Recording into Laptop
 

Hello!

I am starting to buy gear for my next movie short and I am looking for a USB/Firewire interface so I can record the audio on my laptop.

I am considering the Mackie Onyx Satelite: http://www.mackie.com/products/satellite/index.html

- It is only $180 at B&H. Is the sound quality very good?
- It seems that most interfaces use balanced TRS for to record line-level signals. Will this be ok for taking the line signal from my SD 302? I know it will work, but I don't know much about the mechanics of TRS vs XLR. Since they are both balanced, it would seem that the only difference between the two would be the physical connectors. Is this true?
- Are the TRS jacks stereo or mono? Not that it really matters for location sound, I would just need to know which kind of XLR to TRS cable to get.
- It says that the pod can be powered by firewire. Does it have to be six-pin firewire? Are there any other ways to power the pod aside from placing it in the docking station?

If the Satellite isn't a good option for location recording, would you mind recommending a few good options? It needs to output 24 bit/96kHz via usb or firewire and needs to have balanced line-level input. I would prefer something under $600, but if that is to low for a good recording interface, just tell me.

Just curious - why are you recording sound seperately to a laptop instead of to the camera, or a DAT?

I can think of many reasons for using a laptop for recording, for example, one of the things I love about Boom Recorder is the detailed sound reports and the ability to customize how files are named which helps me out in post. For documentary and ENG shooting it makes sense to record sound on the camera, time, attention, and bodies are at a premium, but for more elaborate feature shooting, live events, multi-track recording beyond the two channel recording of a camera, etc. good old double system sound enters the picture with many advantages. Imagine getting a set of files and sound reports with all the information you need in terms of timecode, slate, scene, take, roll number, person speaking, etc.

I'm recording to laptop because it is better quality than to camera - 24-bit 96mHz instead of 16-bit 48mHz (which is what camera audio would be). Also, from what I read, the camera pre-amps tend to be noisier than those of a dedicated audio recording system. What I'm hoping is that, by sacrificing the mobility of a flash- or drive-based self-contained recording system and recording to laptop, I can get sound quality that will match or come close to that of a $2k+ system only for a lot less.

Dude,

24-bit 48 is fine.

Ty Ford

Ty is right (he's the audio expert), 24-bit @ 48KHz is fine, but in a pinch, 16-bit @ 48KHz is acceptable for dialog. It's practically universal since that's what many digital video cameras record.

If the only reason to record on a laptop is to get 24-bit @ 96KHz then I would say, do you really need it? Why go through all that trouble? For dialog (if that's what you're recording) camera audio (16-bit @ 48KHz in the case of the DV and DVCPRO HD formats) is just fine. I would certainly avoid the alternative DV format of 12-bit @ 32KHz.

Yes, TRS can be used interchangably with XLR. Physically they're both 3-conductor and can be wired for a balanced signal.

XLR is used in the field more often because it locks. Manufacturers like TRS because you can pack more of them on a panel.

So, yes, buy or make some XLR-F to TRS-M cables and you're physically ready to go from your 302 into the interface.

TRS stereo or mono? It depends. The TRS connector can be used for either. If TRS is being used on a mono input channel then it's likely balanced mono.

While true, it really depends on the camera. For example, the Panasonic DVX100 (and the HVX200 for that matter) have surprisingly good pre-amps for prosumer cameras). Now what I do most of the time is go into the camera with LINE level from my Sound Devices 302 mixer, so the microphone pre-amps in the camera are not an issue. Good mixers have better limiters than cameras do.

With a good audio interface and a laptop, yes, you can put together quite a good recording set-up, but is the additional quality worth the loss of mobility? I do laptop recording when I can (I love the sound reports) but most of the time, portability is more important than anything else, and thus I record sound on the camera.

Yes, quality is more important than portability. First off, I'm using an XL2, not a DVX100 or DVX200, and I have read complaints about hiss in the XLR jacks. Not to mention it records mic level only through its XLR jacks. Second, although the instigating project for this is a movie short, that will not be the only use of my audio setup by any means. I produce promotional videos, and I need the higher sound quality to lend production value to my project and to save me time (and sometimes headache) trying to clean up a hiss filled audio track. Third, I'm a purist and somewhat of a perfectionist, so I am always gung-ho for better quality even when it might not needed or even readily apparent.

So, with all due respect, my mind is made up - has been for a while. The question at hand is this: would you guys recommend a usb or firewire interface that sounds good but is cost effective enough to justify purchasing it instead of a stand-alone digital audio recorder?

Thanks!

My general experience has been that FireWire audio interfaces work better, and specifically I recently had a chance to use a MOTU Ultralite, a 24-bit, 96kHz FireWire interface, very nice. It was loaned to me by a friend who's a composer and does a good bit of recording too. The Ultralite sports eight analog inputs, two are microphone inputs with 48V phantom power and preamps, and the rest are balanced line-level 1/4" TRS (which saves space on such a small interface). It's also got S/PDIF digital I/O.

