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Doug Bischoff January 20th, 2005 09:43 AM

DVRack and 24PA incompatible?
 
Hello, all!

During a shoot using the demo version of the DVRack software from Serious Magic, we ran into a possible problem.

We're shooting on a DVX-100A and were configured to be in 24 frames, progressive, advanced pulldown. The DVRack was acting as our hard disk recorder.

When we pulled the AVI files into Final Cut Pro HD for editing, FCP saw all the files as being NTSC standard 29.97 fps. Selecting the file and choosing "Tools->Advanced Pulldown Removal" got the error "there is no advanced pulldown to remove!"

Cinema Tools wouldn't even recognize the AVI files to open them at all.

Any ideas on how to get 24PA to work from DVRack into FCP?

Thanks,

Barry Green January 20th, 2005 04:34 PM

I've used DV Rack/24PA in Vegas and it works perfectly. DV Rack records what's coming out the firewire port, which should be an identical clone of what's on the DV tape.

I'd recommend posting this in the FCP forum, as I'm 110% certain that the files DV Rack records are perfectly DV-compliant 24PA files.

Karl Soule January 21st, 2005 02:09 PM

Hi Doug,

DV Rack records whatever the camera is feeding it, which will be a 29.97fps "pulldown" of the 24PA footage. It doesn't write anything special in the file header "flagging" the footage as 24PA.

Does FCP have any special "capture mode" when capturing 24PA footage, like a special setting you have to make to inform FCP you are capturing 24PA?

how does FCP handle 24PA footage captured in other programs, like iMovie?

Do you have any 24PA footage from a previous shoot on tape you can test with? Try playing back the tape, and capture with DV Rack in Quicktime format, and import the footage. Does it also give you the error message?

Doug Bischoff January 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Karl Soule : Does FCP have any special "capture mode" when capturing 24PA footage, like a special setting you have to make to inform FCP you are capturing 24PA? -->>>

It does have a setting which will instruct it to remove advanced pulldown when pulling from tape, yes.

<<<-- Originally posted by Karl Soule : how does FCP handle 24PA footage captured in other programs, like iMovie? -->>>

Hmmm... I have never used another program to capture footage. I can give it a shot in Combustion and see what happens!

<<<-- Originally posted by Karl Soule : Do you have any 24PA footage from a previous shoot on tape you can test with? Try playing back the tape, and capture with DV Rack in Quicktime format, and import the footage. Does it also give you the error message? -->>>

DVRack can capture in QuickTime format? That is also helpful to know.

The trouble seems to be in that there is no option to remove advanced pulldown during an import session, only during a capture from tape session. There is a menu command for "Remove Advanced Pulldown" but that's where the error message comes up.

I'll do some more poking around and see what I can find. Thanks for your help!

Karl Soule January 21st, 2005 02:23 PM

Hi Doug,

If you are editing in FCP, you should definitely be capturing in QuickTime format. FCP prefers QuickTime, and it could be that the "Remove Advanced Pulldown" option only works with native QuickTime files.

Marc Sacco January 26th, 2005 02:36 PM

can Dv Rack flip the image?
 
just wondered, can the incoming video be "FLIPPED" and recorded that way? reason being anyone using the adapters (like the micro35 or other "homemade" adapters) to get better DOF using 35mm lenses for a "film' look has the problem of the image being upside down(others can describe this more acurately than me) . this requires us to "flip" it in post. (unless they have used a prism device or other relatively expensive approach) it would be great to have a program like this that would record the image directly from the camera (with this adapter) already flipped.

any chance this is already something that can be adjusted in Dv Rack?

if not, please put it on the list. there is a large number of people out there trying to achieve a more filmic look using these adapters and would find your product an invaluable tool if this were part of it (see the alternate imaging forum).

thank you,
Marc
www.zenimage.com

Barry Green January 27th, 2005 02:35 AM

Not with DV Rack, no. DV Rack records the raw unmodified signal, and only the raw unmodified signal. It can't and won't do anything to the signal. DV Rack's tools let you monitor the signal in all sorts of ways, but not modify the signal.

