Mixed footage question at DVinfo.net

Jeff Harper · June 27th, 2013, 09:27 PM

I have brought up this issue before over a year ago, but I asked the wrong questions, so I did not get the help I needed. I'm hoping by re-explaining more clearly my issue someone can shed some light on my dilemma.

I have two types of cameras. I would like to shoot 60i, but one shoots upper field first, and the other shoots lower field first. I shot a wedding once where the mixed footage did not work out too well, as motion was jagged, it looked pretty bad. Since then, I have shot in 24p, since both types of cameras that I have do have 24p.

I am tired of 24p, and wish to be done with it. My Canon has issues with autofocus in 24p, I find it difficult to manually focus, the images are too soft for me to be sure, and it is a constant stressor as I shoot using four cameras alone. I need to focus on other things, not worry constantly about whether I'm in focus or not.

All this being said, if I shoot in 60i with these mixed cameras, must I convert the footage prior to editing?

To further confuse things, my GH2s also offer 30p, which I had hoped would work fine on a 60p timeline, but alas, the 30p footage shows up in Vegas as 60i, upper field first.

What are my choices, short of buying two new cameras? Am I stuck shooting in 24p until I replace my cameras?

Michael Wisniewski · June 27th, 2013, 10:00 PM

Jeff,

I believe the GH2 shoots 30p but wraps it in a 60i file for editing compatibility. If that is true, the solution is to edit everything on a 60i timeline. Upper/lower field first do not matter to the 30p file. So just set the timeline properties to match the true 60i footage you have.

** If you are only editing the GH2 file 30p, just set the timeline/project property to progressive 30p.

Jeff Harper · June 27th, 2013, 10:04 PM

Michael, thanks for your response. You do not think I need to get Vegas to see the footage as 60i? It was mentioned in the GH2 forum that some editing programs can be made to see this wrapped footage by changing things manually. Do you believe that I do not need to concern myself with this? It seems, from your advice, that is is fine as-is, but I'm just a tad concerned with getting it right and nailing down my workflow before I change my camera settings and start shooting weddings.

Garrett Low · June 27th, 2013, 10:54 PM

Jeff, in Vegas you can have mixed ordered interlace footage but I've always found that if I deinterlace all footage first it just makes thing go smoother.

Jeff Harper · June 27th, 2013, 10:59 PM

I hear you, Garrett, I think. I want to output 60i in the end for Bluray, so are you saying you would deinterlace the footage and then re-interlace at render? Or are you talking about a workflow for the internet?

Gerald Webb · June 28th, 2013, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I am tired of 24p, and wish to be done with it. My Canon has issues with autofocus in 24p, I find it difficult to manually focus, the images are too soft for me to be sure, and it is a constant stressor as I shoot using four cameras alone. I need to focus on other things, not worry constantly about whether I'm in focus or not.

FWIW My Z5 shows a noticeable difference using autofocus at slower shutter speeds, when light is available I leave it at 100 shutter now, autofocus is very crisp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

All this being said, if I shoot in 60i with these mixed cameras, must I convert the footage prior to editing?

If you want to maintain your UFF through your editing and onto the Bluray the LFF cam will have to be deinterlaced, turned Progressive, then interlaced UFF for the Bluray render. You will lose resolution though. Still makes more sense than converting everything though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

To further confuse things, my GH2s also offer 30p, which I had hoped would work fine on a 60p timeline, but alas, the 30p footage shows up in Vegas as 60i, upper field first.

Vegas interprets our GH2 25p/30p footage as interlaced because thats what it is, 2 fields of the same point in time. Select Properties, Media, Field Order to Progressive. Then check Disable resample. Does it look ok in your 60p comp now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Wisniewski

I believe the GH2 shoots 30p but wraps it in a 60i file for editing compatibility. If that is true, the solution is to edit everything on a 60i timeline. Upper/lower field first do not matter to the 30p file

The GH2 sensor records 25p/30p differently than 24p. The 25p/30p is interlaced footage of the same point in time. It is explained very well by the very clever LPowell here-
GH2 can I get 24p quality with 25p recording? - Personal View Talks

I cant see how you gain anything by putting it into a 60i timeline, you just lose resolution.

