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Old June 12th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #1
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Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

As I already wrote in earlier thread, I get crashes in Vegas 10d everytime I try to open and increase timeline area with a 90`documentary project with Cineform (Neoscene or Neo) + Sony MXF + JPEG photo codecs (35mbits/s).
Vegas 9e doesn`show this behavior, but stops render randomly along the process.
But with both versions I can`t render the full project. There are always a failure.
The most often is one or two or some black frames that apear RAMDOMLY ALONG THE RENDERED FILE, independently which codec I chose to render to. And this occurs when I split the timeline to render it in 23`parts because I can`t render the full project.
Other times, again ramdomly, the render stops in a specific frame of the timeline. If I repeat the render, it will stop in the same frame.
If I change this event in timeline (time, do a transition, etc) it won`t stop in this frame again, but can choose another one or introduce black frames.
I don`t know what to do, because I`ve tried everything I could.
I `m fed up with Vegas, and I`ve been working exclusively with it sinse version 3.
Windows 7 Professional
Intel dual core 2 - 3Gherz processor
Intel motherboard
6GB RAM

Last edited by Ron German; June 12th, 2011 at 05:54 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 10:18 AM   #2
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Anyone can help?
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Old June 13th, 2011, 11:10 AM   #3
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Ron I have the same problem and also get blank sections of video when using Cineform Neo, this is a random error usually fixed when I restart Vegas. I break my renders up into sections of 3 minutes with Veggie Toolkit 3.0 and then combined them all together in another project by rendering without re-compression - this workflow works nicely if I decide to change only one section of my video then I don't have to re-render the entire project. I have found that very high res jpg's tend to crash Vegas and I decrease their resolution before importing into Vegas.

I completely sympathise with what you are experiencing, frankly I'm also fed-up with Vegas crashing all the time! I have slowly been learning CS5 Premier, very professional software & supported by all major plugins, however in order for CS5 to run as smoothly as Vegas I first need to upgrade my Quad-Core to an i7 so I'm sticking to Vegas for 'now' - another reason I haven't fully moved away from Vegas is because of Edward's Excalibur.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #4
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

You guys are both using somewhat dated processors, and Cineform files are well known to create issues with Vegas, though I haven't had them.

CS5 may be better than Vegas for crashing, but last time I check Premier had as much if not more problems with with crashing than Vegas. I considered briefly moving to Premier over a year ago, and the forum seemed filled with people screaming bloody murder about random crashes.

I edit 4 lines of AVCHD, albeit slowly, with my i7, and I have no issues with crashing whatsoever. Nick, hi-res jpeg are an unecessary strain and add no improvement to your images, you should down size them to no more than 2k pixel across, if you even need them that large. You can downsize 100 jpegs in minutes with no visible loss of quality using irfanview, and your playback will be much smoother, and your panning will work out better as well.

Your guys' issues are certainly unfortunate, for sure, and I'm not downplaying them. But to blame Vegas for Cineform issues? Not fair. Hi res images? The fix is too easy for that, just downsize them.

Oh, and yes, upgrade your hardware, and you may be pleased at Vegas' performance. If your using years old hardware, it cannot be helping. It would be the first thing I would do.
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Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 13th, 2011 at 12:56 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 12:32 PM   #5
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Thank you Nicholas and Jeff
Up to version 7, Vegas was a non issue software for me. No crashes, everything worked perfectly.
I don`t have super high res photos in my timeline.
As long as I know, my system is enough according Sony Vegas and Cineform minimum system requirements. Cineform codec has been a big nightmare to my project.
Regarding Vegas, I can`t even render a pre rendered 13`clip that has no more Cineform files.
If the render finishes "normaly", there are always 1 or 2 or 3 black frames randomly inserted in the rendered file.
The problem is I can`t have my one file master in any codec - and I need a QT codec file to transfer it to HDCAM, cause all finishing houses here play the file from FCP.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #6
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Ron, that does sound crappy. As Nicholas says, I too sympatize. I would keep in mind that Windows 7 may technically work with your hardware, but technically is the operative word. Your Intel motherboard may also not like Windows 7, or vice versa. How old is your motheboard, btw?

I despise telling people they might need to upgrade hardware, as it is not my money I'm talking about, and I like to be cognizant of that fact.

On the other hand, in your case, Ron, I think you are at a place where you might consider it.

There are people running newer PCs that have also experienced issues, and I am aware of that, as we all are.

On the other hand, with the seriousness of your issues, the age of your hardware, the newness of your software, it all sounds less than an ideal combinatiion to me.

Otherwise, at a minimum, I stongly encourage you to wipe your hard drive clean, and start over again,short of a hardware upgrade. If you've already done the reinstall, then you might need to look at a hardware upgrade. Just my 2 cents.

Nicholas, I suspect you are pretty savvy technically, but I suspect the above may apply to you as well.

