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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:01 PM   #1
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Flickering, fluttering, cheap look solution from vegas to architect

After an entire week and countless hours of searching for answers on what causes the flickering or oscillation on bright or white objects edge, and just home video looking flutter bouncing around or ripply waves like heat off a road in places when burning a DVD in Architect after rendering an MPEG 2 from Vegas, I have finally figured out the way to beat it. I was shooting 30P widescreen Canon XL2. I am certain this will work for 24P also, but it is likely the problem won't be as noticable in 24P. But for this project, I didn't want too much of the stuccado look, so I shot in the 30P and rendered 29.976 or whatever it is. I found this solution by rendering a file uncompressed as an .avi file instead of MPEG. The file was for a 3 minute video and it ended up being 7.4GB in size after rendering it this way. I just wanted to see what would happen if I sent this uncompressed file to architect to be burned on DVD. Obviously it was too big, but Architect will actually render it or compress it to a compatible file for DVD. When I done this, the picture was almost flicker free and not a much bigger file than it was going MPEG. THIS IS NOT THE SOLUTION, BUT HOW I DISCOVERED IT.

THE SOLUTION: Before you render the file, if using bright colors, add the sony chromablur effect and turn both vertical and horizontal about half each. Then add the effect Quick blur and turn it up to about 75%. You will not notice much of a difference here at all. But the difference comes along with that when you render. Now click Render as MPEG 2. Choose The DVD Architect template for NTSC widescreen or standard whichever your preference. Click on the Custom button. Click on the Video tab and make sure you have 29.976 or whatever render frame rate you have chosen. Heres the biggy...Make sure Variable bit Rate is selected and change all 3 bit rate boxes to these: 9,800,000 top box and 8,000,000 middle and 4,200,000 for bottom box. Then click Advanced Video Tab. UNCHECK the box that says "allow field-based motion compensation". This box is near the top I believe. Now go to bottom and click OK. Name your file if you havn't already, and click SAVE. The file will be rendered a little larger, but I see a ton more depth in the final result when going to DVD. If anyone has better bitrate numbers, I am all ears. I just discovered these thru trial and error. In 24P the "allow field-based motion compensation" box is unchecked by default so you will only change the bitrate. But, in 30P, the box is checked by default. YOU MUST UNCHECK IT to do away with the flicker. I am so happy, I have been banging my head against my desk trying to figure out how to fix it and I finally did it with a deep clear picture. It has worked time and time again today. I hope this helps someone else, I know I cannot be the only one that has had this problem...It makes the picture look so much more like a Hollywood motion picture.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 02:12 AM   #2
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Update

After further testing, the quick blur should be reduced to 25%, at least on this particular project. I am sure it will very depending on who is shooting and what settings and surroundings you have. Here is a quick rundown of the suggested fix for the unwanted anamolies or object flicker. Sorry for the description, I do not know any other way to describe it:

Make sure all editing is done and video is how you desire it and you are ready to render.

Set Chroma blur if shooting with much color at about half both sliders.
Set Quick blur at about 25%
File tab click Render as
Add filename and choose MPEG2
For the template, choose DVD Architect NTSC, choose widescreen or not, choose 24P if rendering in 24P otherwise choose to match your input.
Click Custom button, Video Tab, Verify frame rate, quality slider all the way to right, and make sure Variable bit rate selected and change bit rate to these numbers: 9,800,000 top, 8,000,000 middle, 4,200,000 bottom. Click Advanced Video tab. UNCHECK "allow field-based motion compensation" if rendering in anything other than 24P. This is already unchecked for you if using 24P. Save your settings for next time, then click SAVE and render.
If you have the time, select "Two Pass" on the video tab...it will take much longer to render but will provide a higher quality end result.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 06:07 AM   #3
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john i havent read through all your posts..
BUT

one thing about vegas, predomaintely with interlaced footage or dinterlaced interlaced footage which is now progressive, is that highlgihts and blown out peaks WILL flutter.

use your levels filter and the vectorscope to manage this issue
there is no need to blur anything

this MUST be done at the source level of the clip else all other fixed and filters wont behave the right way.
fix the exposure and you wont have an issue.
Do NOT use colour corrector... use levels and if u need to boost certain ranges, use curves.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 12:05 PM   #4
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I share Peter's concern. I'm guessing you have found a cheat that reduces the effect of illegal chroma and/or luminance values on your displays. However (if this is so), you have no assurance as to how different TVs and DVD players will treat your video.

