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Old February 9th, 2006, 12:21 PM   #31
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cape Coral, Florida
Posts: 76
DSE I know it is easy to forget how long the show is because it was posted back on page 1. It only has a total run time of 28:30. Since the show is currently in Cineform HD then I should or shouldn't render it to YUV 4:2:2. Alright after I coach wrestling practice I will head over and pick up an external HD. I will get it rendered to whatever format you guys suggest. You all really don't know how much I appreciate the help.

Capt Ben
"Chew On This Saltwater Fishing Show"
Fishing Television with Intensity
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Old February 9th, 2006, 01:50 PM   #32
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Here is the link, took awhile to find it since it's not on the Kona support page anymore

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Old February 9th, 2006, 04:29 PM   #33
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I have an HDCam deck and a Z1. I can do the dub for you for $600. You can rent your own deck and do it for $800 + tax. I'll supply the 40 minute HDCam tape and fedex it back for that price. It's not hard.

Keep in mind that the show shot in HDV will be no better because of putting it onto an HDCam tape. Also, if you sent the HDV show to them, they know it was shot in HDV. It may not look bad but be prepared for them to say NO HDV. They may also figure that a week after giving them the HDV tape you show up with the same show on HDCam that you just dubbed it. They may have an issue with the original quality because they know it was not originated in HDV. Just a comment.

I know this because I did the same exact thing (on purpose) with HDNet. I shot a sample in HDV, dubbed it to HDCam and they all thought it was great. Then they asked what I shot it with and after I changed the subject 3 times, I told them my Z1. Thats when everyone changed their opinion. I guarantee you that the show looked great and those folks would NEVER know the difference unless they looked at Identicle footage shot with the F900.

Anyway, I'll help you.

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Old February 9th, 2006, 04:44 PM   #34
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Dub or Render?

Since you alreaady have the show as Cineform files in Vegas, it's silly to go back to HDV. I would just find a post house that can output the renderd file directly to HDCAM with proper timecode start time etc. You'll never get a frame accurate dub from HDV to HDCAM because there are no broadcast standard HDV decks - which would need to have +/- 1 frame accuracy.

Not to mention Jeff's price is double what you should be paying.


PS - don't render until you confirm which codec to use by the person doing the layoff.
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Old February 9th, 2006, 05:20 PM   #35
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Location: Cape Coral, Florida
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You are the man. I see you don't post on here much so I really thank you for speaking up. As of right now Interscreen out of Largo, FL is my favorite by far. The only tough thing is they only have DVC PRO HD at this moment. However, Keith has been very helpful and if you guys tell me I should be able to render to format DVC PRO HD just fine then Interscreen is the way I will go. My second choice is Vinny from Cineworks out of Miami. He was very helpful and knew just what DSE said about how to layback from HDD to HDCAM. Their price was around what DSE said it should be. Some of these houses were telling me some crazy stuff. One told me $350 an hour with minimum 5 hours and the total would be 8 hours. That would have hurt big time. There were others who were less than that but more than what you professionals on here said it would be. I knew to keep my head up and keep searching.


I really appreciate the offer. Owning one of those HDCAM decks is a major investment in my book. It is ashame the Network would be so prejudice about one format over another when they couldn't really tell. I pray this does not happen to me. I will be sure to keep you all updated.

There are certain things I don't understand. The show is 28:30 with 6 minutes of commercial space. I don't have any HD commercials to put in those time slots so I just blacked it out. I hope that was the right thing to do. If not I can redo it. My other thought is: "Chew On This" rendered out during tape print to 12.3 GB's I believe. If I could just print to one of those little 20GB USB 2.0 drives it would be awesome. Kind of like having an HD dvd just in a hard case. To bad USB 2.0 is not an option instead of firewire. It would be great.

Capt Ben
"Chew On This Saltwater Fishing Show"
Fishing Television with Intensity
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Old February 10th, 2006, 09:56 PM   #36
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Ben, I can't offer any help beyond what's been posted, but I'd just like to say that I and I'm sure many others are following your progress closely, as we may find ourselves in a similar situation one day, and hearing how you are making your way past each hurdle is very valuable info.

One thing you should have on your side if the station starts kicking up about HDV is that you already have an established show and hopefully this will give you a fair amount of bargaining power.

Good luck.

Perth, Western Oz
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Old February 11th, 2006, 05:58 AM   #37
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Atlanta GA
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Ben, Here's my (further) advice.

1) Do not let the network know that you're not using a big expensive camera jeff's mistake is one that I've heard many times, though, the hd networks are getting so starved for content now that many are accepting shows that were shot with hdv (or with portions of hdv) that they wouldn't accept before. but it's always better to let them think you spent more on it then you did, no one ever complained about too much production value (except maybe the blair witch kids)

2) If it isn't too late don't go to dvcprohd unless that is the specific format that your station wants. Most all stations my company sends to want HDCAM masters. (not to be confused with master quality HDV tapes)

3) You might not need a full 6 minutes of black, most of the projects we do the editors just fade out for 10-20 seconds or so and the network will fill in the rest.

4) I don't know anything about cineform or the like but your quick and fastest option is to go the deck route, the deck you are looking for is an HDCAM record deck, the cheapest one now I believe is the HDW-500 the HDW-F500 records and plays back 24p but you don't need that.

5) The company I work for would probably charge you 300 bucks as well to do the transfer, but we're bigger and that's not a main source of income for us, heck I can probably slide it in on the side if you're still having trouble.

