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Old April 15th, 2006, 01:51 PM   #1
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Vegas Template Setup for 16:9

I have taken footage at 1080i / 50fps then captured the M2t file with conect hd at 25-24fps. I am truelly lost at what I should set up my template in Vegas.

I wish to keep the full 16:9 to play on a plama tv that displays at 1280x720 and place it on dvd.
Pixal ratio I assume should be at 1.333 HDV 1080. And think I should set the width to 1280 and 720. Resoulution at good, motion blur Gausian and deinterlace at blend fields.

If this is correct so far, then the questions I have is, What would I set the field order? And what frame rate ? Should it be 24 since I catured it at 25-24 fps, or the 23.976 (IVTC film)?

Thanks for everyones help. Sure it seems simple to everyone else, but is driving me bonkers.....

Ted Wiersma
Phoenix, AZ
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Old April 16th, 2006, 09:13 AM   #2
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Whoa dude...

ok, first of all, ur in Yankeeland right?? unless ur CHOOSING to shoot in 50i, youre prolly actually shooting in 60i.. whats youre camera??

from here, if its 1080i fotage, and you want to deliver in HD at THAT SAME RESOLUTION, Dont use the 1280x720p settings.
If however you want to downscale your 1080i to 720p for progressive scan output then yeah go for 720p,

field order is usually set to upper for HDV, however if your scaling down to 720p, you DONT want ANY field order ,so turn it off...

also with deinterlcasing, instead of using blend fileds, Interpolate them. Just truest me on that one..

Ok here goes..

"I have taken footage at 1080i / 50fps then captured the M2t file with conect hd at 25-24fps. I am truelly lost at what I should set up my template in Vegas."

((Dude, tis either 24p OR 25p, not both.. u cant capture to BOTH formats as 25p and 24p are very different beasts with ALOT of mathematical differences... dont the one frame fool you...
Need to know what camera your shooting at.
Is there a reason u want to capture as progressive scan?? Dunno why youd want to either way.. ))

"I wish to keep the full 16:9 to play on a plama tv that displays at 1280x720 and place it on dvd.

((That aint gonna happen, DVD at this time is only 720x480 or 720 x 576. The highest resolution u can get on a DVD TODAY is 720x576 PAL progressive scan. with HD options coming out soon, id stick with the format which is closest to the original as possible.))

Pixal ratio I assume should be at 1.333 HDV 1080. And think I should set the width to 1280 and 720. Resoulution at good, motion blur Gausian and deinterlace at blend fields.

((Umm why dont u just use the HDV template for 1080i?? or 720p if u want to go progressive?? Vegas has LOADS of presets and theres no need for u to mess with the settings unless u really have to))

If this is correct so far, then the questions I have is, What would I set the field order?

((Upper for interlaced, off for progressive scan))

And what frame rate ? Should it be 24 since I catured it at 25-24 fps, or the 23.976 (IVTC film)?

((What is yoru source camera? and where did u buy it. Once we know the format o the camera, we can offer suggestions. as to which frame rate to stick with.. mind u in Vegas it DOESNT MATTER coz it will always work no matter what frame rate its running on.. this can be a probelm if people dont nw what theyre doing.. Its funny, i see aot of work from Newbie Vegas users and they only stick to presets and teh vegas prsets are all conformed with the US market, so many a time do i see PAL sourced material edited and rendered ou to NTSC... true story.. ))

Thanks for everyones help. Sure it seems simple to everyone else, but is driving me bonkers.....

((Best thing to do is let us know what version of vegas your running and what camera your using.
Then let us know what your trying to achieve and what kind of projcts your working on, coz this will really deptermine as to how the deinterlaing from 1080i to 720p will work (ie how clean teh conversion is)

cheers
P
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Old April 16th, 2006, 11:18 AM   #3
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Thanks

Thanks for clarification..

Sony Vegas 6 and Sony Z1u camcorder

Yes I do have the Sony Z1U set to film in 1080/50I as recommended by connect HD people who said to do so if I wanted to convert to something closer to a film look. Humm..May be headed the wrong direction!

