed the property page while editing the text.
# Fixed a video resampling (e.g., velocity envelope) issue with certain combinations of source media and project formats when Adjust source media to better match project or render settings is enabled.
# Fixed an issue with event mask feather amount jumping in certain cases while panning across an image.
# Fixed an issue that resulted in very dark levels for certain DPX files.
# Fixed an issue reading XDCAM HD422 proxy files generated with newer deck firmware.
# Fixed a crash that could occur saving a customized keyboard map.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a crash when running the application with the Device Explorer window open and certain optical discs (such as Blu-ray Disc media) loaded.
# Fixed an issue with rendering to AVI using a custom template when the audio format was set to anything other than "uncompressed."
# Fixed an issue in capture entering timecode when the device's dropframe/non-dropframe state differs from the previous clip.
# Fixed an issue reading MXF templates from previous versions.
# Fixed an issue with Mixing Console fader positions when switching between automation and trim modes.
# Fixed an issue with the Text generator that caused the Outline and Shadow settings to revert to the default values when turning off the effect.
# Fixed an issue that could prevent the 64-bit version of Vegas from prompting you to save your project when shutting down Windows.


V 9.0b

* Resolved an issue that could cause the contents of media generators (most often text generators) to change when the Undo command was used.
* Fixed a bug that could cause Vegas to crash during startup on some computers running Windows XP.
* Fixed a bug that could cause still images to appear out of focus when rotated via Event Pan/Crop.
* Fixed a bug that could cause audio dropouts in XDCAM SD (DVCAM) MXF files.
* Fixed a bug that could cause an error when conforming trimmed XDCAM clips on the PDW-U1 deck.
* Fixed a bug that prevented some QuickTime files from reading audio properly.
* Fixed a bug that prevented metadata from being imported with 720-50p XDCAM clips.


V 9.0c

# Fixed an issue where XDCAM EX essence markers were not displayed for clips imported using the Device Explorer.
# Fixed an issue reading QuickTime audio when using QuickTime 7.6.4.
# Fixed a crash when displaying the Audio tab for QuickTime templates when using QuickTime 7.6.4.
# Fixed an issue that could cause certain large clips of XDCAM (MXF) audio to have small dropouts.
# General compatibility improvements to XDCAM HD MXF files.
# Fixed and issue with smart rendering MXF/DV content to AVI/DV format.
# Fixed an issue with saving a project with trimmed MXF/DV media.
# Fixed an issue where the audio proxy for nested projects might not fully render.
# Fixed a crash that could occur while creating a custom AVI render template.
# Improved audio/video sync in Sony AVC and MainConcept AVC.
# Fixed an issue with AVCHD markers not appearing in the correct location.
# Fixed a hang that could occur rendering AVCHD with AC-3 audio.
# Fixed an issue reading certain AVC files (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue creating a template with a custom bit rate in MainConcept AVC/AAC.
# Fixed an issue rendering certain projects to MainConcept AVC/AAC (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue with removing 2-3 pulldown from AVI/DV 24p sources.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Windows Secondary Monitor to display incorrectly after performing a prerender.
# Fixed an issue with prerender or print to tape to certain progressive formats when media generators are used without effects or compositing.
# Fixed an issue that could cause a glitch in the audio if two envelope points were at the same location.
# Fixed image preview during HDV capture (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue where 64-bit VST plug-ins would not appear (64-bit version).
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Vegas90.exe process to remain in Task Manager after closing Vegas (Windows XP only).
# Fixed Project Media window Timecode In/Timecode Out fields to not use project ruler offset.
# Fixed an issue that could cause events created using Render to New Track to be misaligned if Quantize to Frames was enabled.
# Fixed an issue that could cause the Add as CD Track command to create events without media for some file types.
# Fixed an issue with setting the recording path in the Project Properties dialog.
# Fixed an issue that could cause Open Copy in Sound Forge to change the audio bit depth of the resulting take.
# Fixed an issue with DPX file row padding.

