well more to the point, booming 5 people talking at the same time using a hypercardiod isn't the best thing in the world if they are randomly talking. no matter how fast the boom op is, if they have to go from one end to the other something will get missed. Cardoid mic will do better, be more forgiving.

I'm really thinking, loose the boom altogether and just go with a wireless lav on each person. In fact, though some others may disagree, you may be better off to use 4 wireless, and put 2 receivers on each camera. I've done plenty of ENG work like this. The camera ops _must_ pay attention to what they are doing with audio levels, but its certainly workable.I shot for years and years and never had an audio mixer and got sound that was fine with wireless gear mounted on the camera. that me though, and not your ops who don't have the experience... yet! However, a big benefit is that each mic will now be on its own channel so if you get a RF hit, not such a big deal. You also loose the tether between the 2 cams and mixer which will make the entire shooting experience much more low profile.

also another reason to loose the boompole is potential phasing when mixed with the lavs. an _exepianced_ mixer will hear it immediately, some one who isn't won't... and you'll then have thin sound with swishing in it.

last, you could find 4 used lectros for around $3200 which is your original budget. that would be body pak, receiver, _maybe_ as lav included.

also I'd look at rechargeable 9V lithium bats. not cheap, but once you start blowing thru 9V's it becomes far far cheaper to use the rechargables. Also consider that 9V's may not be readily available in some places.

Steve Oakley

I just wanted to add something. I've been on tons of shoots where the production team short changed audio. It's hell when that happens. I've worked on a production (for TV mind you) that had only one mic (ME66) and 2 G2 lavs that at any given time would break down from poor handling from the actors and the regular crew. They refused my advice and all I could do is shrug it off and work with it the best I could.

Another doosey: I'm called in last minute and find out the DP handled the rental of audio gear. I was stuck using a 416 in a very live room with a crappy mixer.

One of my all time favs was when the production company rented a completely wireless audio setup, including wireless to camera and we were sent off to shoot at an airport and in a limo through tunnels.

Lesson to you, and you're doing a good thing by asking for advice from people on this forum, think about your shooting scenarios and cover your ass.

And please have a good post guy on your team!

As a field recordist I don't believe in the "we'll fix it in post" mentality and nobody really does. It's just something people say when they feel helpless.

Anna is giving excellent advice when she suggests test runs (aka rehearsal). Take your cast and crew out into Seattle (where you can rent equip. to try) and do a version of what you will be doing abroad and see if you can make it all work up to a production standard you are happy with, or, if you aren't happy with it, use the test run to troubleshoot and work out all kinks. If you can't make it work at home chances are it ain't going to work in Tuva.

I will look into a cardiod mic (any suggestions?), as forgiving sounds like exactly what we need. I also like the idea of just going with the lavs in some situations. I think we are going to find ourselves in enough challenging spots that it wouldn't hurt to have a options for the way we handle the shot, even if it costs us more now.

Going with used lectros (or G2s), a boom/cardiod setup, and a 4 channel field mixer is beyond the 3k I had hoped to spend, but not outside the realm of possibility. It would hopefully also give us some flexibility, and be well worth the cost.

I have to say I have a new appreciation for the complexity and importance of good audio.

Here is another idea that you could test locally first. Rent two booms and two mics. Have two people operate these. Just like in basketball or football, have zones for each boom op. This way they only have to concentrate on a couple of people not the entire group. You can also try two things. First try a mixer (rent one), use it to explore options with two boom ops. Second, try without the mixer. Put one boom into CH1, the other into CH2. See how this works for you.

Here's the thing, if you really do this, you should have two people who can boom, and since people are doing this for the art and not for the money, then you will have two people who will volunteer to boom. If you really do this for the amount of time you mentioned, the boom ops will get pretty good at watching people and noticing the clues on who is going to speak (unless this is all scripted in which case they should know in advance), and so using a dual boom might just work for you and keep you on budget depending on the route you choose. The big bonus is you don't have to worry about the whole RF/Wireless rules in various countries.

Anyhow, just some additional food for thought.

Wayne

If you are shooting in questionable circumstances (legal, permit or safety reasons) booms are not possible...

Exactly what I was thinking in my note a few posts above. And I've been assuming it's scripted or at least reasonably predictable as to who will be speaking next to a pair of boom ops would be able to coordinate their aim. If, as Steve Oakley mentioned, it's just a group jabbering at random then all bets are off for booms. Not sure I'd agree with his suggestion to use a cardioid mic though. Most cardioids have working distances so close that you'd need to be almost hitting the cast on the tops of their heads with the mics to be close enough to get anything worth using. Couple that with their lack of off-axis rejection and you're going to inviting lots of headaches (if you excuse the term :>)

This is how I started thinking about it... two people splitting things up into zones and using either hypercards or better yet short guns with wider than normal patterns (think NTG-1/-2). Now, Petri has a good point about booms and legality, but just the other day I received a flyer for Lightwave Audio's new G5 boom pole. It's an 8 foot (~ 2.5 m) pole that has 5 sections that breaks down. I'm sure it's not cheap... is any boom pole cheap???, but it the kicker is a total break down of the pole. So, you might be able to use something like this.