So basically then, capture to the computer at 1080/50I, then edit the footage using the template in Vegas for 1080i/50. Since there is no way to actually see your video in HD except a computer, then really you shoot HD video to down convert it to SD if you want to view it on tv. My dvd player does play 1080i though, yet no software to get it to dvd yet. Even a small clip that you could loop would be great. LOL

The reason I thought you needed to capture the video in progressive scan and set vegas 6 up this way is so it could play from a dvd to a tv. Maybe that is why the video seems to have a flicker in it once I compile it to dvd.


The reason I wanted to keep the 16:9 format is so the 16:9 screen on the tv would show the whole picture, so for right now all the 16:9 footage has to be cropped to show on widescreen tv's via DVD?

This is what I am trying to do... Sounds like the ability is not there yet but will put it down it here.

Let's forget the 25 and 24 p, sounds like the wrong direction totally.

Shoot 1080i/50 fps, bring into vegas and edit it in that format.
(So select the template of 1080/50 in vegas and the defaults come up and that is what I will use.)

Next is to convert the footage to more of a film look that can be played on a 16:9 screen. The 16:9 screen is 1280x768. But it appears this is totally useless since there is no way to compile it to dvd in that resoulution once made. The momitsu dvd player I have says it will play those resolutions. So, yes it would be great to even create a short 4.7GB dvd to see the video in HD on the tv.

That is where I am headed on this project. The video is all outdoor scenery.

Thanks again for starting me in the right direction.
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Old April 16th, 2006, 10:08 PM   #4
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So basically then, capture to the computer at 1080/50I, then edit the footage using the template in Vegas for 1080i/50. Since there is no way to actually see your video in HD except a computer, then really you shoot HD video to down convert it to SD if you want to view it on tv. My dvd player does play 1080i though, yet no software to get it to dvd yet. Even a small clip that you could loop would be great. LOL

((Your DVD player does HD?? In what format?? if its DivX or MP4, u might be able to encode to that format and play back your footage athru the players file playback as opposed to DVD playback... If however its got a built in scaler, then i wouldnt bother with it.. ))

The reason I thought you needed to capture the video in progressive scan and set vegas 6 up this way is so it could play from a dvd to a tv.

((Nah dude, Let vegas do the work.. ))

Maybe that is why the video seems to have a flicker in it once I compile it to dvd.

((that flicker is interlace flicker... also ive noticed with high res progressive footag, flicker is noticable and this is basically only seen on an interlaced TV running progressive scan footage through SVideo. The tv is reinterlacing the footage, so the fileds are going nuts and u get that flicker. usually on fine lines and high res imagery and textures which use alot of variants in contrast))

The reason I wanted to keep the 16:9 format is so the 16:9 screen on the tv would show the whole picture, so for right now all the 16:9 footage has to be cropped to show on widescreen tv's via DVD?

((Nah dude, dead easy.. just stick with HDV and render out to any 16:9 format and make sure "do not letterbox" is checked. Youll fill your frame without a problem. U dont have to crop anything... ))

This is what I am trying to do... Sounds like the ability is not there yet but will put it down it here.
((Oh the ability IS there mate. Vegas can do ALOT of things on the fly as needed... what id suggest is this..

Depending on how u shot (cineframe25 or normal 1080i)
1-set up a vegas project based on HDV 1080i
2- select Progressive of you shot in cineframe and normal upper field if u didnt
3-Capture into vegas (doesnt matter what setting)
4- convert to cineform avi or u can use your decklink to capture directly to cineform
5- edit away
6- render out either to DV AVI or MPG2 for DVD in widescreen PAL (coz ur using 25p, u dont want frame rate interpolation if u dont need it.. coz that defeats the purpose of shooting PAL)
With this render, depending on how you shot, will determine whether your using progressive (cineframe) or normal. If shot normal, dont render as progressive.. jstu leave it.. if u used cineframe, then render out as progressive

and thats about it... ))

Let's forget the 25 and 24 p, sounds like the wrong direction totally.

