Does anybody LOVE Premiere 6.5?
 

Hey, all. I've read all the complaints/criticisms/problems about Premiere 6.5... it's normal that that's mainly what gets posted, but since I'm debating which top NLE software to buy, what I'm really wondering is this:

Does anybody really love Premiere 6.5?

I ask because I seem to see little but praise for Final Cut Pro, and lots of complaints about P6.5, yet I'm bound to a Win XP machine so I want to find the best option.

Also, which other top NLE software (that allows real-time preview and other speed-related plusses) for XP machines do folks love? (For sake of argument let's assume all prices were equal, since I'm purely interested in qualities, regardless of price. Thanks!)

Best
Glenn

Sonic Foundry Vegas Video. Pretty much everyone who gets seriously into it, loves it.

I'm not going to spend time to go into details, there's been plenty of other gushing topics about it already. Do some searches here, or just go to sonicfoundry.com and download the demo and try it out yourself.

What a number of users like is the Adobe Production Suite of Premiere, After Effects, and Photoshop. The plugins that are available also contribute to its popularity.

That aside, other prefer Avid, Canopus, and of course, Vegas Video.

As you have already noted VV (Vegas Video) get a lot of acclaim. It is a very good product with a number of excellent features, for half the cost of Premiere. AND if you can find someone with a student ID, VV is cheaper still!

Happy Holidays,

Well, if price isn't a problem then go with a "High End" system like FCP or Avid.

But that might be overkill for your needs. Ideally, you want to buy the most bang for your buck, with room to grow into what you think your future needs will be.

Plan on offlining a feature film?

Avid all the way. Cut it at home, take it into the Symphony suite and conform the negative. Or conform it at home with the powerpack. FCP just posted a patch that is supposed to help with its EDL's which were notoriously awkward and inaccurate.

Starting up a small production shop, doing a lot of inhouse stuff... FCP may be the ticket. Specially if you want to pay the extra bucks to edit uncompressed... Have to Go to XPress to do that.

Weddings, Events, Corporate? That seems to be a big choice for VV and Premiere. Much less expensive than either FCP or Avid, but you want to pay more to get the accelerated hardware for "real time" whatever that is these days...

People complain on these forums... here, on FCP and on Avids. They come looking for answers to logjams... many they have created themselves... (I know I am guilty). The people who don't have a problem are busy working - or posting on forums.

Of course, these are generalities, and all generalities are false...

Bill
(AvidXpressDV)

Good info from Bill.

I have both Premiere (and After Effects Production Bundle as well as Photoshop) and also Vegas Video.

My Adobe setup was kinda pricey... but the capabilities are beyond what I will ever be able to do with it.

Vegas Video is a killer program for the money... and the audio tools are very good.

I use them for different purposes, as each has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

As Nathan pointed out, Premiere has the benefit of "plug-ins out the kazoo", so if you're into a bevy of special effects... Premiere is a good choice.

For quick and simple editing, with a powerful toolset, Vegas Video is the hands down choice for me... and it's inexpensive. The more I learn about it, the more powerful I realize it is. Voiceovers are a snap, too.

I have yet to experience a freeze-up in Vegas, while Premiere has frozen several times. I guess the more complicated a program is... the more likely a crash can occur. Not the kind of crash that takes the whole system down... just the program.

If money isn't a big issue, I would recommend you get them both.

I agree with Doug Quance.

I use both and it depends on what your needs are.

Great! Thanks for all your insightful comments. I gather FCP still is Mac-only so that's out for me, but these are all helpful thoughts on VV, Premiere and Avid. Thanks!

Glenn

Uhhh...Avid DV Xpress is great BUT...it has a VERY steep learning curve...you might want to use Premiere or VV unless your going to be doing some film or really NEED to use it. As I understand...the ones who use it (DV Xpress) say they love it once they re-learn editing the "Avid" way.

Its easy to work between AE and Vegas using Quicktime. You can render out comps from AE into Quicktime animation or uncompressed and pull them directly into the timeline on Vegas.
No compression artifacts.... Vegas actually requres Quicktime in order to handle certain still image formats.

onerivermedia.com has some links to popluar quicktime codecs that are now available for the Windows version. worth checking out. One from blackriver is a 10bit, another from digitalanarchy offers a lossless compressed true 64bit codec designed specifically for AE.

With that, there is little reason not to use Vegas.