Chris Harding · June 28th, 2013, 05:51 AM

Hi Jeff

I shoot 50i (cos we are PAL) on my Sony EA-50's and then 25P on my GoPros and the footage mixes perfectly in Vegas BUT you need to set Project Properties "Render" to "Best" and set "De-Interlace" to "BLEND" and any progressive sources will be skipped but interlaced will be de-interlaced.

Sure I have tried shooting at 25P and 50P on the big cams and you really need a huge magnifier to spot any difference regardless of what format it's going out to. I have watched my MPEG2 clips on a new 60" TV and they look stunning ...and that's SD!!! The real secret I found from a Vegas guru lady called Eugenia (same name as my wife so I remember her) is to drop the Sony Sharpen preset onto each track but keep it at zero ... I have no idea what it does but whatever bit does it does well (lifting it to 0.1 is actually even better) ... I have now been shooting in 50i for years and just add the plugin and never have a complaint from brides. Certainly worth a try but rule number 1 is set de-interlacing to blend just in case your footage is progressive inside an interlaced wrapper. It won't harm anything if it's all progressive but will strip any jaggies if it is. Then render to whatever you want to!

Chris

Garrett Low · June 28th, 2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I hear you, Garrett, I think. I want to output 60i in the end for Bluray, so are you saying you would deinterlace the footage and then re-interlace at render? Or are you talking about a workflow for the internet?

I would deinterlace first. Go through the edit. then when you create the 60i footage (for BR use upper first) it will be progressive segmented frames (PsF). When played back through a BR player it will then recreate the progressive frame. I usually shoot all progressive now. So, since BR does not support 30p my BR discs are 60i but with PsF. So rendering to 60i when starting with 30p footage, when played back is the same as 30p.

Does that make sense?

Jeff Harper · June 28th, 2013, 12:01 PM

It makes sense, but is not what I wanted to hear. I do not want to transcode footage, been there done that. The file sizes, the time, it's too much. I'll think about this further when I have more time, I am jammed up with work today. Thanks much everyone. My next shoot is not till next week, so I'll work on this next week.

Ian Stark · June 28th, 2013, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

The real secret I found from a Vegas guru lady called Eugenia (same name as my wife so I remember her) is to drop the Sony Sharpen preset onto each track but keep it at zero ... I have no idea what it does but whatever bit does it does well (lifting it to 0.1 is actually even better) ... I have now been shooting in 50i for years and just add the plugin and never have a complaint from brides.

Would adding it to the master video track work as well? Or at media level? I do remember reading that tip somewhere a long time back (including, I think, an explanation) but it's one of those things that I'd completely forgotten! Thanks for the reminder.

Chris Harding · June 28th, 2013, 07:26 PM

Hi Ian

Yep, you add it to the Master Track always never the Event so anything on that track automatically get the use of the plugin. If I'm editing a wedding with 3 cams I'll always start off with 3 video tracks and before any footage is dragged onto the tracks each has the plugin dropped in ... Otherwise I tend to forget !!

Chris

Marcus Martell · June 29th, 2013, 04:19 AM

Hola guys,
very very interesting discussions here. What about i have a 50 minutes of doc shot with a FX1 in 50 i but i have to add about 80 secs of shots in 24p. What i did was to leave the project properties HDV 1440 x 1080 ,25fps with field order: upper / and deinterlace method: interpolate fields full resolution render quality:good.
On the few clips shot in 24p i desable resample but the final result is always alittle bit unnutural on the 24 p parts. Am i doing the correct thing?
Many thx and happy weekend

MM

June 27th, 2013, 09:27 PM	#1
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Mixed footage question I have brought up this issue before over a year ago, but I asked the wrong questions, so I did not get the help I needed. I'm hoping by re-explaining more clearly my issue someone can shed some light on my dilemma. I have two types of cameras. I would like to shoot 60i, but one shoots upper field first, and the other shoots lower field first. I shot a wedding once where the mixed footage did not work out too well, as motion was jagged, it looked pretty bad. Since then, I have shot in 24p, since both types of cameras that I have do have 24p. I am tired of 24p, and wish to be done with it. My Canon has issues with autofocus in 24p, I find it difficult to manually focus, the images are too soft for me to be sure, and it is a constant stressor as I shoot using four cameras alone. I need to focus on other things, not worry constantly about whether I'm in focus or not. All this being said, if I shoot in 60i with these mixed cameras, must I convert the footage prior to editing? To further confuse things, my GH2s also offer 30p, which I had hoped would work fine on a 60p timeline, but alas, the 30p footage shows up in Vegas as 60i, upper field first. What are my choices, short of buying two new cameras? Am I stuck shooting in 24p until I replace my cameras?

June 27th, 2013, 10:00 PM	#2
Michael Wisniewski Wrangler Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Makati, Metro Manila Posts: 2,706 Images: 32	Re: Mixed footage question Jeff, I believe the GH2 shoots 30p but wraps it in a 60i file for editing compatibility. If that is true, the solution is to edit everything on a 60i timeline. Upper/lower field first do not matter to the 30p file. So just set the timeline properties to match the true 60i footage you have. ** If you are only editing the GH2 file 30p, just set the timeline/project property to progressive 30p. __________________ "Ultimately, the most extraordinary thing, in a frame, is a human being." - Martin Scorsese

June 27th, 2013, 10:04 PM	#3
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Mixed footage question Michael, thanks for your response. You do not think I need to get Vegas to see the footage as 60i? It was mentioned in the GH2 forum that some editing programs can be made to see this wrapped footage by changing things manually. Do you believe that I do not need to concern myself with this? It seems, from your advice, that is is fine as-is, but I'm just a tad concerned with getting it right and nailing down my workflow before I change my camera settings and start shooting weddings. Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 27th, 2013 at 10:53 PM.

June 27th, 2013, 10:54 PM	#4
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	Re: Mixed footage question Jeff, in Vegas you can have mixed ordered interlace footage but I've always found that if I deinterlace all footage first it just makes thing go smoother. __________________ Garrett Low www.GLowMediaProductions.com

June 27th, 2013, 10:59 PM	#5
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Mixed footage question I hear you, Garrett, I think. I want to output 60i in the end for Bluray, so are you saying you would deinterlace the footage and then re-interlace at render? Or are you talking about a workflow for the internet?

June 28th, 2013, 05:51 AM	#7
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Mixed footage question Hi Jeff I shoot 50i (cos we are PAL) on my Sony EA-50's and then 25P on my GoPros and the footage mixes perfectly in Vegas BUT you need to set Project Properties "Render" to "Best" and set "De-Interlace" to "BLEND" and any progressive sources will be skipped but interlaced will be de-interlaced. Sure I have tried shooting at 25P and 50P on the big cams and you really need a huge magnifier to spot any difference regardless of what format it's going out to. I have watched my MPEG2 clips on a new 60" TV and they look stunning ...and that's SD!!! The real secret I found from a Vegas guru lady called Eugenia (same name as my wife so I remember her) is to drop the Sony Sharpen preset onto each track but keep it at zero ... I have no idea what it does but whatever bit does it does well (lifting it to 0.1 is actually even better) ... I have now been shooting in 50i for years and just add the plugin and never have a complaint from brides. Certainly worth a try but rule number 1 is set de-interlacing to blend just in case your footage is progressive inside an interlaced wrapper. It won't harm anything if it's all progressive but will strip any jaggies if it is. Then render to whatever you want to! Chris

June 28th, 2013, 12:01 PM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Mixed footage question It makes sense, but is not what I wanted to hear. I do not want to transcode footage, been there done that. The file sizes, the time, it's too much. I'll think about this further when I have more time, I am jammed up with work today. Thanks much everyone. My next shoot is not till next week, so I'll work on this next week.

June 28th, 2013, 07:26 PM	#11
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Mixed footage question Hi Ian Yep, you add it to the Master Track always never the Event so anything on that track automatically get the use of the plugin. If I'm editing a wedding with 3 cams I'll always start off with 3 video tracks and before any footage is dragged onto the tracks each has the plugin dropped in ... Otherwise I tend to forget !! Chris

June 29th, 2013, 04:19 AM	#12
Marcus Martell Trustee Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: spain Posts: 1,202	Re: Mixed footage question Hola guys, very very interesting discussions here. What about i have a 50 minutes of doc shot with a FX1 in 50 i but i have to add about 80 secs of shots in 24p. What i did was to leave the project properties HDV 1440 x 1080 ,25fps with field order: upper / and deinterlace method: interpolate fields full resolution render quality:good. On the few clips shot in 24p i desable resample but the final result is always alittle bit unnutural on the 24 p parts. Am i doing the correct thing? Many thx and happy weekend MM