calibrating color

[Eric Stromblad]

I am capturing DVD video through my consumer grade Toshiba player via high quality component monster cable through the ADS pyro a/v link analogue/digital converter into FW card. Vegas 6.0d

The image always comes out a bit under colored...I have generated some bars and brought re-captured them in order to do a test of what needs to be done...solution:

Two video output filters:

HSL adjust:
H-.99
S-1.39
L-1.00

Brightness Contrast:
B-0
C-.16
CC-.5

These filters work....my output video (ntsc dvd widescreen) looks good on my 32" TV. However, this video filter increases render time and I'm almost positive that it must slightly pixelate the video, (although the quality still looks good to me).

Is there anything I can do to get the correct color settings into vegas while capturing? I want to avoid the render time of that filter.

-Do I need a better DVD player?

-Do I need a better capture card/analogue to video converter?

-Is there a setting in vegas to alter or calibrate the color of incoming video through external devices? I already know about the vectorscope, but I havent found a way of changing video levels-just displaying them.

-What is the internal device option - it shows decklink or 1394/mpeg 2 -ts device....what does this mean? Are either of these devices higher quality than my ads pyro capture card? Can it work with a DVD player?

Notes:

I have already tried editing mpegs or vobs instead....they do bring the color in perfectly, but I am not happy with the accuracy of editing GOP's vs. frames. i have tried different NLE's and none of them are satisfactory, including womble which does not keep good sync after editing and exporting and doesn't even give a good enough interface to do L of J cuts.

I have tried different video converters - DVD to AVI and am not happy with those results either.

I want to do this by capturing video into Vegas. And not importing DVD camcorder discs either...just more terrible mpegs...I want to capture avi video as normal....just with the right colors.

Is there a way to play the DVD in your ROM and capture from that? I've always wondered why they can't make that. It seems that there would be a way to do it and the result could be great quality, since the video wouldn't have to be transported through any cables.

[Bennis Hahn]

On your last note, I would use DVD Shrink (google it) and import the .VOB files to your HD. Then change their extentions to .mpg and bring them into Vegas. You can render them out as an AVI if you don't want to edit in GOPs. I think that is the best quality you are going to get, however.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

You shouldn't even have to change the name of the extension, if they're not protected files, the VOB should open fine in Vegas.

[Dionyssios Chalkias]

The best way to do this, is just import the DVD contents (Import DVD Camcorder Disc in menu). The video will be imported with markers and all. You need version 6.0c or later.

Why would you want to 'capture'? Doing digital to analog to digital results in loss of quality, not only colour information but resolution too...

[Eric Stromblad]

I've tried using the VOB's and it's terrible. They do not edit well on the vegas timeline. They have glitches, sometimes become out of sync, go black for a little while, move SLOW as hell, etc. The video looks good for a few seconds at a time, but it just doesn't edit well.

I haven't tried DVD shrink, but will that result be any different than DVD decrypter?

I have not tried rendering the vob into avi...I will give that a try. I am doubtful it will work though, because if the video plays back with glitches, than why wouldn't those same glitches be rendered into the avi? BTW, what format of avi should I render to? It is widescreen ntsc video...I just want to make sure that if I try this I render to the same avi format that Vegas captures with, as this seems to be uncompressed and very editable.

I am currently capturing, because I thought that was the best, fastest, and most accurate method to get high quality video with perfect sync and editability on the vegas timeline. So far none of my extensive tests with VOB's proved in the least bit realiable.

EDIT: I have also tried the "Import DVD camcorder disc" function. (This is a DVD video (type 9, and sometimes 5), not from a camcorder disc...don't know if that matters). It is the worst yet. It not only imports un-editable .mpg files, they are smaller and crappier versions of the original VOBs. It looks like 100K streaming video from the internet.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Eric, you understand that a VOB is mpeg, right? Therefore, you have a lot of P and B frames. There is no picture in those frames, which is why you see it go black from time to time.
MPEG files/VOB files of low bitrate are not intended to be edited; they should only be edited in an emergency.
Trying to edit MPEG in this particular situation, is like expecting a Volkswagen to do well in Indianapolis.
Additionally, the media Vegas captures, and that you're working with, is not uncompressed. It's DV. DV is compressed approx 5:1, and additionally is 4:1:1 colorspace, so it's heavily compressed.