Yeah, Avid's gotta curve... I spent a week with an editor on an Avid at an editing house last year and got the basics down okay enough to put together a simple short (of course, he was a good teacher) but then more recently I got to watch one of my favorite film editors at the Avid and got totally intimidated!

Alas, I was wowed by the full Avid system but I don't think I need to sink a grand-plus in Avid DV Xpress now, even though I want serious capability. Thus I think I'll go for Premiere 6.5 now. Sounds more capable than VV, even though the latter sounds easier and more reliable.

Thanks yet again.
Glenn

I would suggest also that anyone looking for an NLE try the demos before they buy. I know Im in the minority here, but I like Premiere better than Vegas. I think that Premiere is easier to learn. But mny others think the opposite. So, try them and see what you are comfortable with.

I COMPLETELY agree~!

Smart.

Glenn

I absolutely agree that Avid has a steep learning curve.

I am old school film, and finally decided to learn NLE. The first course I took was in Premiere. (Keep in mind, that I learned most of my computer skills from my teen-aged son.) I finally got the basics of Premiere down. Then went shopping. I knew I was looking long term at feature film products... So I looked at Avid ANd FCP. Went to seminars and demos. Looked at Matrox/Premiere systems.. the whole gamut. It's definitley a good idea to give different products a hands on if you can.

I walked up to the owner of DVLine at one seminar, and asked him about Avid's learning curve. He kind of looked down at the ground then smiled sideways. "It's steep, REALLY steep. Especially if you are coming from premiere.... BUT WORTH IT."

I bought a turnkey system. Big investment. And was immediately swamped by my efforts to "Make it work like it does in Premiere." Sure I knew what I wanted to do... I just couldn't figure out why it didn't work the same way.

Then I began to understand that Avid works from a FILM paradigm. It treats the files as if they refference real film media. It is basically keeping track of what you want to do to THE NEGATIVE. Premiere is coming from a computer graphics paradigm. Files are just files. There are good and bad approaches to both... understanding the difference is key. Avid will give you five different ways to do something. And most of them are keyboard oriented. And Avid interfaces are VERY similar. If you master XpressDV, then you have a headstart sitting down at a Symphony or Media Pro Suite, looking at your high-end HiDef stuff.

A lot of the questions on the Avid forum are from people who begin with "In premiere... I can do this, how does it work in Avid?"

Avid is a big investment, and can be a handfull to learn. It's not for everybody. But anybody who is considerring feature work on a professional level, should give it a serious once-over.

Bill

One thing struck me when you said,"...I bought a turnkey system. Big investment. And was immediately swamped by my efforts..." that's why I suggest you try something like Premiere or VV. Time IS money if your doing this for food & shelter. And in these days of small profit margins and a uncertain economy you should make sure you can get up and running as quickly as possible. The best way to eat a elephant is one bite at a time.

I often fool around with DV express but it's not cost effective to try and make it my "main" system till I completely understand it and I can use it as quickly as I can Premiere. It's not fair to a client and it's not fair to myself to put that kind of pressure on me. Sure, I want to learn it but I know whats in store for me when I click on the icon.

I've been doing this a long time but Avid's thinking is completely different and sometimes I feel there's just no room left in my brain after messing with it. It's a LOT to know and although it can do a lot of things I want to offer a client, sometimes you just have to back up and ask yourself...is the high worth the hassle. So far, for me, it isn't, but I KNOW it will be...even the books are confusing and not very complete so I keep plugging away at it in my "spare time" hoping to one day "see the light".

As I understand it....there comes a time when something goes "click" and it makes complete sense...I unfortunately haven't gotten to that point yet.

Steve,

What's the old saying, "You either have time, or money, but never both at the same time?"

I am in an extremely fortunate moment now, to have both. Hence the choice of Avid. But like I said, it's not for everyone. It's a HUGE step up from premiere or VV, but a quick step over if you've been using a Symphony or Express.

I have some short films in the can, and some small projects that are not time driven. (Unlike my screenwriting assignments.) So I have the luxury to "play" even if it is a bit like taking a fork to an elephant!

Regards,

Bill

I've never understood what makes Avid so great
 

Does Avid XPress DV have any additional functionality over Vegas Video, or is it just "more professional" by virtue of being more difficult to learn and more expensive? Can anyone in these forums justify the cost of the Avid software?

Any idea how well Avid works on a regular PC system, top-end but not designed for editing? Got the great media drive and fast Dell setup, just need to choose a capture card. Wondering how well it'd work. Since I do have some Avid experience and do have the temporary luxury of time and money, all I'm concerned about is performance.

Thanks for your analysis -- most insightful description of the Avid / Premiere difference.

Glenn

"Additional functionallity"

Interesting phrase. Not sure what it means. You mean more features? I am not that familiar with VV. I suppose you could look up the comparisons in the magazines. A lot of what Avid has, is important when you are editing feature films, and planning on offlining or transfering to the high end suites.

The actual workflow is different, how things work is different from VV and PRemiere.

Does VV output OMFI files? How about matchframe edl's for film?

Avid's version of REALTIME monitoring is closer and smoother than VV's, (Though one can argue about what REALTIME is nowadays. REalitme preview versus realtime output.)

I know DVLine sells a VV system with accelerators for VV that puts it up there with Premiere.

You don't use a "capture card" with Avid. Just a firewire card. If you have analogue footage, use a transcoder like the dac 2 or canopus advc100.


As far as how well it works on a top end system "Not designed for editing"... WHat does that mean? If you've got a great media drive and a fast Dell setup, and WInXP pro, then it's ready to go. Install it.

If you're happy with V V, then Great! Or go with FCP or PRemiere. It's a bit like choosing Mac or PC. Some people are more comfortable with a particular paradigm, because that's the one they started with. If the situation calls for a change of paradigm or work flow, then its always a bit of an adjustment... "Learning Curve."

Justify the cost of ANY software. It's worth what people are willing to pay for it. (Or they steal and hack it) It's more "professional" because it is part of a system that is still the standard for Broadcast and feature film making. (Most TV and Movies are cut on AVID) The interface is very similar. Skills translate readily across the AVID platforms.

But if you don't need it, or even want it, DON'T BUY IT.

I don't mean to be impertinent, but, I still have the question. Why buy Avid? What can you do with Avid that you can't do with VV?

What are OMFI files? Are matchframe edls just edls that account for 3:2 pulldown?

You don't need more than an OHCI card for VV. (Do you?)

If you aren't editing for film, why go with Avid XPress?

Thanks again. Just wasn't sure what the difference was (if any) between a regular ol' powerful new computer and a "workstation" -- which is what Avid refers to in their website's Xpress 3.5 hardware compatability page. But I got your clarification, Bill.

Best, Glenn

BTW - Folks may already know this, but I see Avid is offering a big discount ($500) off Xpress 3.5, to users of other major NLE's, thru and of this month. [Looks like all of them except VV, but maybe I missed it.] Makes it same price as FCP, I think.

-Glenn

I was trying to stay out of this part but...Avid can do some things so easily compared to Premiere that the price makes it worth buying. I guess what I'm trying to say is it has "features" that are not in Premiere or VV that make it worth learning. It's kinda hard for ME to explain, you need experience to know the difference and know why it's worth it.

Bill Angstrom I'm sure will explain this better but yes....it does have "Additional functionallity" that makes it easier to use once you learn the system. That's why I keep trying to learn it...I can do so many things so easily in Avid that I can't do in Premiere or VV that it's worth it to learn it.

I don't know or care about the film part...

It's 8:30 am and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not thinking to clearly...but...let me try saying it this way...the more you know about editing...the more you NEED to know Avid.

Something like that...I dunno....I'll try again later...time for breakfast!

All NLE's are "the same" in as much as they are designed to assemble footage. iMovie can make a cut and a dissolve, and lay on some titles. So it's just as good as anything else right?

I can't really tell you what the difference is between features in VV and Avid, since I am unfamiliar with VV. I guess I could ask some questions though.

Does VV allow LAN sharing of media files so that more than one editor can work on a project at the same time? (This is a "professional" situation)

Can VV do digital cuts?

Does VV have audio scrub at high speeds?

Does VV have three-way professional color correction tools with vectorscope? (No, FCP doesn't have this.)

I read in Videomaker Magazine, that VV's "realtime preview" is about 12 frames per second. Kind of slow compared to Avids, which is... well 30 fps. (WARNING "realtime" has specific connotations to different manufacturers. Basically though, can you layer on a couple of transitions and see them immediately at speed without rendering. I am prety sure if you match up VV with an accelerator, it will do better than that. But of course, then you are turning it into a more expensive system.)

OMFI files are the way Avid stores it's media. These are the files that the high end professional Avid suites read.
Imagine shooting a highdef project. Offline it in Avid at home. Then take the omfi files with edl to the main suite and voila... you've saved big bucks.

Film Matchback keeps accurate track of film edge numbering of the negatives, warns you when you've duplicated footage, allows for accurate conforming of the negative by the cutter. This can be configured for 35mm 16mm and various perforation formats. Again, this is an application that those in film are more likely to find usefull. That's why its part of the "powerpack" option.

Does VV allow you to import your script text, and mark dialogue as you position playable clips frames next to the text? (really great storyboarding tool).

I need my coffee now. So I'll keep it short. A lot of the features are "high end" that you probably don't need. If you don't need them, don't buy them. That would be overkill.

I guess I still need more coffee...but....here's a example that made me want to use Avid. I wanted a picture in picture with a soft colored transparent border and wanted it expand on the screen and then move from one corner to another. With Avid...it is SO very simple...I couldn't do that with anything else that easily and quickly. Sure...you CAN do it in other programs...but not as quickly or easily.

The other thing was the vectorscope and color correction...all SO very easy to use and apply.

Bill Angstrom is more versed in the "technical" end of Avid but...I'm more interested in the "practical" uses in everyday editing.

If it does what you need when you need it and saves you time...well....that kinda explains my position. I just want to get it done with as little time involved without sacrificing ANY quality.

Again, the only problem is...you have to learn the Avid way and I'm just so fast in Premiere and know it so well....I haven't made the change...yet.

I can tell I'm going to need a lot more coffee!

At the very least having the ability to edit on an AVid is a skill set. Spend the $500, $600 to become certified and you can find a job as an editor almost anywhere in the country. You'll have a job, benefits and security. I don't know of any major post house, production company, corporation etc that uses Vegas Video. It is used by prosumer, industrial video type organizations. Mom and Pop operations if you will. This isn't meant to take anything away from them. It's just how the market is divided up.

The smaller organizations need more bang (features, effects) for their buck and for their clients. VV fills that need. Avid has a lock on the high end market and VV has a hard time cracking in to it. Why swim upstream. Fill the need in the marketplace and sell lots more units.

Avid has the lions share of the high end market. Why? They were their first. They saw the need and they filled it. Final Cut Pro is challenging them on some fronts but is not supplanting Avid in the big studios. Why? Avids ability to handle media across different platforms.

Open Media Framework (OMF) allows Avid media files to move seamlessly across networks to high end workstations for use by colorists, and effects people. The media can be stored on servers and accessed by different workstations as needed. It will generate a list (EDL) to be used to cut the film or be imported into high end linear editors.

The advantage to the post houses and corporate users is that they can cut a project (offline) on DV Xpress and move seamlessly to online it in another room. You can have a handful of DV Xpress' and one or two Symphonies and your set.

Jeff

Another difference between Avid and VV: Avid XPress DV won't run on Windows 2000?

Yes, it requires XP or OS X to the best of my knowledge.

Jeff

Right Avid XpressDV 3.53 runs on XPpro. Version 3.0 runs on Win2k. You can still get 3.0 and many people are happy with it. (It does not have the new color correction suite however)

And, I suspect, as NLE's keep advancing, more of them will be limited to the newer operating systems. Your needs as an editor will determine whether you need to move with them. If what you currently are using is meeting your needs, then I guess you can just keep using it!
One other thing I will say about Avid (and FCP) that goes along with what Jeff D. said, is that if you are going to school for editing, these are the 2 systems that you will learn. If you say VV to them, they will answer "Huh?". That's not a put down, that's just where the business is. I have students that have taken my high school video class and have moved on to college or film and TV schools and those are the systems they are learning. The jobs are in Avid, and to a slightly lesser degree FCP. That's why I recently spent my own money to buy a Mac so that my students will have access to FCP. And why I am busy learning both XPress DV and FCP myself:)

why buy Avid?
 

Hi,

I've used Premiere for to many years (most recently with a DVStorm card), as well as bouts with SpeedRazor. I tried the 30 day demo of Vegas, and have spent enough time on Edition DV.