Mark Mapes January 27th, 2005 01:06 PM

Marc,
That's a new one on me. I've added it to the list. As Barry explained, DV Rack records the DV stream directly without touching it in any way, so I seriously doubt we will be changing anything in the recorded clip. However, we may at least be able to flip the image for display in the Field Monitor.

Thanks,

Dennis Sladek January 28th, 2005 12:11 AM

Just flip it in your NLE. You're gonna' stick it in your NLE anyway.
That's how I do it.

Marc Sacco January 28th, 2005 06:54 AM

yes thats how i (we) do it now but it requires that the footgae be rendered. if im shooting a whole feature with a 35mm adapter then im going to have a lot of footage that will need to be rendered before editing. i am looking for an easier way to manipulate the image without having to waste all that render time in edit. it would be easier for us (adapter users) to be able to record the flipped image directly to hard drive during the shoot. it would be nice to have that option in a program like Dv Rack.

but having Dv Rack at least be able to flip the field monitor image would be nice though.

maybe someone out there will be able to write a HD recording program that can simply flip the image as it records. ;}

thanks, i like the program and will get it and the ultra program for my next project that needs it.

thanks, marc
www.zenimage.com

Rhett Allen January 28th, 2005 01:21 PM

I would think that since the Panasonic HDC27F can do it "in-camera" someone could write something to do it as you captured the footage to avoid re-rendering everything. Of course that ability may help explain some of the price of this camera and a stand alone program may not be cost effective to produce since there aren't that many people shooting DV with Ultra Primes.

Good question though.

Marc Sacco January 28th, 2005 01:36 PM

yes Rhett, good point! i hadnt thought about the "in camera" route! it would be nice to have that as a feature on many of the Dv cameras (i use the canon xl1s myself) we are working with so we could be more creative with many other shots as well. (for example, shooting into a mirror for safety or effect you could dial in a horizontal or vertical flip and get a corrected image without rendering it in post. or a difficult camera position that would be easier to acheive if the camera were say mounted upside down would benefit from an in camera flip as well.) so it would be utilized by more people than just the adapter folks using 35mm lenses and could be a nice feature to have. (maybe canon can add that to their menu for me? <g>)

Marc
www.zenimage.com

Rob Lohman January 30th, 2005 06:31 AM

Why would the footage need rendering *BEFORE* editing when
flipped? When you add footage to the timeline just flip it then.
You usually need rendering anyway (titles, effects, color correction,
letterboxing etc.) and a flip should barely add to the render time
(if you do it all in one go!)

Marc Sacco January 30th, 2005 09:02 AM

Rob,
efficiency is the name of the game! when you are editing a short or feature or other long form project it is nice to be able to edit the rough cut without having to render anything. (thats how i work at least. i like to slap a rough cut together to see how its working and whats missing first and then begin to fine tune it until i need to add effects and color modifications and audio sweetening, etc.) yes, later when you add effects, color correction, etc it needs to be rendered and does take time and should be done in as few passes a possible. but i dont want to have to view upside down footage to determine which scenes i want to rough cut and i dont want to lay down all of my takes, add an image flip,export them to a new file, and re import them into my project just for a rough cut. it is very inefficient! if i am shooting with a 35mm adaptor and can flip a switch in camera to correct my image then i can import it into my NLE as correct footage and begin immediate editing. (or better yet, if my DV Rack flipped it before storing it then i could just begin editing in my NLE!)

thats all i want...oh and world peace too! <g>

marc

Rob Lohman January 31st, 2005 03:56 AM

Thanks for the explenation Marc! Makes sense, but I guess that's
the price your gonna have to pay for using such a "device". No
way around it, yet.....