If you're going to be a guerilla film team, and work without permits, you're going to have to think in guerilla terms... painter poles, heck maybe even pieces of wood with camps for the mics. None of these are pretty, but based on what I've heard so far, this seems to be the direction of this production.

Wayne

Dear Tom,

I'm not smart enough to know how to eat stock options, deposit them in the bank or pay the gas and electric bill with them. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

Some of it will have to be guerilla, without permits, etc, but we're also going to run into situations were we need to muster up all the legitimacy we can. And nothing says professional crew like a boom.

Based on what I've read so far we're going to need two setups - one with wireless lavs (if we can get them into the country), and one with a boom.

While we can move some money around to get extra budget for sound, we won't be ending up with an extra person for sound. If we had to boom the group with a single mic is our best bet to try and deal with the "headaches" (so to speak) of a cardiod, or is it a loosing battle?

Without giving away your program ideas, what is a typical scenario that you'll be shooting? An "Amazing Race" scenario is likely to require one sort of setup, "Great Illegal Casinos of The World" with your 5 players clustered yelling around the Craps tables while looking over their shoulders for the cops another, while your characters standing in a romantic location doing carefully scripted dramatic dialog yet another.

As for booming the group with a single mic, only you know the setup you'll be shooting in, how far apart the people will be from each other, whether you'll be shooting ENG/Doco style or repeating the scenes dramatic film-style from various angles to provide full coverage, that sort of thing. The boom mic needs to be aimed directly at the speaker and for a hyper usually around 18" and 24" from the speaker while a short gun might go, say, 24" to 36" inches away. Cardioids and omnis need to be even closer, down in the < one foot range, which is why they're not used so much for dialog. Those are just general rules of thumb - working distances vary between different mics so experiment. You need someone working the boom who either knows the script as well as the actors or can anticipate the ebb and flow of ad-lib speech so he can keep the mic always aimed at the person speaking. You can't just dangle a mic somewhere over the center of a cluster of people all talking at once and expect good results.

Headache. Trust me. You're going to be crying by the end of the day. One boom for 5 people is a no no. No matter how you block the scene. Multiple booms could work.

It takes a while to learn the dance between camera & sound op. Add to that 5 people improvising and you have a sound person working three times as hard with not so great results.

First off, I must note that I don't have nearly as much experience as a lot of people who have already replied here. But, I have done a fair amount of audio recordist work in my own country and overseas.

Do your research. Write down a list of ALL the locations you will be visiting, and find out the local laws in regards to radio frequencies, filming in public, custom laws, etc. This can all be found relatively easily on the Internet. You want to know EVERYTHING POSSIBLE about the locations you are visiting. Also find out what you can actually CARRY with you on the plane. Whenever I travel overseas with my Z1P, I take it on the plane with me along with all the expensive stuff (i.e. microphones, wireless gear, etc.). I've never had any problems, although I've always flown with "good" airlines to "stable" countries (South Africa, etc.).

What exactly are you filming? I've read through all these posts briefly, and can't work out what exactly you're planning to do, apart from having around 5 people talking in various parts of the world, without permits in some places.

Will these people be walking and talking? Running and talking? Swimming and talking?

I'm presuming you've already got the two Sony Z1's and you've definitely decided to go with these two cameras. That's cool - I love those Sony cameras. First off, you'll need GOOD operators. If you're getting interns to operate them - then train them up before you go. It's not that hard to teach someone how to use a camera competently. That's an advantage you've got. You can TRAIN your crew before you leave. Make sure they know their stuff. Research and training is the key!

Considering you have no money, and you're new to this, I would do the following. Others might (ok, will!) disagree:

1. Record straight to camera. It's not ideal, but will make life easier when shooting, it'll save you money on postal, it will make life easier in post production. It's NOT the right way to do it, nor is it the best way. But it will work. You'll have audio (not necessarily the best audio) recorded with the pictures. Personally, in your case, I think it's more important to worry about microphone selection and placement than what you're recording to.

2. Purchase three hyper-cardioid microphones with wind protection for use on boom poles. Train up your boom swingers before you leave. Practise, practise, practise! You can make it work - just. If you have absolutely no money, a Rode NT3 will work. I've used it on a boom many a time, and it works fine. It's NOT the right tool for the job, but us "indie film-makers" need to just make things work! Purchase three shotgun microphones as well. You whatever microphone is right for the job. Rode range or the ME66 microphone will work. Hopefully you can get away with only having to use two booms for each set-up (leaving the third as a spare).