[Eric Stromblad]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Eric, you understand that a VOB is mpeg, right? Therefore, you have a lot of P and B frames. There is no picture in those frames, which is why you see it go black from time to time.
MPEG files/VOB files of low bitrate are not intended to be edited; they should only be edited in an emergency.
Trying to edit MPEG in this particular situation, is like expecting a Volkswagen to do well in Indianapolis.
Additionally, the media Vegas captures, and that you're working with, is not uncompressed. It's DV. DV is compressed approx 5:1, and additionally is 4:1:1 colorspace, so it's heavily compressed.

Yes I do understand VOB is mpeg, that is why I do not want to edit it, and I don't understand why people keep telling me to drag VOB files into the timeline...it's not the right way to do things.

I assumed capturing is the best way to bring in editable video. Even if it is compressed to DV, isn't this the "least compressed" video I'm going to be able to get?

Back to my original question: I'm capturing through a consumer grade DVD player through ADS pyro through FW. Is there a better way to do things?

Should I get a better DVD player or should I invest in a different capturing device, like the blackmagic decklink SD? Or do I need both? Or do I need to capture with another program?

I'm looking to pull the highest quality video that is editable into my computer from a DVD video. You seem to be a real editor, not just someone who cuts commercials out of Southpark, because you understand that mpg is not editable. So, please, tell me what you would do.

[Dionyssios Chalkias]

Originally Posted by Eric Stromblad

I assumed capturing is the best way to bring in editable video. Even if it is compressed to DV, isn't this the "least compressed" video I'm going to be able to get?

Back to my original question: I'm capturing through a consumer grade DVD player through ADS pyro through FW. Is there a better way to do things?

...

I'm looking to pull the highest quality video that is editable into my computer from a DVD video.

Perhaps I understand something wrong, but what (I think) you are trying to do is analogically capture digital video losing quality. I wouldn't do that. If I wanted editable video, I would insert my DVD content into Vegas, render to DV, then import the DV-AVIs into a new project.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

1. If source is DVD, it's already compromised fairly badly.
2. Capturing it as DV via a hardware converter that converts the analog out of the DVD player to DV is likely your best scenario. This way, it's a real-time capture. It might be your time isn't worth much. Importing VOB, converting to avi, then outputting as DVD again will remove roughly 90% of the chroma subsampling from what the DVD had in the first place.
3. Vegas, and few other NLE's are optimized for editing MPEG at low bitrates. Additionally, long GOP in low bitrate is a recipe for all sorts of trouble. You really want to be dealing with at *least* DV on the timeline.
Your media is already the *most* compressed it can be. Recapturing doesn't lessen the compression any, it merely compresses further, what is already compressed.
Looking at it differently...if you transfer VHS to HDCAM, does that make it 3:1:1 HDCAM? Well....it's a VHS *packaged* in a 3:1:1 package, but it still looks like crap, because the original was highly compressed/highly compromised.
At this point, you can't hope for keeping much quality, so following the original advice of capturing the DVD via analog converter, which is what it appears you are doing. Keep the cables short, and you'll lose virtually zero quality, but remember you're starting with very low grade footage to begin with.

[Eric Stromblad]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

1. If source is DVD, it's already compromised fairly badly.
2. Capturing it as DV via a hardware converter that converts the analog out of the DVD player to DV is likely your best scenario. This way, it's a real-time capture. It might be your time isn't worth much. Importing VOB, converting to avi, then outputting as DVD again will remove roughly 90% of the chroma subsampling from what the DVD had in the first place.
3. Vegas, and few other NLE's are optimized for editing MPEG at low bitrates. Additionally, long GOP in low bitrate is a recipe for all sorts of trouble. You really want to be dealing with at *least* DV on the timeline.
Your media is already the *most* compressed it can be. Recapturing doesn't lessen the compression any, it merely compresses further, what is already compressed.
Looking at it differently...if you transfer VHS to HDCAM, does that make it 3:1:1 HDCAM? Well....it's a VHS *packaged* in a 3:1:1 package, but it still looks like crap, because the original was highly compressed/highly compromised.
At this point, you can't hope for keeping much quality, so following the original advice of capturing the DVD via analog converter, which is what it appears you are doing. Keep the cables short, and you'll lose virtually zero quality, but remember you're starting with very low grade footage to begin with.

Thank you, this does make the most sense. I am going to do this for now, but might consider getting a decklink capture card and capturing uncompressed video (well....I mean, besides the compression on DVD....un-re-compressed is what I should say) I'll have to get a faster hard drive aray to handle it, but it might be worth it.

This isn't the worst possible source, though. I used to work at a non-profit Catholic TV production company and they would give me old news feeds taped onto VHS and then transfered to betacam (oh, the humanity!) I still have nightmares . . .