Have you used the scopes on your project to assure that video is less than 100 IRE on the wf and chroma doesn't go outside the target areas on the vectorscope?

Pretty easy to color-correct into illegal territory... It isn't easy to match the tonal range of a hollywood commercial release and stay within NTSC standards, as they do.

If you do find illegal values, a quick fix is to use the broadcast colors filter on the project. Better is to do all correction work with an eye on the scopes.

Why do we care about "illegal" values if it looks right to the eye? Because the NTSC standard lays out what all equipment must reproduce. Go outside the standard and different displays and transmission systems will produce different results. For example, whites over 100 IRE will produce a nasty buzzing noise on many TVs, and the edges will crawl like mad.

OTOH... if all your chroma/luma values are good, more power to you for finding an improvement to rendering for 30p!
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Old March 27th, 2007, 02:06 PM   #5
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I wish someone had told me about the vectroscope and levels when I was asking all these questions. I did check and it was outside the vectroscope. I corrected that but still found the above method to produce a better deeper picture. The chroma blur and a tiny bit of quick blur do help a bit. The amount of quick blur at 25% is not too much, the only effect it has is positive, helps clean up the noise. I assume by upping the bit rates I am just increasing the quality of the picture by layering the file? I know it increases the size of the file. The best improvement I have found on 30P processing is unchecking the box under advance properties that says "allow field-based motion compensation." Anyway, thanks for the help to all.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 03:56 PM   #6
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John, thank you! I have a 30p project going right now, and will definately try out your render settings for quick blur and field-motion comp.

When I first looked at your encode bitrates, I thought you were over the standard, but on rereading the standard I see you're right at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.4
***edit*** whoops, just looked at the copyright notice, I really shouldn't be pasting this text. Go to the link above for a good reference on the dvd standard.
I've not run the numbers, but at the higher bitrates you're using you do slightly reduce the amount of content you can put on one DVD. As a general rule of thumb, the default encode settings in Vegas will allow *about* 1.5 hrs of content on one DVD.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 08:46 PM   #7
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Vectroscoping!

Would someone tell me what settings am I looking for or maximum settings on the vectroscope and histogram, waveform and RGB parade? It will be easy to adjust them but I see no schooling in vegas as to exactly what to try to achieve. If I ever learn anything that might help someone, the first thing I do is post it to try and help others. I know the misery of spending forever trying to solve a problem. Thanks!
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Old March 27th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #8
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"helps clean up the noise."

try the dynamic noise reduction plugin..
i use this when i have to boost gain when available lighting sux, but grain becomes ugly, this plugin cleans it and leaves virtaully no noise
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Old March 27th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson View Post
"helps clean up the noise."

try the dynamic noise reduction plugin..
i use this when i have to boost gain when available lighting sux, but grain becomes ugly, this plugin cleans it and leaves virtaully no noise
where exactly is this plugin? I have sony vegas 7 and do not see it on my list of effects or anywhere else. I would love to try it though. J
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Old March 27th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #10
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Never mind, I found it, looks great so far. I would still like to know what I am supposed to do with the vectorscope. Any help much appreciated. J
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Old March 27th, 2007, 11:26 PM   #11
 
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Virtually any book on color correction covers scopes fairly well, I recommend Jaime Fowler/Steve Hullfish book. Has some very good info in there.
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Old April 3rd, 2007, 06:33 PM   #12
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I can not find the dynamic noise reduction fx. Does this come with Vegas 7?
If it does how does one find it?
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