Good luck, if the network calls and asks about your HDV tape just tell them that your "assitant" sent them "the wrong tape" a "downconverted one" instead of the "master" this is commonly known as "lying" but well what they don't know won't hurt them.
I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...
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Old February 12th, 2006, 03:45 PM   #38
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Bad advice

Well, after being an observer of this forum for awhile, I had to make my first comment after becoming completely nauseated at where this thread has gone.

First, this is easy. Make no mistake HDV is NOT HDCam or HD-D5 and is not considered broadcast grade by most broadcasters. Suggesting that lying about it is absolutely the wrong advice, for your project, the broadcaster, and the general public.

I have been producing HDTV programming since late 1995, way before HDCam and way before it was either cheap or easy to enter this market. Still today, to do this justice, its neither cheap or easy. Nor should it be. Why you would expect a $8K camera to produce images that a $80K camera with a $25K lens can do is absurd. Is a Chevrolet the same car as a Rolls Royce? Is oil painting the same as coloring with crayons? Of course not. Neither is HDV supposed to be designed for broadcast production. You are not fooling any broadcaster by pretending you shot with HDCam, only making it harder for real productions to be accepted by HD broadcasters.

Why do you think that Discovery HD virtually refuses to consider applications from outside producers? Because of this very issue. Quality or the lack thereof. If you want to produce real HD programming, then rent real HD gear, learn how to use the equipment, never accept a standard broadcast lens, light it properly, learn how to read a real waveform, and learn to color correct and gamma correct with a color corrector other than what is standard on Final Cut. Then and only then do you have a true HD broadcast show. This is what consumers should be watching, not HDV pretending to be what it can’t.

HDV is great for certain applications. A fabulous replacement for any SD format. Great for corporate and industrial applications. We consider it a great “sacrifice” camera. Mounting it in tight or dangerous places where the risk is too high for HDCam or the space won’t allow for a full size broadcast camera. If treated VERY gingerly, HDV can look fine, which mainly means images with less color and movement. But don’t pretend it’s made for broadcast.

Think of it like SVHS, Hi-8mm, and most of the DV formats. A low cost solution for certain production needs, but not meant to be mainstream broadcast. Consumers deserve to see what HD was meant to look like, too bad most of the broadcasters compress the heck out of it. When you compound that broadcast compression with the lower quality HDV imaging, it’s a recipe for poor images to the viewer. Why do you think they are trying to avoid accepting it.

Like most things in life, there is no free lunch. My motto is do it right, or don’t do it at all. Trying to fool the broadcasters because you cannot afford to use HDCam is simply wrong. This is not a grey area. I council new production people on a weekly basis who come to me for answers. I have been encouraging HD production since the day I discovered the format over 11 years ago. We do need more HD production, but we need it done right. HDV is a tool in the tool box, designed for a specific purpose. Real HD is an art form, try to think of it as such.

In closing, my suggestion is to place your program on HDCam and send it to the broadcaster as required. Tell them it was shot on HDV, if they like the content and the concept perhaps they will ask you to reproduce it with HDCam. If so, ask them for part of the budget upfront. In this way you will form a level of trust and respect with a broadcaster who might become a regular source of income for your show. Rent the gear you need or hire an experienced HDCam shooter. Then you are on the road to a long form relationship with a real broadcaster on an honest level. If anyone has questions or wants help with HD, I will be more than happy to try and answer them.
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Old February 12th, 2006, 05:00 PM   #39
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Stockton, UT
Posts: 5,648
Welcome to the forum. But let's be clear on a couple things.
1. HDV is "true" HD. Period. You can assign your own opinion to it, but in fact by both ATSC and SMPTE standard, it is "true" HD. end of story. The spec does not offer up any definitions based on compression. Nor could it.
2. No one suggested Ben "lie" but rather not say how it was acquired unless asked.
3. HDV may not be considered broadcastable by YOUR area broadcasters, but HDV is being broadcast nationwide every day. By channels as diverse as the Food Channel (lots of HDV cams there) to Fox (lots of HDV cams there; I know, because I trained them in the use of said cams) Discovery Channel (one only has to watch Mythbusters or Monster Garage regularly to see the cams show up) NBC (several HDV cams on the street for segment package production) Belo Group (I trained those folks too) CNN (lots of the Z1 and JVC HD100's in various departments) MTV (same as CNN. I trained several of their staff on use of the Z1) and many, many other shows.
HBO has "House Arrest" which is shot predominantly on Z1, several Sundance Channel shows are shot on Z1 and JVC HD100.
Additionally, Z1 footage is regularly intercut with35mm and F900/950 footage.
All that said, does HDV replace HDCAM? Of course not. But to suggest it's not broadcast quality or can't be broadcast is as asinine as the people that suggested this regarding DV 10 years ago. Fully 20% of what has been broadcast in the past year (new production) has DV in the production somewhere, according to more than one industry reporting team. NHK, progenitor of HD, has been broadcasting from HDV masters for over a year.
You're welcome to your motto of "do it right or don't do it at all." I submit that "doing it right" is entirely dependent on your perspective. One perspective is that "Doing it right" means shooting it right with good lighting, production sound, and planning. To someone else, "Doing it right" means renting HDCAM gear, and that's the end of it. If the latter is your view, a lot of folks wouldn't be producing anything due to cost. Therefore, the definition is pretty abstract and meaningless in that context. My motto therefore would be "do the best you can with what you have and/or can afford."

Either way, I think Ben got his answers, so I think it's time for this thread to end. You're welcome to start a new one should you wish.
Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot
Author, producer, composer
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
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