3. Purchase four WIRED lapels. You can use these for any sit down interviews, etc. Forget wireless - you can't afford good stuff, you're GOING to have problems with frequencies and customs - it's just not worth the hassle. If you were filming in Australia, the UK, the States, New Zealand, etc. I would suggest just using a multi-channel recorder and 5 channels of DECENT radio mics - but you're travelling all over the shop. Wireless will cause you more problems than good.

4. Buy two field mixers. Sound Devices MixPre's will do. Have one for each camera. Give one each to your boom operators. If you have five people speaking, put the two most important people on lapels if possible (one lapel per mixer), and boom the rest. So on CAMERA A you'll have CAMERA LEFT BOOM 1 and CAMERA LEFT LAPEL 1. On CAMERA B you'll have CAMERA RIGHT BOOM 2 and CAMERA RIGHT LAPEL 2. If you can't lapel them then use that third boom pole.

That'll work. But! If you can gather together some more cash...

Get a Sound Devices 744T field recorder, a Sound Devices 422 mixer, three GOOD hyper-cardioid's on booms with wind protection and three GOOD shotguns, four GOOD wired lapels. Have one person take care of the audio recording, and two people on boom (with a third on standby if need be). The benefits for this are not only you'll get a better quality recording (due to the compression used on the Z1's), but you'll be "detached" from the cameras, making shooting easier. Depending on what exactly you're shooting, this could be a BIG help!

My suggestion: forget about all the "toys" for now. Work out what you want to achieve. Imagine in your head how the production is actually going to work. If you're all running around like madmen, then having cables between audio operators, cameras, boom poles, etc. is going to be hell. If all the shots are going to be "set up", then you can probably achieve everything you want using wired lapels (wired is ALWAYS better than wireless). If you're going to be doing "illegal/dodgy" things in "dodgy" places, then you want to be discrete and subtle - three boom poles won't work.

Work out how you want the production to flow, do your research, and then ask the SPECIFIC technical questions - such as which microphone is best for the job. At the moment, you're too vague, and that's probably why people have been "shutting you down".

I'm all for just "running out there" and making a movie happen. I'm all for indie productions. I'm all for using tools for jobs they weren't originally intended for. I'm all for breaking the rules and pushing the boundaries. But I always do my research first. I test and experiment. I ask questions (sometimes those questions may seem stupid). But I always treat audio seriously. I don't work out what cameras, and crew I can get and then think, "oh shit, gotta get some microphones and cables now".

You're production sounds exciting, and a hell of a lotta fun! But it won't be very funny if you can't get good sound and all of your equipment keeps failing (because you only paid for crap) or confiscated (because you didn't research the local RF laws).

So, stop, go back, do some research. Work out what YOU want. Then we'll all help you how to achieve it. Think before you ask. Most of the time you can answer your own question!

And remember, if you purchase QUALITY gear to start with, it will last you a very long time. If you purchase crap, it might last you the production, and then that's it. That could be fine! You might only need it for that particular show (SOMETIMES it makes more sense to buy 20 of a Chinese thing, than one of a good quality product as you can just keep replacing the Chinese thing when it dies). But you have to think long term. Do you wish to use this gear again, and again? Is it an investment? If so, then it might be worth buying the best you can (as someone else suggested, maybe one Z1 is better than two - it'd be nice to have a backup, but you haven't thought about an audio backup, so I'm assuming you're just going to hope nothing breaks). But if you're going to re-evaluate everything after this production, cut your losses and start again for the next one, then by all means, just make it happen with whatever you can get your hands on.

Just make sure you have plenty of all the oddbod stuff. Bring lots of spare cables, adapters, any existing microphones you having lying around (you might be able to use that PG81 you bought three years ago for something!). Buy plenty of gaffer, electrical tape, medical tape, clamps, pegs, magic arms, coat hangers - you're going to have to do a LOT of improvisation! And MAKE SURE you separate all the gear between your crew when you travel. That way if one person gets gets stolen off them, or confiscated, at least you'll have something left over to make it work. BACKUP/CONTINGENCY PLANS are VITAL. Plan! Plan! Plan! Research! Research! Research! Gaffer! Gaffer! Gaffer!

Hiring pros in each country would make the MOST sense, but I understand why you want to try and do it all yourself. It's the WRONG way to do it, but I've done exactly the same in the past and have learnt from my mistakes. In the end it'll be CHEAPER to hire pros that to do it all yourself (lets be honest - you'll need to hire pros anyway to FIX up all the audio in post if you use interns to record it!). But you CAN make it work if you do purchase it all yourself and make the best of whatever you get.

It's all very well to say, "purchase the best stuff" and "hire pros" but at the end of the day, it's not always possible. Sometimes you just have to make do with "crap gear" and "crap people" and whatever you end up with is what you end up with.

Sorry to all the pros out there if I've given this "newbie" bad advice.

Tom, good luck with the production! I hope this post is of SOME help.

Chris!

I'll have what Chris is having. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford