Dreaded 1 frame cross fades converting to 24p!! at DVinfo.net

Jim Justice · January 25th, 2007, 07:28 PM

THis has been talked about recently, but can someone please inform me how to render out a 29.97fps project to 24p without getting those dreaded single frames cross fades at the cuts on the final project.

I've read that this may happen, but is there a way to correct this?

The only way I THINK that this may be accomplished, I havent done it yet, but is to render each indivdual 29.97 clip out to 24p and then edit them in a new 24p project. Am I thinking right here? If so, I think I may just have to break down and get that new 24p capable cam!!!

John Rofrano · January 27th, 2007, 01:16 PM

You are correct. This is one of the reason's we created VASST Celluloid. It converts all of your 60i footage to 24p and then changes your project to 24p so that all of your editing is done in 24p and all of your cuts and crossfades stay exactly where you put them. This should be done as the very first thing before you start editing.

~jr

David Jimerson · January 28th, 2007, 01:37 PM

Definitely. If 24p output is what you want, get into 24p as early as you can.

Ideally, that means shooting 24p. But if you don't have a 24p camera, always convert before you edit.

Dan Measel · January 29th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Will DVArchitect reintroduce new one frame crossfades when it converts it to 23fps 2-3 pulldown? It doesn't seem to want to make a DVD in 24p.

John Rofrano · January 30th, 2008, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Measel

Will DVArchitect reintroduce new one frame crossfades when it converts it to 23fps 2-3 pulldown? It doesn't seem to want to make a DVD in 24p.

The idea is to work on a 24p timeline and render to MPEG2 in 24p and then DVD Architect will do nothing. It just creates a DVD from your "already compliant" MPEG2 files and does not touch the contents.

~jr

Dan Measel · January 30th, 2008, 09:42 PM

Hmm. Anytime a burn a disc with an mpg2 24p project DVDA recompresses it. But I'm using 3.0. Is that a change in version 4?

Seth Bloombaum · January 31st, 2008, 12:24 PM

Dan, I'm not on the 24p bandwagon, but...

Have you confirmed that your MPEG2 renders are below about 3.8GB total? DVDA rerender is common (and looks terrible) when the original render out of Vegas doesn't fit on the DVD.

Volume 1 #7 of Edward Troxel's newsletters goes into Vegas render settings and bitrates in detail, jetdv.com.

Perhaps you're already all over this, but this DVDA behaviour is normal under some circumstances... and the answer would then be to rerender in Vegas at lower bitrates.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 1st, 2008, 12:10 AM

If you're using the 24p preset, and not the 23.97 preset, then DVDA will recompress everything, as 24p itself, is not for DVD output

Jeff Harper · February 1st, 2008, 06:17 AM

Tell me something please about the 24 conversion thing. If I take ordinary footage that was shot at 60fps as virtually all my footage is and edit and render to 24p, what is the general difference in appearance? I know it would be hard to describe, I'm asking conversationally, for a general idea.

I read DSE's article on it months ago as I recall ideally it should be shot with cinematic style in mind, ie., shoot using depth of field etc., etc., but my footage is generally captured run and gun style. I know you cannot turn digital video shot in ordinary fashion and make it appear "like a real movie".

I could try it and probably will, but thought I'd investigate first as I don't have time to play with it yet.

Dan Measel · February 1st, 2008, 07:34 PM

Thanks DSE, that clears that up for me. I wish I could get rid of that one frame crossfade, although it is only in a few spots.

JH - Personally for the feature film I'm shooting I converted it, largely because it is mixed with animations done at 24fps. It's difficult to explain the appearance. You should try what I did. I used the same video and rendered it @ 29 fps and 24p and watched them side by side to see which I liked best for what I was doing and to see the difference. All in all it is one of a bunch of different tricks you can combine to get more of a film look. I will say I don't like it as well for my high action shots as I do for the shots with less movement.

Jeff Harper · February 1st, 2008, 08:50 PM

Thanks for the feedback Dan. It sounds interesting. I'm coming up on some relatively slow periods soon and intend to do what you suggest. I will keep in mind that the slower motion footage might be most suitable.

John Rofrano · February 3rd, 2008, 02:01 PM

What's important to understand is that a project frame rate of "24.000 (Film)" is only to be used when you are working with real film transfers. Otherwise what most of us loosely call "24p" is really a project frame rate of "23.976 (IVTC Film)" which DVD Architect should not re-encode.

~jr

Dan Measel · February 3rd, 2008, 04:31 PM

That was what was confusing me. Perhaps a solution to the one frame crossfade would be for me to import my 24p (which are animations so truly 24p) on a 23.976 timeline instead of 24. Anyone tried this?