Why Avid Xpress DV? For DV25 res work, it's as stable and solid cutter as they come. It's built upon 11 or 13 years of code. It's editing and trim tools are top notch and precise. It's media management is robust and makes dealing with huge amount of material a breeze (the best project I did on XDV had 36 source tapes). Going to online Avids for finishing is simple as opening the project up and redigitizing. Take audio to a ProTools Neuendo station for audio work is a simple export as .omf. Most of it's area's of weakness are made up for by 3rd party plugins (compositing and titler). I've cut 33% off of my time on my bread and butter clients.

Yes it has faults - name something that doesn't (anything!). Is this stuff important for the casual user or hobbiest? No, but if you make a living editing, then these are some seious considerations. I've done a couple onlines on MC's due to my learning XDV. Nice skillset to have.

What else?

I guess to bring this full circle, I've tried several realtime cards over the past couple of months, and always felt less than satisfied. The problem really isn't the cards so much, although they all carry varying amounts of problems to offset their capabilities. The largest liability, however, is that I really DON'T like Premiere. I just wish the only real alternative didn't cost $1200, and could work with something other than 2 GB OMF. There's nothing quite like being smacked with the cold splash of reality when, after sitting through an import on a 2.1 GB AVI file, the error message that pops up points its finger at QT import.

Everything sucks. Nobody "loves" Premiere, but it gets the job done. Other tools do, too.

"I read in Videomaker Magazine, that VV's "realtime preview" is about 12 frames per second. Kind of slow compared to Avids, which is... well 30 fps. (WARNING "realtime" has specific connotations to different manufacturers. Basically though, can you layer on a couple of transitions and see them immediately at speed without rendering. I am prety sure if you match up VV with an accelerator, it will do better than that. But of course, then you are turning it into a more expensive system.)"


Actually, VV's "realtime preview" is ------ 29.97 fps! On any reasonably fast computer, VV can display a couple of transitions and preview them in real time - not only on the computer screen but ALSO on an external monitor via firewire (something I've read that Avid DOESN'T do). You cannot match VV with an accelerator - it is a software only solution.

Huh, Guess the Magazine review was wrong about VV then.
I have an NTSC monitor hooked up, and watch my footage on that. AVID has a "green dot" preview mode that allows you to watch the real time previews on your computer monitor. (About a hundred effects I think) NTSC monitor can come off a dual head card or via a transcoder.

<<<-- Originally posted by BillAngstrom : Huh, Guess the Magazine review was wrong about VV then.
I have an NTSC monitor hooked up, and watch my footage on that. AVID has a "green dot" preview mode that allows you to watch the real time previews on your computer monitor. (About a hundred effects I think) NTSC monitor can come off a dual head card or via a transcoder. -->>>

Yes, Vegas will preview on an external monitor via firewire. It will preview ALL effects and will simply lower the framerate when the CPU cannot keep up with the quantity of effects added. However, at the speed of today's computers, general editing should not slow it down below 29.97 very often - all fades and dissolves should remain at 29.97 but if you have several compositing tracks it will reduce the framerate.

Edward,

Thanks for the VV explanaition.

As I said in my original response.. "Real time" means different things to different systems. They all have different work-arounds. With a paraheillia card, you can run two editing monitors AND real time client monitor at speed with avid. The client monitor is single -field however. But it doesn't 'slow down"

Always a trade-off somewhere, unless you bite the bullet and buy the high-end AVID systems. The advantages to software only systems like Avid, FCP and VV is that they get faster if you upgrade the cpu.

I understand that Premiere 6.5 is now more "like" a software only system, but really runs best with an accellerator card? (I learned premiere when it was 5.1)

Happy holidays.

Bill

<<<-- Originally posted by BillAngstrom : Edward,

I understand that Premiere 6.5 is now more "like" a software only system, but really runs best with an accellerator card? (I learned premiere when it was 5.1)
Bill -->>>

Was that a question? Yes; realtime P6.5 runs at least as well as Vegas or Avid Xpress. It really romps with a good accelerator.

Bill,

When you say the NTSC monitor can connect to a dualhead
card. How does this work? In my understanding of dualhead
cards you have the second output running at 1024x768 and
indicate that it has a TV attached. Doesn't this mean that it
will reduce that 1024x768 to 720x480 (for NTSC) which might
mean a color/quality loss? (just wondering)

Will this still be a good setup to use for a broadcast monitor
to judge the image?