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Old March 3rd, 2011, 03:05 AM   #16
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

no offence taken in the least little bit ;-)

and i thoroughly enjoy your posts too - now we've got our mutual admiration out the way.....

it's time to buckle down and carry on hoping ALL our various beefs are sorted out in 10d.

as it is, i'm having no problems with 10c - other than those already mentioned.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 07:31 AM   #17
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

I don't completely agree that using Looks makes you lazy. You're certainly lazy if you just use the presets - and that's why so many productions that have used Looks appear overprocessed. Used intelligently and sparingly Looks can greatly improve the appearance of video without being too in your face or obviously 'Looks-ized'.

Looks also offers a ton of repair functionality which is invaluable, especially when working with other people's footage. And (personally) I can get great results quicker than with using native Vegas plugins. For me, if it saves time I make more margin on a job (I mainly produce business to business videos, case studies, promos etc. I have also produced keep fit DVDs, documentaries, oh yes, and a couple of event videos!).

I would like to add that Looks is about more than just, er, looks. It contains a good number of specific tools that are extremely useful and usable - Spot Exposure, Grad exposure, Spot Fill, Diffusion, for example, as well as more exotic effects such as Anamorphic Flare, Chromatic Aberration, Swing Tilt, Shutter Streak, Telecine Net.

Not all of these these are found in other plugin sets (to the best of my knowledge) or are achievable using native Vegas plugins. Looks tools are also extremely configurable, allowing you to be very subtle or totally over the top, depending on your taste (and ability).

Whether it's good value for money is pretty subjective, I guess, and I fall in line with the 'do I really need it?' and 'will my business improve?' camps with all these things. (Unfortunately I convince myself every time!). For the advanced hobbyist, sure take the time to learn how to do it 'properly'. You'll have a much deeper understanding of how it works than I ever will have (or need). Personally I need to make as much money out of each project as I can in order to pay the mortgage and I do that by getting jobs done quicker. I'm with Jeff and his car wash analogy! I would go further and say why use a car when you can walk? Because sometimes you need to.

All that is in defence of Looks (to be clear, I am talking about the latest version of Looks that works on Vegas - v 1.4.2 - not the cut down version that came with Vegas some versions ago. 1.4.2 works fine on Vegas 10/32 bit, by the way).

On the negative side, it is very disappointing that Red Giant isn't offering Vegas support any more. NewBlue offers a fine alternative (perhaps not quite as refined as Looks) and a much broader toolset - and it's 64 bit and/or OFX. I was quite happily using both Looks and NewBlue's tools together when I was in 32-bit land but since moving to 64 bit Vegas I have used Looks only on rare occasions. I wonder if an OFX version is a possibility?

Please note I have a relationship with NewBlue in that I write tutorials for them.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:18 AM   #18
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

Well said Ian. I used MB very effectively, in particular for one project in which I achieved an absolutely stunning look by adjusting one their settings, which I would have not come up with on my own. I didn't even know what I wanted, but MB took me right there. I've tried to recreate the look since without MB and haven't yet come close.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:26 AM   #19
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
Well said Ian. I used MB very effectively, in particular for one project in which I achieved an absolutely stunning look by adjusting one their settings, which I would have not come up with on my own.
EXACTLY!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
I didn't even know what I wanted, but MB took me right there. I've tried to recreate the look since without MB and haven't yet come close.
EXACTLY x 2!!!!

And I can do it in front of a client too, and NOT loose face. In fact they think it's rather cool.

I was sold on MB when I first saw that demo of the couple.

I've used it just like a pallette. The same way I use VEGAS.

Grazie
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 08:37 AM   #20
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

That raises another interesting point.

Many of us that lurk on these forums can spot videos that have been 'Looks-ed' a mile off and some of us might frown on it and say "Yup. Looks. Too many folks doing it" [sound of tobacco juice being spat into a can].