((Not really.. u see it really depends on what u wanna do... but any form of frmae/progressive scan u do with this camera or in software will have an effect on image qaulity either way... ))

Shoot 1080i/50 fps, bring into vegas and edit it in that format.
((Yup... ))

(So select the template of 1080/50 in vegas and the defaults come up and that is what I will use.)
((yeah, but turn on ur deinterlacer to interpolation, coz when using effects and transitions, this plays a good part as to how its managed))

Next is to convert the footage to more of a film look that can be played on a 16:9 screen.
((OK for film look form this camera youve got 3 options.. this is for the LOOK from motion only.. i cant tell u how to compose a film like composition but the first option is to shoot cineframe, th second is to run your 1080i footage as progressive, i wouldnt recommend this as youd be interpolating half ur resolution, which defeats the purpose... however.. what i WOULD recommend, is to import your 1080i footage into a 1280x720p timeline
THis downconversion with the added bonus of teh vegas interpolator (one of the best on the market... or even with Mike Crahses adaptation of the deinterlacer) would downscale your footage in frame size, but the image will definately be MUCH sharper than it would be if u stuck with 1080i converted to progressive. Also Progressive scan is a DIFFERENT beast altogether as your shooting methods play the major role in that "film look"

When i do HD work with 4 cams (2 DVX100s 576p and 2 Z1s 1080i (downscaled to 720p), i use a 720p timeline as it alows me to upscale my SD footage and downscale my HDV footage and i get a pretty equal balance in quality with a very slight loss in shaprness from ths DVX which i get back by running the sharpness filter.. in fact i think the DVX footage looks better in this format (square pixels u see) but thats just my opinion...))

The 16:9 screen is 1280x768. But it appears this is totally useless since there is no way to compile it to dvd in that resoulution once made.
((Not yet, not unless u go HD DVD or BluRay, or Divx HD or WMV HD, or MP4... theyre slowly coming out, so keep a copy of ur project in HDV n tape and when the formats are ready jsut transfer to disc as needed. The TV isnet useless.. trust me.. im running a 1080p capable LCD projector and right now i cant milk the unit, but it doesnt make it useless. in fact ive never seen my SD fotage look this good.. lol))

The momitsu dvd player I have says it will play those resolutions. So, yes it would be great to even create a short 4.7GB dvd to see the video in HD on the tv.
((Like i said, it depends on the codecs which your player supports.. it can either upscale to those res, or run formats NATIVE to those resolutions.. thats the difference..

BUT what u can do here is finish your job and capture back to M2t tape and make a backup.. now run THE CAMERA back into the TV through the component out, run it as 1080i or 720p it doesnt mattercoz ur tv will scale accordingly, but if ur playing off tape, do it 1080i coz the Z1 dont do 720p... this way youll get to see ur footage on that screen of urs ;) ))

That is where I am headed on this project. The video is all outdoor scenery.
Thanks again for starting me in the right direction.

((good luck with it dude))
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Old April 17th, 2006, 01:34 AM   #5
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Thanks Peter

I really appreciate you clarifing all this. I have been trying to get this info for about 2 weeks on different forums, from software people I got my software from and sony. No one could give me any info that made any sense. This explaned alot. I will try some of your suggestions but for now will start on the basic setup you explained and work from there. Shooting at 1080/50, edit, then render at 1080/25 pal and back up to tape for the future when technology catches up with us. Then go back and tinker around with a copy using the 1280x720p template.

Think I got a handle on it now. Main thing is I can see right now is save the footage in the highest Quality till blu-ray or HD Dvd comes out and gets down to a dollar a disk. LOL

So when you compile a dvd in say dvd architect, does not matter whether the AVI or mpg file is progressive or saved as interlaced. When compiling the footage, the dvd autoring software will create what is need for playing on tv. I was always confused if my tv here in the states played pal. Think that was the thing that always threw me on the learning curve. What would play on what. Seems somewhere I missed the bridge before crossing the river to the other side.

Thanks again for your time, advice and patience,

Ted Wiersmaa
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 07:27 AM   #6
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Ok, got it I think

Think I got it. Posted my setup here at the link below. will give this a run and see what happens. Took pictures of each setup page from connecthd to vegas, vegas,, then to dvd architect, then in dvd architect.
http://www.thirstyrock.com/Edit.htm

Thanks Again
Ted W
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 08:03 AM   #7
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it all looks good, however on vegas.gif3, it looks like your rendering uncompressed?? Theres really no need for this unless your dong HEAPS of effect and colour work and having to render and re-render.
Even with that thguoh, Cinform allows for about 15 generations before really killing itsself off.. unlike DV where u have 4 or 5..

If u use the HDV templates (intermediate) it will use the cineform codec to create an AVI for you.
Now, WHY does it look like crap??
Coz uncompressed DV is default lower field first, so whats happening, is that your field order is nuking itself.
For that "film look" once uve completed your edit render out to MPG progressive scan, and keep your preferences the wya they are..

Once u have that AVI,u can literally drop it into the DVDA timeline and it will convert it to MPG2 (and adjust the size to fit)

To be honest, when i shoot with teh Z1, i edit everythign as Interlaced using Cineform intermediates.
Now once the edit is completed, (im shooting 50i also) i THEN render it all out to PAL DV..

Now with YOUR dvd, you can do the same thing..
Now only will you get higher resolution, but the frame interlace issue youre getting now SHOULD vanish, and the only difference is 1 frame. To teh human eye, this is hardly noticable, and the fact that DVDs made in DVDA will play on ANY player, it doesnt matter if your doing it in PAL or NTSC.

I think u shoudl jsut stick to pal, and leav eit at that. Its a safer bet, and youll have less hassles. NEXT time though, id say shoot in 60i, THEN aply your 2:3 pulldown IN VEGAS, (ie shoo tinterlaced 60i, import Interlaced footage to Vegas 24p progressive timeline) and this issue SHOULD also vanish...
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Old May 2nd, 2006, 09:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Wiersmaa
Think I got it. Posted my setup here at the link below. will give this a run and see what happens. Took pictures of each setup page from connecthd to vegas, vegas,, then to dvd architect, then in dvd architect.
Ted, I have a recommendation on your setup. I assume you are going for the 24p look. In that case you should change you Connect HD options. The reason their web site suggests shooting in 50i is so they can slow it down to 24p for you but you didnít select this option in their software. Also they recommend you shoot in CineFrame25 (CF25) mode not just 50i. This will get you the closest to 24p.

What you should do is shoot CF25. Then in your CineForm HDLink Preferences try:

Capture Options:
[x] Automatically convert to CineForm Intermediate (*.avi)

CineForm Encoder Options:
HD File Size: [x] Medium
Frame Format: [x] Progressive

Frame Rate Change (Advanced):
Rate Change: 25p to 23.976p (-4.1%)
[x] Maintain audio pitch

This will give you a source file that is true progressive 23.976 inverse telecine (IVTC). Now set up your Vegas project as you were: DV Widescreen 23.976 and youíll be editing in 24p. When you render, also select the 24p templates that add 2-3 pulldown. This way your project stays 24p. You can try this with your 50i footage but you may have interlacing problems. Itís really meant to be used with CF25 footage.

Optionally, you can keep your camera in NTSC mode and shoot CineFrame24 (CF24) and use the Remove 3:2 Pulldown (CF24 mode) option which will also get you very nice looking 24p footage. There are lots comments on how jerky CF24 mode is but the Connect HD Remove Pulldown options takes the jerkiness out and gives you back 24p with no pulldown.

I see a comment in your MPEG settings that says:

I have tryed the MPEG and used the default. the 24p settings only bring in the video, and do not grab the sound tracks with it. Found this out after rendering fo 6 hours. Ouch, that hurts !