V 9.0d

# Fixed a crash that could occur during startup when using the 64-bit version of the application with certain RAID controllers.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when adding certain audio effects to the Master Bus FX chain.
# Fixed a hang that could occur while changing FX parameters with an external DV monitor enabled.
# Fixed a hang that could occur when using 32-bit VST audio effects in the 64-bit version of the application.
# Fixed a hang that could occur after capturing HDV clips.
# Fixed field order in reader for certain H.264 files.
# Fixed Import Stereo as Dual Mono when dragging media from the Device Explorer window.
# Fixed a smart render issue with XDCAM HD.
# Fixed a smart render issue with MXF PAL DV rendered to AVI PAL DV.
# Fixed timecode reading for 50p and 60p XDCAM MXF media.
# Fixed an issue with waveform drawing accuracy when very quiet events are normalized.
# Fixed an issue that could prevent audio from appearing for certain AVI files.
# Fixed a crash that could occur when rendering many markers to Sony MXF format.
# Fixed a bug that could cause clicks when using certain Track EQ automation settings.
# Fixed an issue where deleting one Track Motion preset could cause others to be removed.
# Fixed a slight artifact that could occur when using the Broadcast Colors video effect.
# Improved support for VST audio plug-ins written in Delphi.
# Fixed a problem that could cause summary data to be lost when using custom Windows Media Video rendering templates.
# Fixed a problem with enabling the audio stream when using custom Windows Media Video rendering templates.
# Fixed the ability to capture from HDCA-702 MPEG TS Adaptor.
# Fixed the ability to render to multiple mono files using PCA format.
# Fixed the ability to seek in files rendered using the MainConcept AAC/AVC format.
# Fixed a problem that could cause corrupt video when rendering to QuickTime format using the 3 Mbps Video template.
# Fixed the operation of the Proportional check box in the Checkerboard generator plug-in.
# Fixed an issue with media generators not using a changed pixel aspect ratio.
# Fixed an issue saving and restoring templates in the Command Properties dialog.
# Fixed an issue that prevented JPEG from being used to save image sequences.
# Fixed an issue with Trimmer Fit-to-Fill not creating the correct media start time.
# Fixed an issue with scrubbing in reverse past the media start time in the Trimmer.
# Fixed issue with Event Pan/Crop Match Output Aspect when Adjust source media to better match project or render settings applied to the source media.
# Fixed an issue that prevented markers from appearing in the correct position for rendered FLAC files.
# Corrected a problem that could cause black frames in MOV files after installing the QuickTime 7.6.6 update.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 11:40 PM   #39
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Continued:

3.0 Known Issues

* Windows Vista® manages memory significantly differently than Windows XP. In some situations of high memory use by Sony Creative Software products, performance can suffer. The effects are more pronounced when working with media that requires large amounts of memory such as HDV.

Microsoft has released an update for Windows Vista that alleviates some of this behavior. More information on the update is available from Microsoft: How to improve the performance and reliability of Windows Vista if you cannot upgrade to Windows Vista Service Pack 1
* The Windows Media Audio 9 Voice codec is not included with the Windows Media Player 11 update. If you've installed Windows Media Player 11, rendering to Windows Media Audio 9 format will produce an error. For more information, please refer to Knowledge Base article 932390 on the Microsoft Help and Support site.
* If you are printing a rendered file to HDV tape, the file must precisely conform to the target HDV device and file type requirements, or the print-to-tape operation will fail. Rendering using the provided HDV MPEG-2 render templates—unmodified in any way—is required to successfully print to HDV tape.
* Vegas Pro templates for rendering multichannel audio in .wav/.wav64, .avi, and .mxf formats may be visible in other Sony Creative Software Inc. applications that do not support multichannel audio. Using these templates in other applications will not produce the desired result and should be avoided.
* If you do not have the Microsoft .NET Framework installed before installing Vegas Pro 9, you may — under some conditions — be unable to log on to your computer if you log off and then attempt to log on again without rebooting. Rebooting your computer will allow you to log on, run, and register Vegas Pro 9.
* Under some uncommon conditions on multiprocessor machines, you may encounter stability problems when using some Waves 5.2 plug-ins. In most cases, the stability issues can be resolved by clearing the Enable track buffering check box in Vegas Pro 9 (Options > Preferences > Audio Device).
* You may not be able to render files larger than 4 GB using some combinations of settings in the Sony AVC encoder.
* If you have multiple Sony applications (such as ACID, Sound Forge, CD Architect, etc.) installed, uninstalling other Sony applications may cause your audio plug-ins to be removed from Vegas Pro. To restore your audio plug-ins, uninstall and reinstall Vegas Pro.
* When the Show Video Monitor button in the Trimmer window is selected, video that you preview from the Vegas Explorer and Media Manager windows is played back in the Trimmer. Because the Trimmer is placed in the same window dock as the Explorer and Media Manager, you will not see your video preview. To preview Explorer and Media Manager video, you can drag the Trimmer to a new dock group, or you can turn off the Show Video Monitor button to preview in the Video Preview window.
* The Step Forward and Step Backward buttons in the Capture window are not supported by all HDV devices.
* If your project contains still-image sequences or segmented .r3d files, do not select the Copy media with project check box in the Save As dialog. Some frames or segments may not be saved when this check box is selected.
* The following features are not available in the 64-bit version of Vegas 9.0. If you need to use the following features, you can share projects between 32- and 64-bit versions of Vegas 9.0 installations, performing editing as needed in 32-bit Vegas 9.0 and finishing the project in 64-bit Vegas 9.0:
o Rendering templates created in 32-bit Vegas 9.0 are not available in 64-bit Vegas 9.0.
o Cinescore support is not available.
o Gracenote support is not available.
o AAF import and export are not available.
o Third-party plug-ins will work only if they are 64-bit plug-ins. Please check with the plug-in vendor for available updates.