But our clients probably have no idea, have never heard of Looks, and almost certainly could not care less - but if they are happy with the end result and think you've worked wonders . . . . . then I don't care either!
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:07 PM   #21
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Secrest View Post
Makes you lazy. You don't need it.
What do you mean it "makes you lazy"??? The company has stated that it's a good baseline to work off of and you can tweak it to suit your needs. I mean, just because something eliminates a few steps doesn't make the person lazy. That's like saying you should stick to land line telephones, because using a cell phone makes you too lazy to call from the house.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 02:05 AM   #22
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

It's like Ian says, Magic Bullet is a powerful tool when used properly. I don't use presets, personally I hate the look of over processed videos I try and keep my look as natural as possible. Magic Bullet does something that just makes skin tones look better and the images pop. I've tried reproducing the look using color correction but it's not the same. I have spent more money on plug-ins for Vegas than the actual cost of Vegas, it's false to assume there is no market for Vegas. I've made a big effort to switch over to CS5 for it's support however once you've grown accustomed to the ease that Vegas offers it's very difficult to compromise.

Hobbyists are some of the biggest spenders, Red Giant is losing out on a huge market, imagine if Singular Software that created Plural Eyes had the same attitude. Vegas now supports OFX adapting Magic Bullet or Colorista shouldn't be that hard if they changed their attitudes towards the market.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 07:32 AM   #23
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

So please everyone who uses MBL -- get on the horn and tell them how you feel about losing support! I am incredibly disappointed by this news. It is one tool that I find indispensable -- and use (to some degree) pretty much all of the time. The spot exposure and grad exposure in particular are excellent for 're-lighting.' I like to create very dramatic/stylized looks (sometimes) and nothing out there comes close in terms of its tool pallet.

here's some of my work that uses MBL to various degrees (via Vegas):
Jimmy Allen's Channel on Vimeo

I hate to say it, but may have to look to other NLEs or find another app/plug that can do what MBL does... sad day.

Another thought -- MBL was/is a real Vegas killer -- it really brings it to its knees. I've never been happy about that. Real time previews -- forget it -- even with my i7 980,,,
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Old March 11th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #24
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

Users vote with their dollars, and I imagine the market for Vegas users is too small for RG, bottom line. They've done promotional stuff, included it with Vegas at one time as a promotional thing.

My guess: not enough pros using Vegas who will spend $$ on such a specific tool set. NewBlue offers a wider range of products at lower prices, and they don't bring Vegas to a crawl. I'm not praising NewBlue, but they found where the demand was, and they are meeting it and making sales as a result.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 08:21 AM   #25
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

It's easy enough to assume that Red Giant did the business model.

It hard to know what factors they considerd. Maybe if they feel, like a lot of companies, that if selling into Vegas, even at a price point with decent return, it'd poise a downward effect on pricing for platforms that some people with their noses in the air feel have more "catchet".

I just have doubts that sales into vegas weren't profitable by themselves.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 08:34 AM   #26
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

It was interesting that they only sold Looks to Vegas users, no other product from the beginning, unless I'm mistaken. At least not much more than Looks.

Whatever the reason, Gene, it is clear Vegas seemed to be an afterthought from day one.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 11:54 AM   #27
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

Whatever the reason, Gene, it is clear Vegas seemed to be an afterthought from day one.


My thoughts precisely! Nothing more than an experiment.


Something to look at - if you go an look at RG's product compatibility matrix on their website- you notice that product hosts (for an application) tend to cluster about - very little wide compatibility. It's as if they have a lot of platform-specific development silos, but not much of an engineering effort on crossplatform development - and that's an issue that's very hard to address anywhere but upfront. Reengineering is costly.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 12:00 PM   #28
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

An experiment, good way of putting it!
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Old March 12th, 2011, 07:21 AM   #29
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

I wish there was a way to get an official response from Red Giant, they simple don't reply any of my emails regarding Vegas. What or rather how much money would it take for them to start considering developing for Vegas? If the money was raised via Kickstarter for example would they do it? I really don't want to switch NLE's because of one plug-in.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 08:36 AM   #30
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Re: Red Giant dumps Vegas?

They have already made things clear, IMO.
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