Hugh DiMauro January 31st, 2005 07:30 AM

DV Rack
 
Has anybody actually used this product and is it worth the money?

http://www.seriousmagic.com/dvrack.cfm

Rob Lohman January 31st, 2005 07:45 AM

Hugh: please do a search on "DV Rack" (see button in upper right
corner or link in my signature), it has been discussed often here
and lots of people are using it.

Thanks!

Hugh DiMauro January 31st, 2005 07:46 AM

Rob! The search told me there were no matches! Any other key words I can use? I even tried "Serious Magic DV Rack".

DUHHH! Sorry, I typed the request in the wrong place. I found it!

DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This is Ron Burghundy, Good Night, San Diego!

Ray Sigmond February 2nd, 2005 02:33 PM

Vegas 5 and DV Rack ... Anyone tried it yet?
 
Just curious if anyone has used DV Rack and then dropped the files in Vegas? And if so, how do you like using DV Rack with a notebook as opposed to a field monitor?

http://www.seriousmagic.com/dvrack.cfm

Danny Fye February 2nd, 2005 02:53 PM

DV Rack Rebate
 
I noticed that Serious Magic has a new $200.00 rebate for DV Rack until the end of February.

I wonder if those who took advantage of the last rebate have received their rebates yet?

Danny Fye

Tony Hall February 2nd, 2005 04:03 PM

Yup, got mine after about two months. I was just starting to sweat about it when it came in the mail. I ended up getting the program for 200 bucks after the rebate :)

Ed Frazier February 3rd, 2005 05:40 AM

I received mine too. Took a little longer than expected, but it finally arrived.

Ed

Rob Lohman February 3rd, 2005 06:14 AM

Please do a search on DV Rack here to see how people like it with
laptops, that's been discussed often already.

Since DV Rack produces standard DV (AVI/Quicktime) files you can
use them in Vegas (5) just fine!

Hart Boyd February 3rd, 2005 06:30 PM

Still waiting on my mine as it was verified on 12/21/2004 and I received an email stating so I don't know why it is taking so long.

Tim Polster February 4th, 2005 08:55 AM

DV Rack Preview Quality?
 
Hello,

I have downloaded the DV Rack trail version and will install soon.

I just wanted to ask for some opinions regarding the use of the laptop screen as a preview monitor.


How does everbody like this?


I just purchased a laptop with a brightview screen so I have high hopes.

If this feature is as stated, then I can eliminate carrying a monitor which would be nice.

Thanks

Tim Polster February 4th, 2005 09:01 AM

DV Rack or Canopus DV Capture?
 
Hello,

I am looking at the DV Rack but have some questions.

I use the DV Storm2 card and their Edius NLE from Canopus for my desktop computer.

This came with a little program called DV Capture.

It is a little utility that only captures dv footage from firewire or analog.

Canopus uses a proprietary .avi file format that is best if captured in that format.


Can the DV Rack capture in Canopus .avi format?


Thanks

Barry Green February 4th, 2005 09:42 AM

DV Rack's monitor feature works pretty well. The only thing to keep in mind is that it's not extremely high resolution; it resolves around 300 lines, so if you're expecting to use it for critical focus, it's not really the best for that job.

I've asked them for a full-resolution extraction option, where it'd take a 512x384 patch out of the 720x480 frame and map it directly to the DV Rack monitor, which would allow for precise focus. Hope they can implement something like that soon, as that's really my only complaint about an otherwise superb product.

Hugh DiMauro February 4th, 2005 10:06 AM

Unreal DV Rack Deal!
 
B & H has the DV Rack for $357.95 including S & H. Now, math wizards, with Serious Magic's $200.00 rebate, my cost is $157.95.

Okay? $157.95 for DV Rack at B & H with the rebate.

Not too shabby!

Karl Soule February 4th, 2005 12:31 PM

Hi Tim,

Yes - set the DV Rack recording format to "CANOPUS" and it will record to the Canopus file format.

Karl Soule February 4th, 2005 12:34 PM

Hi Hart,

Our rebates are handles by a rebate house in Florida that is used by Sony, Whirlpool, Pinnacle, Maytag, and other big-name companies. You should be able to go to www.rebateshq.com and see the current status of the rebate.

