Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow at DVinfo.net

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Old September 2nd, 2011, 06:31 AM   #1
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Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

Okay, so I've searched many Vegas to DVD Architect threads here, but I want to be sure this is correct.

My goal is to create a SD DVD NTSC widescreen 16:9 from a 1080p HD 24p (23.976) file that will play correctly as 24p (aka 23.976p, no interlace jaggies, no audio sync issues) on interlaced TV sets as well as progressive TV sets as well as computer monitors.

My workflow was:
1) Shoot with Canon 60D/7D at 1080p 24p (23.976)

2) Edit in Sony Vegas Pro 10.0e with project properties: 23.976, progressive, 1920x1080

3) Render from Vegas as MPEG-2 using the template DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream (*): 23.976 fps + 2-3 pulldown, 720x480 Progressive, YUV, 6 Mbps, Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.212, render setting at "best"
*I did this with the 3-2 pulldown option for 23.976. (is this correct? I want my DVD to play 24p natively whenever possible and only apply pulldown on old interlaced TV sets that can't play 24p)

4) Render from Vegas for the .wav 48khz 16 bit PCM stereo (for some reason AC-3 didn't work)

5) Go into DVDA Pro 5.0b and set project properties to: Disc format: DVD, target media size (GB): 4.70, Video format: MPEG-2, Bit rate (Mbps): 9.800, Aspect Ratio: 16:9, Resolution (720x480) NTSC, Frame rate: 29.97 (there's no option to change to 23.976), Progressive: no (this option is grayed out so I can't make it say "yes"), Audio format: PCM stereo, Bit depth: 16, sample rate (hz): 48,000
*EDIT: Based on the suggestions from forum users below, I changed the Bit rate (Mbps) to 8.000 now.

I also went to Options > Preferences in DVDA and checked the box "Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV."

6) During the "Make DVD" stage in DVDA, I clicked the "Optimize" button and changed the video frame rate of the video to "23.976 progressive" under the "Video 1" tab. I also upped the default bit rate to max (9.800). I also changed Progressive from "Auto" to "Yes."

The problem is now when I go to "Preview" in DVDA and play my video, it is super laggy and seems to play in slow motion...it used to have all sorts of interlaced jaggies too (but that seemed to finally disappear when I selected "Yes" to progressive during the Optimize phase...though still can't change progressive to "Yes" in the overall DVDA project properties because it's greyed out).

When I press fast forward too, I suddenly see the interlace jaggies again though, but if I let the video play normally, it looks progressive (no jaggies...they only show up when I press fast forward). Except it's super laggy/slow mo of course.

Is this normal? Is my workflow correct? Will the preview's lag disappear in my actual burned DVD?

Thanks!

Last edited by Zhong Cheung; September 2nd, 2011 at 12:38 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 07:27 AM   #2
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

I've always found DVDA to be somewhat sluggish and don't rely on it for accurate playback.
For example, it won't do 5.1 playback :(
Your steps sound correct but the only way to make sure is to burn a DVD and watch it on your TV.

While not dedicated to your specific camera, Sony has two free PDF whitepapers on their site dedicated to 24p that may be of some help.
One is 24p HDCAM/DVCAM and the other is 24p and Panasonic AG-DVX100 and AJ-SDX900.

Sony Creative Software - Download: White Papers
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 10:59 AM   #3
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhong Cheung View Post
...6) During the "Make DVD" stage in DVDA, I clicked the "Optimize" button and changed the video frame rate of the video to "23.976 progressive" under the "Video 1" tab. I also upped the default bit rate to max (9.800). I also changed Progressive from "Auto" to "Yes."...
Though I generally agree with Mike on previews, this step looks suspect.

Couldn't say yes or no on 23.976 progressive / yes. But I'm suspicious of it because the rest of your workflow includes pulldown. Once you've added pulldown, you do have a 29.97 clip. With these settings, is DVDA trying to make it a 24p clip? This would be bad, it would recompress from your already compressed MPEG2, with significant quality loss.

OTOH, if it is only flagging the clip as 24p and not otherwise touching it, so as to allow a DVD player to remove pulldown, that might be good.