By the way, Firewire is a much better interface for audio than USB: USB is an asynchronous interface, while Firewire has two modes, asynchronous or isochronous. What this means in practical termis is that Firewire devices can count on a dedicated amount of bandwidth, and therefore audio travels without interruption. Your better audio interfaces use Firewire for this reason.

Thanks a lot, David. I had suspicions that firewire would be better, I just didn't know specifics. Thank you for the info! The UltraLite seems like an excellent unit. I am wondering, though, if I would be paying for a bunch of I/O that I don't need or for superior quality with that unit. Since it is for location dialog, I really only need one or two line-level inputs.

Nobody does dialog at 96k. Editor won't like it.
RME fireface is pretty good if you are going the laptop method.
Really should consider a mixer with extra outputs to run to camera as backup. Laptop not reliable for production sound.

You might want to check with Take Vos in The Netherlands. His Boom Recorder software for Macs has been adopted by some location sound people.

www.vosgames.nl.


Regards,

Ty Ford

First of all, I AM the editor, so I will like it. :) And why isn't dialog done at 96k? If I don't record at 96k but do record other sound (such as the music track) in 96k, won't Premiere have to resample the rates that aren't the same as the project rate? And if so, won't that introduce artifacts or distortion?

Second, I am using a mixer - I already said I'd be taking the line out from my SD 302. I will be sending two channels to the firewire interface to be recorded as separate mono channels with the volume one set a little higher than the other. I will be sending the RN out to the camera for scratch track and backup.

Third, although a laptop can't be quite as reliable as a dedicated recorder due to the possibility of it locking up etc, as long as you are careful of your connections, I don't see why it couldn't be reasonably reliable as long as the laptop/interface assembly is stationary during recording.

a laptop can be rock solid as long it is a dedicated machine.
no antivirus starting a disk scan in a middle of a 8 track recording.
no wireless card looking for network
no screensaver trying to download new pictures
no windows update trying to call home.
most of services disabled, you can get a fast PC even with a P3 and slow hard disk, able to cope with 8 track a 48Khz from firewire. (mine has the HDD led blinking only every 2 or 3 sec., so the disk seems not too busy...).
I use an Alesis multimix 12 firewire and a 15$ firewire pcmcia card on an old Dell latitude.

If you're using a Mac OS X laptop, you'll find that you'll get rock solid audio recording over FireWire or the built-in line-level input, even with the network active and stuff going on with the machine (not that it is not a good idea to stack the cards in your favor by using it in a dedicated mode for recording). But, I've done tests using Boom Recorder and checking my email and using my web browser while recording and it continued to record without missing a beat. In fact I'm doing it right now :-)

Thanks, David, but I'm actually using a Dell Inspiron.

So, does anyone have any other suggestions for firewire interface? So far, I think I'll go with the MOTU UltraLite.

Any comments on the quality of the mic amps on the MOTU box?

I have a 302 that would let me bring 2 mics in via the 302 mic to Line level and 2 additional via the MOTU box to get 4 independent mic tracks. Just wondering how the quality of the MOTU amps would compare to the SD amps.

If you actually get the MOTU unit let us know how you like it.

I will certainly do that, Jim. All the review I read of the MOTU highly praised the MIC preamps, but that doesn't really say how they compare to those of the 302.

The XL2 is pretty good for audio if you use the bottom two RCA inputs which are line level. They physically bypass the pre amps and I have been getting very good results peaking at -2dbfs on the built in meters. This is post limiter which I have engaged on the field mixer.

It is 16bit 48 khz so maybe use it that way for your back up guide track. Forget the xlr's, they are good only for mic level I think because they physically rought through the pre amps even if set to line level.

Incidently that seems to be a real problem with the prosumer gear. That turned out to be my issue with the Sony HDV1.

If you have good quality preamps and good level acheived on tape then 16bit 48 can be more than enough for most things although 24bit will give you much more lee way and is as mentioned before highly preferable although not as important as your recording technique. You may find that too much attention to detail might cause you to take your eye off the bigger picture though, which is mic placement, speed, simplicity etc..

Good luck though. I think the MOTU stuff is great and definately firewire. I tape the connector to the laptop on crucial recordings and run a minidisc as back up. Particularly in the windows world I have seen pc's just die for nothing. I think they feel stress!
cheers

Excellent suggestion, with cheap compact flash recorders and mini disc recorders, it's never been easier to record back-ups.

Dale, since you're using a Sound Devices 302, it's easy to record a back-up, what I do with my 302 is I run the XLR main outs to the camera (or recorder, or FireWire interface, or whatever) and I run the unbalanced line-out to a small compact flash recorder which you can Velcro right to the mixer. This is a good way of running a back-up recording. The 302's line-out uses a mini-XLR (TA3) connector, if you're handy with soldering (or know someone who is), you can make your own cables, I've made three for various uses: (1) TA3 (female) to L & R RCA males for running the 302 mix out into line-in jacks; (2) TA3 (female) to mini-jack stereo running into small recorders or the MacBook Pro line in; (3) TA3 (female) to mini-jack stereo with an attenuation circuit with plug-in power filter (I found the circuit description online) for running into mic inputs in a pinch. Between this and the standard XLR balanced line outs I've been able to connect the 302 to everything I've come across.

