Convert project to 24p when project has been edited 29.970 fps?

[James Binder]

Curious to know what problems I may encounter if I were to convert a completed project with project properties previously set as NTSC DV 720x480, 29.970 -- to 24p?

Can I simply go back and change the project properties to NTSC 24p – after having done the complete edit/graphics (with NTSC DV 29.970 project setup) and then render as a 24p mpeg2? (for DVD)

Does this sound correct? And…do I then render to 24p DVD architect with 2:3 pull down?

I’ve read a lot of info around the boards, but can’t seem to find the answer to converting a project to 24p if you didn’t initially set it up as 24p…

Thanks!

Vegas 7.0d
footage: 60i

[Jarrod Whaley]

I wouldn't really recommend doing this unless it's absolutely necessary, because you'll be throwing out a pretty huge amount of resolution. However, if you must do this, here are some things to be aware of:

It should be as simple to do as how you've been thinking of doing it... in theory (you could also just render straight to 24p). However, you might find that there are nasty lingering fields from the original interlaced video at many or all of your edits. If you try changing the frame rate in the project properties, make sure you watch your project very, very carefully--particularly around the edits--to make sure there aren't any strange fade-outs or fade-ins... or lingering fields "combed" over the first frames of clips after edits, and things like that. Just make sure everything looks OK.

One thing to be aware of: unless your computer is fast enough that you can preview your project in the "best" setting, you may not see the above-described issues even if they're there until after you render and view on an NTSC monitor. Before you commit to a complete render of your project, you might want to render out a small chunk in 24p and then look at it on a NTSC monitor to make sure there are no nasty crossfades or anything on your edits.

[James Binder]

Originally Posted by Jarrod Whaley

I wouldn't really recommend doing this unless it's absolutely necessary, because you'll be throwing out a pretty huge amount of resolution...

How much is actually lost due to deinterlacing? Is it half of your vertical resolution – or is it less because of blending?

And if so, is it better to shoot 24p initially rather than convert from 60i to 24p (final render)? I’m assuming in that situation, you keep the full resolution (coming from you’re your ccd chips) – no?

So then, as I understand it – you can achieve a 24p ‘look’ when rendering from 60i footage, but lose quality/resolution. It’s better then to shoot 24p (if you have the option) to maintain full resolution in the final render…

Sound right?

Regarding switching the properties after the fact – yes, I thought I might run into problem with edit points, etc. I don’t think I will mess with it though -- if in fact there is a large loss in resolution – doesn’t seem worth it…

Thanks for the help…

[David Jimerson]

If a 24p finish is what you want, then absolutely it is better to shoot 24p originally. Progressive footage is inherently higher-resolution than interlaced footage, anyway.

You can lose up to half your vertical resolution when you convert. You can save more resolution by using "Blend Fields" as your deinterlace method, but if you're rendering a whole project, you do NOT want to use "Blend Fields." You want to use "Interpolate Fields."

If you do have all 60i footage and you're interested in a 24p finish, convert all of it before you edit and then edit in 24p.

[Mauritius Seeger]

Originally Posted by James Binder

I’ve read a lot of info around the boards, but can’t seem to find the answer to converting a project to 24p if you didn’t initially set it up as 24p…

footage: 60i

as far as i understand the project setting represent what you _have_ as opposed to what you _want_ to output. the latter you set in the render options. so, since your footage is 60i you need to set the project to represent that. ie. 30fps, lower field first or whatever. otherwise vegas will not treat the video in the correct way.

for example, if you render to a progressive file format and your source footage is interlaced, vegas will automatically apply a deinterlacing step. however if you project setting (incorrectly) is progressive, vegas will not deinterlace and you will end up with an interlaced signal even though you wanted progressive.

hope this helps.

[James Binder]

Thanks for the reply --

Okay – lets see if I have this straight. In order to create 24p from a 29.97 interlaced timeline (project settings), all I need to do is ‘render as’ 24p NTSC .

I do not need to change the project properties first. Correct?

And… do I insert 2:3 pulldown as well? (rendering to DVD Architect 24p NTSC)

Thanks --

[Mauritius Seeger]

Originally Posted by James Binder

Thanks for the reply --

Okay – lets see if I have this straight. In order to create 24p from a 29.97 interlaced timeline (project settings), all I need to do is ‘render as’ 24p NTSC .

I do not need to change the project properties first. Correct?

And… do I insert 2:3 pulldown as well? (rendering to DVD Architect 24p NTSC)

Thanks --

yes, thats right

but not sure about pulldown - never done that.

to be honest, make a short clip and experiemnt. it's the best way to be sure.

[David Jimerson]

Originally Posted by James Binder

Thanks for the reply --

Okay – lets see if I have this straight. In order to create 24p from a 29.97 interlaced timeline (project settings), all I need to do is ‘render as’ 24p NTSC .

I do not need to change the project properties first. Correct?

And… do I insert 2:3 pulldown as well? (rendering to DVD Architect 24p NTSC)

Thanks --

If you're rendering to the DVD Architect 24p templates, do NOT change them. Leave the "+ 2:3 Pulldown" in place. This will insert pulldown flags (but not actual pulldown fields) which the DVD player will follow to insert 2:3 pulldown ONLY when it's being played on a standard NTSC TV. This will allow the 24p video to be shown on a 60i TV, but it will not change the aesthetic of the 24p. In other words, it will still look like 24p and not like 60i again.

If you do not include the "+ 2:3 Pulldown," DVD Architect will simply have to rerender your video, costing you time.

If you're rendering to tape, then the choice of which pulldown scheme to use boils down to this -- if you're planning to edit the rendered footage any further, or if anyone else intends to, use 2:3:3:2 pulldown. If not, if it's only going to be watched, then use 2:3 pulldown.

[James Binder]

David -- thanks for the input –

The more I test, the more I realize that rendering out to 24p from footage shot (standard def) 60i – doesn’t looks so hot. You really do lose quite a bit of resolution.

As a test, I opened my 24p (rendered) and the original 60i timeline version (of a project I’m working on) in different instances of Vegas. I then froze on the same frame in both and switched back and forth between the 24p and 60i versions. Wow – you can plainly see the loss of resolution.

Not sure why anybody would want to do this (render from 60i to 24p). Perhaps if it were coming from an HD source? Even then, it seems like you would lose resolution – no?

Lesson learned here – shoot 24p if that’s what you want in the end…

[David Jimerson]

Well, you also need to shoot your 60i as though you were shooting 24p all along -- meaning, slow camera motion. Else, you'll end up with nasty motion artifacting and strobing.

But yeah -- if you want 24p, get there as soon as possible, and that should be at acquisition.