January 25th, 2007, 07:28 PM	#1
Jim Justice Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 38	Dreaded 1 frame cross fades converting to 24p!! THis has been talked about recently, but can someone please inform me how to render out a 29.97fps project to 24p without getting those dreaded single frames cross fades at the cuts on the final project. I've read that this may happen, but is there a way to correct this? The only way I THINK that this may be accomplished, I havent done it yet, but is to render each indivdual 29.97 clip out to 24p and then edit them in a new 24p project. Am I thinking right here? If so, I think I may just have to break down and get that new 24p capable cam!!! Last edited by Jim Justice; January 25th, 2007 at 08:42 PM.

January 27th, 2007, 01:16 PM	#2
John Rofrano Sponsor: VASST Join Date: May 2005 Location: New York Posts: 516	You are correct. This is one of the reason's we created VASST Celluloid. It converts all of your 60i footage to 24p and then changes your project to 24p so that all of your editing is done in 24p and all of your cuts and crossfades stay exactly where you put them. This should be done as the very first thing before you start editing. ~jr __________________ Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Scattershot 3D, Mayhem, FASST Apps, and other VASST Software plug-ins Web Site: www.johnrofrano.com

January 28th, 2007, 01:37 PM	#3
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Definitely. If 24p output is what you want, get into 24p as early as you can. Ideally, that means shooting 24p. But if you don't have a 24p camera, always convert before you edit. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

February 1st, 2008, 12:10 AM	#8
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	If you're using the 24p preset, and not the 23.97 preset, then DVDA will recompress everything, as 24p itself, is not for DVD output __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 3rd, 2008, 02:01 PM	#12
John Rofrano Sponsor: VASST Join Date: May 2005 Location: New York Posts: 516	What's important to understand is that a project frame rate of "24.000 (Film)" is only to be used when you are working with real film transfers. Otherwise what most of us loosely call "24p" is really a project frame rate of "23.976 (IVTC Film)" which DVD Architect should not re-encode. ~jr __________________ Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Scattershot 3D, Mayhem, FASST Apps, and other VASST Software plug-ins Web Site: www.johnrofrano.com

January 29th, 2008, 10:45 AM	#4
Dan Measel Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 196	Will DVArchitect reintroduce new one frame crossfades when it converts it to 23fps 2-3 pulldown? It doesn't seem to want to make a DVD in 24p.

January 30th, 2008, 09:42 PM	#6
Dan Measel Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 196	Hmm. Anytime a burn a disc with an mpg2 24p project DVDA recompresses it. But I'm using 3.0. Is that a change in version 4?

January 31st, 2008, 12:24 PM	#7
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Dan, I'm not on the 24p bandwagon, but... Have you confirmed that your MPEG2 renders are below about 3.8GB total? DVDA rerender is common (and looks terrible) when the original render out of Vegas doesn't fit on the DVD. Volume 1 #7 of Edward Troxel's newsletters goes into Vegas render settings and bitrates in detail, jetdv.com. Perhaps you're already all over this, but this DVDA behaviour is normal under some circumstances... and the answer would then be to rerender in Vegas at lower bitrates.

February 1st, 2008, 06:17 AM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Tell me something please about the 24 conversion thing. If I take ordinary footage that was shot at 60fps as virtually all my footage is and edit and render to 24p, what is the general difference in appearance? I know it would be hard to describe, I'm asking conversationally, for a general idea. I read DSE's article on it months ago as I recall ideally it should be shot with cinematic style in mind, ie., shoot using depth of field etc., etc., but my footage is generally captured run and gun style. I know you cannot turn digital video shot in ordinary fashion and make it appear "like a real movie". I could try it and probably will, but thought I'd investigate first as I don't have time to play with it yet.

February 1st, 2008, 07:34 PM	#10
Dan Measel Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 196	Thanks DSE, that clears that up for me. I wish I could get rid of that one frame crossfade, although it is only in a few spots. JH - Personally for the feature film I'm shooting I converted it, largely because it is mixed with animations done at 24fps. It's difficult to explain the appearance. You should try what I did. I used the same video and rendered it @ 29 fps and 24p and watched them side by side to see which I liked best for what I was doing and to see the difference. All in all it is one of a bunch of different tricks you can combine to get more of a film look. I will say I don't like it as well for my high action shots as I do for the shots with less movement.

February 1st, 2008, 08:50 PM	#11
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Thanks for the feedback Dan. It sounds interesting. I'm coming up on some relatively slow periods soon and intend to do what you suggest. I will keep in mind that the slower motion footage might be most suitable.

February 3rd, 2008, 04:31 PM	#13
Dan Measel Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 196	That was what was confusing me. Perhaps a solution to the one frame crossfade would be for me to import my 24p (which are animations so truly 24p) on a 23.976 timeline instead of 24. Anyone tried this?