If you run into trouble, please let me know and I can look into it.

Tim Polster February 4th, 2005 02:01 PM

I have been using a 9" color monitor that is at 330 lines, so I might be in business.

Anybody else?

Thanks

Tim Polster February 4th, 2005 06:40 PM

Well I Tried the DV rack Demo...
 
My laptop is a P4 2.8g 512 ram and this video card - "Integrated Intel® graphics with 32MB UMA memory technology"

I have to say the video looks sort of webcam-ish.

Is this a function of my laptop specs?

The picture quality is fine, but there is a lag in the movement.

Plus it looks jittery when I pan.

The picture lag makes this product un-useable as a monitor replacement.

Thanks for any tips.

Danny Fye February 4th, 2005 11:59 PM

Re: Well I Tried the DV rack Demo...
 
<<<-- Originally posted by Tim Polster : My laptop is a P4 2.8g 512 ram and this video card - "Integrated Intel® graphics with 32MB UMA memory technology"-->>>

I'd say your video specs are at the minimum of what you would need. According to the FAQ for DV Rack, it says "32 MB AGP graphics card with 3D acceleration (64 MB recommended). "

So you are working within the minimum of the range and that is probably why you are having problems.

How much lag are you getting? I always get a little bit of lag and jerkiness with pans but not enough to bother me. There is also a slight delay in the audio. I use headphones right on the computer to make sure I have audio there, in spite of my poor hearing.

I also use a software called, "TrueRTA", http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm

It gives me an accurate indication of what my audio consists of even as it is from the DV capture and it can even do it with a 1/24 octive. The module included with DV Rack doesn't give an accurate display of the audio.

Since I no longer have DV Rack, I use the capture of Media Studio Pro 7.2 which gives me a nice-large display while capturing and doesn't require as much from the graphics card. You might want to consider going that route instead.

Sort of like a variation of what DV Rack can do plus you can use the 'switch' feature and go right ahead and edit and use the color balance to see what the vectorscope and waveform monitor would be showing.

Still not a DV Rack but one can easily see what is happening at the shoot and still avoid the disasters and do it all at a better price than DV Rack.

Hope this helps.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com

Danny Fye February 5th, 2005 12:44 AM

"Okay? $157.95 for DV Rack at B & H with the rebate."

Thanks much for the information. I might be able to get DV Rack again afterall.

I do wish they would fix the audio module. :) Nag, Nag, and Nag - Grin!

Even though I have a sort of 'makeshift' DV Rack by using Ulead's Media Studio Pro 7.2, it is still not quite the same.

In spite of the problem with the audio module, there are still the other features that seem to work well. I like using the vector and waveform scopes while shooting the video.

Danny Fye

Hart Boyd February 5th, 2005 10:13 AM

Karl,

www.rebateshq.com is where I am looking and have not seen any change in the status since I receive the initial email on 12/21/04.

Status Detail: Your rebate is valid and is in the final stages of processing. You should receive your rebate per the terms and conditions listed on the coupon.

I am getting to the point where if the rebate is not instant at checkout I will have to revaluate the purchase price as it getting to hard to receive the mail in rebates or takes a long time or something is wrong with the information provided. For example I purchased a Disney DVD with a $10 rebate and then I was told 6 weeks later they would not mail it to a PO Box and the deadline for resubmitting as expired. Another example is with Canon and the purchase of a digital camera and lenses. They were offering a triple the rebate offer with the purchase of three different lenses. To make the story short I was due $455 in rebates but only got $190 and when I called they finally agreed that I qualified for the $455 but had no clue how to correct it in their system and I would have to call back in about a week. This is taking too much of my time and will not allow mail in rebates to influence my purchase decisions in the future.

Sorry to vent but this is frustrating.