These are only the acknowledged issues. Various users have submitted other serious issues yet which have not been formally acknowledged.

Clearly SCS is trying. But just as clearly, 9.X was not ready for primetime upon release and has cause major headaches from numerous users. You don't get this kind of list from a few rogue internet users moaning on the internet forums...
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 01:31 AM   #40
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I have been using Vegas for a couple of years and I find that's its perfect for my needs. I totally agree with what Edward Troxel has said in all his previous posts. If it works for you then that's really all that matters. FCP, Premier, Edius, Vegas they all do the same thing, it's wise to know a little about every one of them, you never know for who you will be editing.

Workflow elements I like is that I can open Vegas no questions about project name or where you want to save it, the software just opens and is ready to go. Drag and drop all my files into the timeline which gives me an instant view of all my footage so I know exactly where everything is. The rest is simply standard NLE, the only thing I would like is After Effects communication.

I have given thought to switching to other software packages like Edius or Final Cut but I'm spoiled with "Excalibur" - a automated powerhouse. I can't edit without the automation that Excalibur offers to Vegas, nor can I imagine editing in any other platform without the automation of scripting. So in essence Edward Troxel you ruined me for other platforms with Excalibur.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 04:21 AM   #41
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thanks to everyone

WOW so many opinions...
I am having a hard time finding a store that sells Vegas 8c, but as I am not an advanced editor I think I might start with Vegas (the other option would be to switch and buy a mac pro and use Final Cut Pro, but I don't want to open a can of worns : ) )

from what I understand (and because I will be using the Z1 and/or the EX1r) I will be needing Cineform Neoscene right?
is it really needed even with the EX1?
will it be crucial to get the intermediate codec in my situation?
would you guys think that using Sony Vegas on an Apple Machine (that runs windows too) would be more stable than the on a PC?

many thanks
Fed
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 04:36 AM   #42
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Federico you don't need Cineform for the EX1, I edit raw EX1 footage all the time in Vegas with no hassles. Cineform only becomes useful when you edit 5D/7D footage. If you have the money for a Mac Pro buy one it's worth the money and will run Windows beautifully with the added benefit of the Mac OS also available to you. If you are on a tight budget a powerful PC running Windows 7 is as stable as a Mac.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 04:36 AM   #43
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I think to sum it all up, YES Vegas is perhaps the best all around software for Video editing, in other words, if you had to restrict the yourself to a single application, Vegas probably does more things well than any of its neighbors. It's also the cheapest and the easiest to use. One caveat: Never go past version 8.0c unless you love drama in your life.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 05:40 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas de Kock View Post
Federico you don't need Cineform for the EX1, I edit raw EX1 footage all the time in Vegas with no hassles. Cineform only becomes useful when you edit 5D/7D footage. If you have the money for a Mac Pro buy one it's worth the money and will run Windows beautifully with the added benefit of the Mac OS also available to you. If you are on a tight budget a powerful PC running Windows 7 is as stable as a Mac.

thanks Nicholas: just to be clear - if I buy a Mac Pro and run Windows 7 with Vegas 8c, will I be able to use an external bluray player?
does Vegas 8c support it?
I ask because I read some users saying Vegas 8c doesn't allow rendering full HD on AVCHD files....but should be fine with Mpeg 2 I suppose

also: does Vegas 8c fully work with EX1 raw files (mp4)? I read different opinions
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 07:05 AM   #45
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Yes an external blu-ray will work fine with a Mac running Windows. I'm currently running Vegas 9d except for the extremely long load time on projects it's okay. To encode and make menu's for blu-ray I use Adobe Encore, brilliant software. DVD Architect from Sony is not the best software for this.
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