Actually, B&H has a TA3 to 3.5mm female cable. I am planning on using that to connect to my backup.

If you can carry a laptop into the field, why not consider the excellent Sound Devices digital recorders? They are smaller and lighter than a laptop, and definitely more rugged than a laptop, and the battery power seems to last forever :-). I have a SD 722 recorder - and I am very happy with the performance.

I have no doubt the Sound Devices recorders are wonderful, I don't own one but have been lucky enough to tool around with them. I really appreciate their rock solid reliability.

But after using Boom Recorder for a while, the laptop offers some things that portable recorders don't, things I really like, namely the ability to (1) choose the file naming scheme, (2) record tracks to both single files and a composite file (e.g. track1, track2, track1&2), (3) record details notes that are directly tied to the recordings, (4) produce detailed sound reports.

Boom Recorder running on a MacBook Pro is so robust I've been able to check email while recording (not recommended for many reasons, but I did it just to demonstrate how robust the recorder was, the new MacBook Pro is not like older, slower laptops, it can do more than one thing at a time).

The Sound Devices recorders are great, but they are in a strange middle ground. Lighter yet less versatile than a laptop, and heavier than the new generation of small digital recorders. That's not a fair comparison, though, you can't compare the reliability, speaking as a owner of a dead M-Audio Microtrack 2496 thinking about what I'll replace it with. In the meantime, the situation introduced me to Boom Recorder. I'm glad I've gotten to know it.

Are there any good recorders for the PC similar to the Boom Recorder? Also, what equipment do you use to input the XLRs/mics into the laptop? What are the options there? I know about the Sound Devices USB Pre which is attractive in so far as it's bus powered, which I think would be a big deal when looking for a portable recording solution. This said, a four channel input device would be far more attractive to me, depending on its battery life (if even available as an option).

I'm going to run some tests tonight with my laptop. It's a Dell Inspiron 1150, and I'm using an M-Audio USB Fast-Track Pro w/ Sony Sound Forge 9.0c

I've been interested in doing this for a while actually.

It's USB-Powered, I haven't purchased an AC adapter for it yet (it's an optional add-on).

Not sure if this has any affect whatsoever on the sound quality. I wouldn't think so. It still seems to supply enough phantom power also.

Actually, 1, 2, and 3 are things Zaxcom's Deva IV, V, 5.8 (and eventually Deva 16) can do. However, I think all of us Deva owners REALLY want #4.

Wayne

I don't know, I have neither the patience nor the time to deal with Windows.
Personally I'm using a Sound Devices 302 Mixer and running the LINE OUT of the 302 into the LINE IN of my MacBook Pro. The line in of the mac is a tiny bit noisy, but it's not terrible. A real Firewire audio interface would offer a quieter input for more demanding applications.
I've used the MOTU Ultralite FireWire interface which works great and is very quiet, however, for my application, and to carry the least amount of gear, I'm happy with the 302 mixer line out into the Mac line in solution. This gives me three channels mixed to two (and in a pinch the Sound Devices 302 gives you two additional line inputs if you're willing to give up the audio return jack).

BoomReccorder is very cool.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I have the Mackie Onyx...
 

It works well with a macintosh. The pre-amps are reasonable considering the low cost of the unit. It's firewire bus powered. When it is docked in the base station it has a bunch of ins and outs.

I have one hooked up to my G5 tower and use it as my every day audio interface. It has basically been hooked up and powered on for the last year with no burps.

SD 722 versus Laptop
 

Hi David,

On one side, you've fallen in love with Boom Recorder while on the other you're quite passionate about audio quality (SD 302 vs XL-2 pre-amp). My sense is the signal/noise ratio on the XL-2 pre-amp is fine working in the linear range (keeping amp gain no more than two-thirds). Of course, the SD 302 is top of the line - no comparison there. But I'm a bit concerned with the audio quality of your suggested solution if you're trying to keep a high-quality audio chain. I can't imagine the audio specs of a $180 Mackie Onyx Satelite comparing with the SD722 - I suggest you closely look at the specs for the analog/digital converters.

FYI - I also enjoy using my laptop (PC) for audio recordings, sitting right next to my Marantz PMD660; call me "belt and suspenders kind of guy" - I'm not willing to lose critical audio due to technical or cockpit snafus! But I haven't found either of these solutions provide better audio quality than my XL-2s.

On the other hand, I've found the gain pots on my Alesis Multimix are awfully noisy when the amps are turned up beyond half way. When I'm using a high quality inefficient mic like my Heil PR-40, I need to use an external pre-amp - forget the amp on the Alesis! So even while Mackie makes good stuff, we need to be careful with the configuations (sorry if I sound like I'm singing to the choir...)

Good luck, Michael