Rob Lohman February 6th, 2005 04:18 AM

Barry: how and why would it only resolve around 300 lines? I
assume it displays the full DV picture? That is 720x480 or 720x576,
no "analog" lines here! You get the full pixels of the signal. How
much you can see depends on your monitor attached (my laptop
has a TFT screen, so I see all the pixels, versus a CRT where you
might not) and whether DV rack shows all of the signal (which as
I understand it, it does).

I've used a similar method to DV Rack to watch and capture with
my XL1S in the past and it was far easier to focus on my laptop
screen (and more accurate) than with the viewfinder!

p.s. a zoomed in piece of a picture can help even futher indeed,
but that's always the case.

Gary Bettan February 6th, 2005 05:39 AM

DV Rack is one of our most popular add-ons for video editors. What you can accomplish with this software and a laptop is just amazing. It really can replace a whole car full of production monitoring gear. Add in the ability to record directly to the laptops drive, and it's easy to see why it is so popular.

Spot uses DV Rack & Vegas together all the time. I can't think of a better seal of approaval than that for Vegas users.

BTW - Serious Magic is running a $200 mail in rebate for DV Rwck in February ;-)

Gary
Videoguys.com

Barry Green February 6th, 2005 12:57 PM

That's not how it works. I've talked with the guys at Serious Magic about it, trying to get a solution (I spent 15 years as a professional computer programmer, so I have a fairly good idea of what's involved, and maybe a suggestion on how to get us what we want with minimal effort...)

The DV Rack monitor is a 512x384 window. It's not full resolution, obviously, as the DV frame is 720x480. They use 512x384 for a number of reasons, but the primary one is that the pixel array is half as much as it would need to be for 720x480. So the very first thing that happens is they downrez the frame from 720x480 down to 512x384 (and in the process, sacrifice some resolution, leaving about 300 lines). Then all color manipulations, zebras, aspect ratio conversion etc. are performed on that smaller frame size.

It makes sense, and it does perform well, but it doesn't give you full resolution. And, using the full-screen monitor doesn't give you full res either -- it's a magnification of the downrezzed 512x384 monitor. When you switch to full-screen you see a bigger picture, but it's not more detailed.

Shoot a resolution chart and you'll see what I mean.

I don't blame them for this, I think it's a fairly brilliant solution -- they're able to provide an exceptionally useful tool using today's technology. If they used the full 720x480 they wouldn't be able to do that yet. I don't think they'll be able to provide real-time performance on a full-resolution monitor until processor specs and memory transfer specs double in speed, which would give them the horsepower to do what they're doing on twice as much data (the full 720x480 frame).

What I've asked them for is a sort of compromise... I want the ability to use a raw-resolution extraction. Instead of going through the resize-from-720x480-down-to-512x384 path, I want the option to have them instead just extract the central 512x384 out of the middle of the full frame. After doing that, all other operations should be able to stay the same, but then we'd have 100% full raw resolution. It would be compromised in that a) we wouldn't be able to see the full frame, and b) the aspect ratio would be slightly "off", since DV doesn't use square pixels but laptops do... however, the benefit is enormous, we'd get full raw resolution and have the ultimate focus ability. And it should be even more responsive: a raw bit-block transfer of the central portion of the image has got to be a quicker operation than scaling 720x480 down to 512x384.

This is my #1 request for them to address -- it's really basically akin to the Enhanced Focus option on the Sony FX1/Z1 cameras, and Enhanced Focus is like my favorite feature of the Sony HDV cameras. I'd like the same capability from DV Rack. If you would too, write to them and request the feature! :)

Ryan Wachter February 7th, 2005 10:48 AM

Yea I saw that deal last thursday and ordered it. I away all weekend in MA shooting a dance performance. I just got the email saying it was in the mail so I came to post the deal to you guys....beat me to it :)

Ryan Wachter February 7th, 2005 10:52 AM

At what point does the video card speed stop helping with DV Rack...the prices from 32mb to 128mb are all only 10-20 buck jump so getting a 128mb is fine with me, is the extra 40 or so to get a 256mb worth it?


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