No it doesnít hurt. Thatís exactly what you should be doing. Select the DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream which renders just the video. Then go back and render the audio as Stereo AC3. Make the filename the same (with AC3 extension) and DVD Architect will pick up both the video and audio when you drop the video into it.

The reason I say this doesnít hurt is because NTSC DVDís require AC3 (or PCM) audio. If you render your audio as MPEG2, then DVD Architect is going to re-encode it in AC3. So you have already lost quality going to MPEG2 and you will lose more going to AC3. It is must better to render your AC3 audio direct from your PCM uncompressed timeline in Vegas.

~jr
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 01:32 PM   #9
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Thanks

Thanks for the information. Really appreciate all the in depth info from everyone.Will try again and see what turns out today.


Ted Wiersmaa
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 02:39 PM   #10
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Clarification

I am getting ready to render following Peter's suggesstion above. But now I need clarification. Do I render to mpg? or avi?

"For that film look once youve complted your edit render out to mpg progressive scan, and keep your preferences the way they are. Once u have that AVI, u can literally drop it into the DVDA timeline and it will convert it to MPG2(and adjust the size to fit).. So after edit do I make an MPeg file or an AVI. Sorry I am a little confused.

If DVD Architect is going to make the adjustments, could I not just render the video as is in the vegas preferences 1080/25 as a avi. then bring the AVI into DVDA and set it to make NTSC 720x 480 ?

I thought Pal would not play on TV's here in the states. Do they play but just drop lines or something?

Does DVD Architect take a rendered Pal video from vegas then convert it to NTSC video if that is what I am trying to acheive so it can be played on tv's here in the states? If it does, then should have I just set up the Vegas template as hdv 720/25 ?

If so, then rendering at original quality that the footage was shot at then only converting it once in dvd architect would work by setting up what you want to render as in DVDA?
Everything is setting on the timeline edited and background music. Hate to have to go and delete it and start over.


Dang, keeps getting more confusing.

I will try Johns technique above on my next capture, but rigt now trying to save the mess I have on the computer already.
Is there someone in arizona that I could get a class from who has done this before?
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Old May 4th, 2006, 08:46 PM   #11
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Opps my bad..

"If DVD Architect is going to make the adjustments, could I not just render the video as is in the vegas preferences 1080/25 as a avi. then bring the AVI into DVDA and set it to make NTSC 720x 480 ? "
((Yup, u can do that.. even with Cineform avi's))


I thought Pal would not play on TV's here in the states. Do they play but just drop lines or something?
((Heres the problem.. some players will play this back in BW, while MOST dvd players will play it in colour.. ))

Does DVD Architect take a rendered Pal video from vegas then convert it to NTSC video if that is what I am trying to acheive so it can be played on tv's here in the states?
((It can, but i woudnt import MPG to DVDA then to reencode for NTSC.. thats a 2 way MPG render which u DONT want..))

If it does, then should have I just set up the Vegas template as hdv 720/25 ?
((you can do ti this way, depending on the drunt of your machine.. for efficiency stick with DV, but if your shooting and editnig in HDV, you then have the option to delivery in any format you like.
If however yor shooting HDV, using cineform in vegas on an SD timeline, u can digitally pan and crop your shots with virtually no loss in quality (to a point.. )
I know people whove shots stagee shows with on camera on a wie shot, in editing they pan zoomn and crop the frames from one actor to another and it looke like its off two cameras.. now the zoom is only about half but still, its better than nothin.. ))


If so, then rendering at original quality that the footage was shot at then only converting it once in dvd architect would work by setting up what you
want to render as in DVDA?

((Exactomundo))

Everything is setting on the timeline edited and background music. Hate to have to go and delete it and start over.

What u can do is finsih your edit ONCE..
import that to DVDA and tell IT what kind of DVD you want to make. It will take care of teh rest (ie encoding quality and format<ntsc or pal>

easy peasy :)
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