You don't want to use the max bitrate of 9800Kbps in a video clip. Although it conforms to the DVD standard, the experience you'll see in forums and bitrate charts indicates that 8000Kbps is an effective maximum. Any higher and it becomes likely that some DVD players will drop frames & etc. However, this is really something under your control in your MPEG2 encode in Vegas, so long as DVDA isn't recompressing.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 12:20 PM   #4
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

The way I was understanding it was that rendering from Vegas was 23.967 w 3-2 pulldown was giving it instructional FLAGS (as opposed to actually conforming the file to 29.97p) so that TV sets which can't play 24 (23.976)p normally can read and apply the pulldown instructions to create a 29.97p file and play it as 29.97p? Is that wrong? I guess the question is...does rendering it from Vegas as 23.976 + 3-2 pulldown just add pulldown FLAGS, or does it actually apply the pulldown and turn it into 29.97p?

But even if rendering as 23.976 + 3-2 pulldown from Vegas does turn it into a 29.97p...since I checked the "allow pulldown removal for 24p DV" box under Options > Preferences in DVD Architect, wouldn't that turn the video back into 23.976p for monitors/TVs/DVD players that can play 24 (23.976)p normally?

Hmm...not sure if my workflow is forcing Vegas to render out a 29.97p clip (in the form of 23.976 w/ 3-2 pulldown...with not just pulldown flags, but actual pulldown) and making DVDA recompress it back into 24p (23.976)...how can I know if DVDA is recompressing it?

Mike, also the 9.8 bit rate was something I changed in DVDA, not Vegas. I can change it to 8.0 in DVDA though if you say that's better, but I never changed any default settings related to bitrate while rendering out from Vegas.

In any case, so I did just go ahead and burn the DVD out and the video no longer lags. However, it's out of sync! The video seems to start 1 second or so before the corresponding audio begins. How can I fix this? I followed all of Sony's troubleshooting steps to solve burning sync issues.

I'm constantly battling either interlace jaggies showing up or audio/video sync issues! Thanks!

Last edited by Zhong Cheung; September 2nd, 2011 at 12:54 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 12:52 PM   #5
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

That's correct; the "2-3 pulldown" in the template does not add interlaced frames, only instructions.

The "29.97" in the DVDA Project properties refers to the base for the DVD -- it's NTSC and not PAL. That doesn't mean the video will be 29.97.

Video files on a DVD can be different frame rates. Most movie DVDs have the movie as 24p and the extras as 29.97. Separate files; different frame rates.

Setting the Video 1 option to 23.976 means that anything which needs to be rendered BY DVDA (menu screens, non-DVD-compliant video files) will be rendered as 23.976. If it were set 29.97, the menus would be 29.97, and if your 24p video weren't DVD-compliant MPEG-2, it would re-render it into a compliant file as 29.97.

And from the sounds of it, that may be what happened here. The bitrate you set may be too high and DVDA may be intending to re-render the video and was displaying it as interlaced. When you changed it to render as 23.976, it no longer did.

I'd leave the bitrate where the template puts it. It is standard, good-quality video. DVDA is probably going to re-render it down to that anyway, so it really gains you nothing.

But, as you are rescaling video, go ahead and change the render quality to "Best." Not the bitrate, but the render quality on the Project tab in "Render As."
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 01:44 PM   #6
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

David, just the guy I was hoping would respond! I've been reading your old threads on this topic on this forum and elsewhere, but still have plenty of questions.

Would it be possible to contact you directly if I continue to run into issues?

I've rendered out from Vegas using the DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream (*) template: 23.976 fps + 2-3 pulldown, 720x480 Progressive, YUV, 6 Mbps, Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.212, render setting at "best"

But when I throw it into DVDA now, it says my file will be recompressed. What gives? How is my file not DVD-compliant at 23.976 with 2-3 pulldown?

However, my warning messages in DVDA show a red warning (!) sign which indicates that the video is already DVD-complaint, but that I have somehow specified DVDA to force the video to be recompressed. Problem is, I don't want it recompressed, especially if it is already DVD-Complaint. How can I fix this?

This is different than the yellow warning (1) sign which would indicate that the video is not DVD-complaint and is REQUIRED to be recompressed (as opposed to me specifying recompression unnecessarily).

Last edited by Zhong Cheung; September 2nd, 2011 at 02:33 PM.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 04:58 PM   #7
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Re: Canon 7D 24p 1080p --> 23.976p Vegas Pro 10.0e --> DVDA Pro 5.0b workflow

In Optimize Disc, click on the video file. Go to Video 1. Set Recompress to No.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, and I apologize in advance for any slow responses. :)
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