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-   -   Is Premiere really THAT bad? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-creative-suite/65190-premiere-really-bad.html)

Ash Greyson April 16th, 2006 02:21 AM

Is Premiere really THAT bad?
 
I am a long time Premiere user, yes, even from vesion 1.0 but WOW... I am coming off about a year of working with FCP and diving into a Premiere Pro 1.5 project. Is it true that even if you shoot in 24P normal with 2:3 in camera pulldown that Premiere will do the pulldown to 23.976 anyway? I cant seem to find a way around it and the help forums are FULL of people with issues. The entire point is that I dont WANT to work in a 24P timeline and I SURELY dont want to pulldown from a 2:3 source, that will never look very good.

If this is indeed true, I wont be solving it by upgrading to 2.0, I will be moving to Vegas and doing more work with FCP. I cannot for the LIFE of me understand how this has not been solved in 18 months of complaining, it is a fairly large issue effecting MOST users... PLEASE tell me I am mistaken!



ash =o)

Ron Evans April 16th, 2006 07:56 PM

I hate to tell you this but MOST users do not shoot 24p.

Ron Evans

Pete Bauer April 16th, 2006 08:37 PM

Ash, AFAIK, it is still true in PPro2 that 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 sources will automatically be displayed in a 24fps timeline -- so they behave on the timeline as progressive footage (even though the source file is not affected).

I know people gripe about this but I personally haven't found it to be a problem; if I were to need a 2:3 final product for some reason I would just render/export it that way to a 29.97 file, while having reaped the advantages of working in a progressive 24fps timeline. I normally go to 23.976 so don't typically do that...what am I missing that makes a 24fps timeline display a problem for 2:3 material? To me, it is an advantage not to deal with interlaced video on the timeline.

Ash Greyson April 17th, 2006 12:26 PM

Here is the problem... 24P shot with 2:3 pulldown is not 24P... it is 29.97 with the 24P look. When you edit it in 24P you are adding the interlaced frames recorded by the camera to make it 29.97 to your 24 "progressive" frames. You then edit in 24P and have to go back to 29.97 for delivery and that is what is causing all the issues. 24P with 2:3 pulldown is meant to be edited in a 29.97 timeline.

WOW... Premiere is the ONLY editor in the world that cant handle 24P with 2:3 pulldown... even Windows Movie Maker and iMovie can do it...



ash =o)

David Jimerson April 17th, 2006 01:07 PM

No, that's just wrong.

24p shot with 2:3 pulldown is every bit as much 24p as that shot with 2:3:3:2 pulldown; the only difference is how the frames are split up to record in a 60i stream.

Premiere Pro 2.0 has no problem detecting and removing the 2:3 pulldown from the footage, and then you're editing in native 24p. I've tested this extensively, and it works just fine -- in fact, it works very similarly to Vegas, which has the best 24p integration of any NLE.

If you don't WANT to edit in 24p, then choose a 29.97 timeline. But it looking bad when you remove pulldown? Nonsense.

Ash Greyson April 17th, 2006 02:56 PM

OK, how do you do it then... I want to edit 29.97 footage shot by an XL2 in 24P mode with 2:3 pulldown. I do NOT want to extract 24 frames, I want to edit it native 29.97 because with 2:3 and not 2:3:3:2 pulldown it is NOT 24P it is 24P pulled up to 60i.

In PP 1.5 you cant seem to edit 2:3 footage in a 29.97 timeline as it will interpret the 29.97 footage with 2:3 pulldown, as footage with 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Therefore, even native clips must be rendered. Nonsense? Check the Adobe user forums for the 18 month threads about these issues.

Your statement about 24P is actually incorrect. Pulldown from 2:3 footage is DIFFERENT than pulldown from 2:3:3:2 footage. You simple cannot extract the TRUE 24 frames from 2:3 footage, the "C" frame is actually regenerated. This is what is causing all the issues with Premiere that are void in every other program...



ash =o)

David Jimerson April 17th, 2006 03:10 PM

Can't speak to PP 1.5. I do know that 2.0 leaves pulldown of both kinds in place when editing on a 29.97 timeline, and you're editing with 29.97 files in that case.

Vegas will do the same.

As for the "true 24p," you're arguing semantics. Of course the pulldown schemes are different -- one's 2:3, the other is 2:3:3:2. There's an extra step involved in removing 2:3 pulldown, but it was 24p before the pulldown was added for recording to tape, and it's 24p after the pulldown is removed.

The "nonsense" part is where it looks bad after removing the pulldown. Granted, I've never seen your footage and I have no idea what Cinema Tools does to it in FCP. But in Vegas, and with what I've done in PP 2.0, it looks just fine, indistinguishable from 2:3:3:2.

There's enough confusion out there about the different pulldown schemes without adding more, and saying 2:3 pulldown isn't really 24p just isn't true.

Ash Greyson April 17th, 2006 04:41 PM

Let me clarify again. In Premiere 1.5 if you capture video at 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown, it will interpret it as 2:3:3:2 pulldown true 24P. This is a HUGE problem for many. Like I said, check the Adobe forums.

You absolutely CANNOT extract the true 24 frames from 2:3 because the "c" frame no longer natively exists. It must be regenerated, this can be a problem for many, if not most.

Adam Wilt explains the difference and the potential issues on his site.


ash =o)

David Jimerson April 17th, 2006 07:13 PM

Weren't you asking about the difference between 1.5 and 2.0? It's not a problem in 2.0.

Yes, there's an extra step in the C frame. No, it's not a problem if you're using an NLE which can remove it efficiently, like Vegas. I've watched hundreds of hours of 24p of both pulldown stripes, and it has never, not once, been any kind of problem. A generation's worth of difference on a single frame -- especially at DV resolution -- is nothing.

John Hudson April 17th, 2006 07:36 PM

If you are going to continue shooting 24p, save yourself some headache Ash: Get Vegas.

You will not experience any issues with it.

-

Can't help you with the XL2 problem though. :O :) ;)

Ash Greyson April 17th, 2006 08:47 PM

I do have Vegas, just not as familiar with it. Again, it is a problem, Premiere Pro 1.5 simply cannot handle 2:3 files in any real useable way... It just baffles me, I mean friggin Windows movie make can do it!


ash =o)

Graham Hickling April 17th, 2006 09:06 PM

Doesn't David's statement indicate that your concern is addressed in PPro 2.0?

"I do know that 2.0 leaves pulldown of both kinds in place when editing on a 29.97 timeline"

If so, there is no point in continuing to gripe about 1.5....

Ash Greyson April 17th, 2006 10:27 PM

I am not about to spend the money to upgrade, this should have been supported, as every other NLE on planet earth supports it. Also, there is some debate on whether PPro 2 actually fixes the issue. Like I said, hop on over to the Adobe forums. Here is the "C" frame rebuild from trying to extract 24 frames from a 2:3 29.97 stream. MOST users are experiencing this FYI...

http://www.members.aol.com/ashvid/Cframe.jpg


ash =o)

Roger Averdahl April 18th, 2006 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
I am not about to spend the money to upgrade, this should have been supported, as every other NLE on planet earth supports it. Also, there is some debate on whether PPro 2 actually fixes the issue.

So, download a trial version of Premiere Pro 2.0 and check it out: http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/main.html

That must be the easiest way to find out if PPro 2.0 can handle 24P ot not.

/Roger

Aanarav Sareen April 18th, 2006 07:42 AM

This IS a problem in 1.5, but not in version 2.0


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