We are all aware of some that are using the q6660, etc, and getting along just fine, but as a serious video editor I cannot fathom running hd video or anything demanding on that processor. Just because hardware works for well with one version of Windows or Vegas, doesn't mean it will operate properly on another, just some food for thought.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 03:59 AM   #7
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Ron also make sure you have the latest Cineform codec, they update all the time so double check, this solved a lot of my problems. I do experience a lot of instability in Vegas however I think yours is rather extreme, as Jeff suggests you might want to consider a clean install of Windows. Part of Vegas instability is due to it's flexibility, a professional work-flow sticks to one codec, Vegas allows you to mix multiple codecs and this is a problem for stability. I also remove unnecessary clutter from my Project Media when editing by pressing the little "Lighting Bolt" icon in your Project Media tab, this removes all unused footage. Another thing I do is actually split my project into edit sections for example when I edit a wedding I will have a project for the Pre-Ceremony, Ceremony, Post Ceremony and Reception and then combined them all after rendering.

Jeff I've been meaning to upgrade to an i7 for sometime now however haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm also waiting for a Gigabyte motherboard that sports 8 SATA RAID ports the current contenders are ridiculously overpriced. When I upgrade I will however still use my current Q6600 as an extra render box so hopefully my crashes aren't a result of using 3 years old tech.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #8
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Harper View Post
CS5 may be better than Vegas for crashing, but last time I check Premier had as much if not more problems with with crashing than Vegas. I considered briefly moving to Premier over a year ago, and the forum seemed filled with people screaming bloody murder about random crashes.
.
For what its worth....
Is this the norm for Premiere Pro?

Also, the experience of learning another NLE definitely improves your game when you come back to Vegas.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 09:19 AM   #9
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Well Gerald, if that thread is any indication, PP might have stepped up their game.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 10:38 AM   #10
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

Thank you for your advice, Jeff.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 10:55 AM   #11
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

You are welcome Ron.

Nicholas, with your upgraded hardware, and a second machine no doubt you will be quite happy!
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Old June 14th, 2011, 05:24 PM   #12
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

At the office I have a i7 w7 64bit machine with decklink HD extreme, 5tb eSATA RocketRaid, 64gb (if i remember ) RAM and some kind of high-end nVidia dual DVI card.
House format is 720p HD and we mix MXF i-frame only, qt, MPEG2-HD and sometimes AVCHD material from Sanyo Xacti cameras. Vegas very rarely crashes on this machine. We have Raylight Ultra installed, just-in-case. Boris Continuum was a real vegas-killer, but now with 10d update it's much better.

Still, v10 is not near as stable as v7 or v8 which could go for weeks without any crashes.
Rapidly adding all these sony-specific codecs and formats and matching the Sony camera product releases with new vegas releases does not seem to be adding to stability.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

After Vegas 7, I started with HD and had so many problems that I almost ditched Vegas. But, finally, I established a routine that now let's me edit and render with almost never any quirk of any sort. Here's what I did:

1. Wiped hard disk, installed Windows 7 64-bit.
2. Edit only Cineform clips, with only .JPGs or PNGs for stills, and only .WAV audio.
3. Put all my stills on one hard disk, clips on another (sometimes a couple or even 3), sound files on another (usually), and render to another.
4. Edit only in Vegas 8c.
5. Render only in 9e-64bit (except for rare cases when I need 32-bit plugin, in which case I use 9c-32).
6. Use Vegas 10 only for FX (BCC7, white balance, etc. - which I immediately render to Cineform for use on the 8c timeline).
7. Use only SATA2 or SATA3 for the hard disks (my USB3 ports are for backup disks only).
8. Use MS Security Essentials for my AV software.

I got my editing heaven on a Q6600, 8GB RAM, overclocked. Then on an i7-940, 12 GB. Now on a 970, 12 GB, OCd to about 4.2 gHz. All equally stable if I discipline myself to follow the above procedures.

I'm not sure that the numerous disks help stability, but they reduce head wear during cross-fades, etc.

I realize that you can't go back to 8c with your current project. But at least you might want to render out the .MXFs to Cineform and edit only from SATA-connected hard disks. Also, MS Security Essentials is free - won't hurt to give it a try after you uninstall your current AV . . .
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Old June 14th, 2011, 07:40 PM   #14
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Re: Black frames when render - Vegas Pro 10D

well i don't doubt for a second some people are having problems with vegas 9 / 10, that is, other than the known bugs documented elsewhere, and my sympathies go out to them...

however, i have run 9 32/64, and now 10/64 without a hitch - i7 920/6gb - using hdv, avchd, png, wave, mp3. IF i have to do anything 'serious' with avchd i transcode to mxf.

my edit pc has all the usual suspects on it (ps, sf, dreamweaver, and an assortment of video / audio related programs), has mse av, and is connected to the net (though it isn't used for everyday use - the office and laptop are my office machines).

i DON'T overclock, add ANY codecs without first checking on the forums and of course, doing both a sys restore and sys backup. the only glitch i've had in the past year or so is with ofx plugins losing the plot - but hey, they aren't sony's. i gave up using mbl when i installed 10/64bit, and haven't looked back.

ymmv, but i still think vegas is as stable as any of the other nle's out there, and a damn sight mor fun to use too....
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