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Old March 27th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #1
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Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Or both....

I did a concert using 5 cameras and am in the edit phase. I've done lots of cuts and it seems that somewhere in the process things have shifted relative to the sound track. The conductor and I spent hours over a two day period shifting individual clips by a few frames each to bring everything back into sync. I suspect that selecting clips with the mouse for editing/ trimming etc is shifting them a bit.

I need to be able to lock all the tracks in sync with the sound, but I don't see any way to do it. I can Group the tracks, but then have to Ungroup/reGroup to make a cut (for example) and when a track is Ungrouped, it can slide relative to the sound track.

I've tried switches/lock but then can't edit the clips

Isn't there any way to lock sync with the soundtrack without locking anything else???
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Old March 27th, 2014, 09:44 PM   #2
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Jim,
I can't answer for Vegas even though I use it since V.2 but I CAN answer for using a 3rd party multicam plug in. Personally I use Excalibur by Edward Troxel. I've been using it since it came out, AAMOF I was a BETA tester on it years ago and if I did nothing but multicam work with it...it would be worth the price just for that and it's not the expensive.

I've done 5, 7 and even 9 camera cuts with the push of a button and believe me, I don't have the patience or the attention span of an 8 year old on a sugar high, and it works everytime.
There is a free trial. You might want to look at it and try it. I think you'll like it. It's at Edwards website: www.jetdv.com
Not exactly what you wanted I'm sure but it will be what you need for multicam cuts and so much more.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #3
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

In version 8 I used it a bit with no probs, so easy and quick, a odd work flow though. Haven't tried it with 11, as I personally can't use it as its so unstable for me. Cant therefore talk for 12, I'll wait till the possible 13 before upgrading again if they iron out the stability probs.

And yes I said for 'me', before people jump in say how stable their machine is etc etc
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Old March 27th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #4
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Sorry if I sounded frustrated but having just had myself and the conductor tied up for hours pushing clips around a frame or two at a time, I WAS frustrated. And that was for only about 15 minutes of a 90 minute concert.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 05:51 AM   #5
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Andrada View Post
I suspect that selecting clips with the mouse for editing/ trimming etc is shifting them a bit.
It's happened to me before so that is a possibility. One fix is to hold down the Ctrl key while you click on the event. That will prevent it from shifting. Then use the 1 or 3 key on the numeric keypad to slide the event 1 frame in either direction.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #6
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Andrada View Post
Or both....
No not stupid Jim but am wondering how you have got yourself into this fix. At the risk of telling Grandma how to suck eggs here goes.

I don’t know how you multicam switch but we only know one consistently accurate way. I have put together some jpg screen shots of how we setup multicam shows and in doing it this way we have never had the loss of sync issue you are talking about when adjusting cut points. As long as the adjustments are made using the combination of CTRL + ALT keys above the cut point. This will allow you to trim one clip and lengthen the other or vice-a-versa and all should stay in sync. The workflow outlined in the attached jpegs has evolved throughout the process of us having produced a few dozen shows for TV and many sell through entertainment and sports shows for DVD release. So far it has served us well.

I forced a number of the cut / clips out of sync and by using the ‘Synchronize – By Moving’ command all the un-synced video cuts on the switched video tack re-synced back to their respective audio tracks with one click. One of the jpegs shows how to re-sync video and another one how to re-sync audio back to video if you nudged an audio out track out of sync. BTW we only ever use the numeric keypad for camera selection.

You will notice from the way we set up a multicam that all audio tracks are MUTED as we normally only use one audio track, usually the desk feed as a guide, until the switch is finished. Then we un-mute the various other audio tracks if we need them and adjust levels accordingly. If it’s an entertainment show we usually have a bit of the theatre ambiance and the applause of course thrown into the final mix down. Usually the ambience audio has to be pushed out of sync slightly as is can be a frame or so out relative to the desk feed if the venue is a very large one. If less than a frame out ‘Unquantize’ to frames so you can move the ambient audio tracks sub-frame if you require.

I think the jpegs will explain what I am getting at in a simpler fashion. If you are at all like me a visual image can sometimes convey a hundred words of explanation. If I have completely misunderstood your dilemma then I apologise and hope someone can demonstrate a better work flow. I for one would love to know if there is a better way.

SORRY! Tried to upload the jpgs in Zip file smaller than the max allowed but the upload failed. That's been happening a bit more often these days??

Try downloading them from: http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/09jevk

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney
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Old March 28th, 2014, 03:34 PM   #7
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Thanks guys - I figured there must be a way. Although it would be nice IMHO if there were a command that just locked the events in place to the timeline

Just for info - there's a sound track from the audio recorder, but no sound track on the main cameras as they're 80 feet from the stage and the audio would be out of sync using the camera mics. We've been syncing the tracks using an old fashioned clapper board before doing cuts and transitions, but using the mouse to select the tracks for cutting - probably a bad idea..

I've bitten the bullet and picked up a few 100' cables and next concert I'll run them up to the balcony so I can have an audio sync track in each camera. Also - this is the first time I've used more than 2 cams so it hasn't been an issue up to now. We'll be performing a piano concerto so will probably have a total of 8 cameras including those on the pianist, so really need to improve the workflow.
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Old April 1st, 2014, 03:17 PM   #8
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

I've used it many many times. I usually use photo flashes to sync. The only thing I wish, is that you culd see a quad-view before you build the multi-cam track so you can sync them all simultaneously.

One thing that causes my multi-cam to seem out of sync is that I am using two different kinds of camera and I think the frames don't always fall the same if that makes sense, even while shooting 60i.

Were all five of your cameras the same?

Anyway, Vegas multi-cam has saved me a lot of time over the years. I cut one concert manually by stacking the timelines and cutting away what I didn't want. It was a mess.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 05:23 AM   #9
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Jeremiah, seeing a quad-view before switching to multicam would be very very useful, I agree. The work around that I use is with pan and crop. I resize each track to a smaller size and position them in different locations in the preview. When you turn multicam on, all of the resizing will be discarded automatically.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 06:41 AM   #10
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

This is why I recommend either Excalibur which I love and does way more than just multicam or VAAST Ultimate S. Not only will they set the screen for the proper number of cameras but they number each one in the preview and then it's one button cutting. Each camera has a numbered button and it can be either a straight cut or a dissolve. You have total control over the way you want the plugin to work.
If you do a lot of multicam (and just about I've done is at least 2 and up to 5 or 6) it's really worth looking into. It will save your sanity and again they both do many many other valuable things. One of those being, in Excalibur (I'm not sure about Ultimate S) is the ability to automatically save the project to multiple harddrives That alone to me is worth the price. AAMOF just about any of the features alone would be worth the price.
Am I schilling for Excalibur? Maybe. I don't work for Edward but he's a scripting wizard and I was a beta tester for Excalibur way back when. All I know is it WORKS and saves me time, which is money and heartaches doing any kind of multicam work.
Just Saying!
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Last edited by Don Bloom; April 2nd, 2014 at 09:34 AM. Reason: typo
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 07:49 AM   #11
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Here's a video showing multi-cam using Exaclibur 5:

http://www.jetdv.com/excalibur55/vid...r5MultiCam.wmv

The process is even better with Excalibur 6 which runs as a Custom Command:

Excalibur

Excalibur
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 11:19 AM   #12
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Re: Am I Stupid, or does Vegas suck for multicam

Jim, I've used the multicam editing without any sync issues in Vegas Pro 11. I followed the steps from this tutorial: Cutting with the Vegas Pro multi-camera editing tools

Hope you get your problem resolved.
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