83 min feature - Soundtrack Pro?
 

I want to get peoples take on this workflow.
Our audio guy wants to work in STP for foly, mixing and ADR. Is this even possible for a feature. There are many things that I loath about STP but it integrates so well with the studio and will provide that final spits (for HD-CAM SR). Does anyone have any experience using this system for anything serious. Has someone sweated a feature with this app? What would you do if your project originated in FCP and your audio guy wants to cut in STp?
Thanks,
-C

All I will say is that we tried using STP for post sound and foley on a G5 for a 20 minute short and it crashed so much we gave up. I'm not sure what version of STP it was (or maybe it was just ST) but it's whatever version ships with Logic.

I ended up doing the post sound work straight in the timeline of FCP, solid as a rock.

I dont use stp as I find it too clunky, my workflow is final cut for track laying and rough cutting and then pro tools for final mixes and sweetening.

I then export the final mixes from pt and lay them back on the FCP timeline for final print.

I have used the latest STP extensively for both audio mixing and music creation.

Don't use it. Avoid it at all costs.

It's slow, buggy, clunky, bad interface, and is really designed for music creation, not audio mixing. I thought it was OK while I was only doing music stuff, but then started on with mixing and immediately decided to switch to Pro Tools. OMG Pro Tools. :) PT rocks.

I was disappointed by the lack of stability when "Soundtrack Pro" was upgraded to "Soundtrack Pro 2". But I very much needed the surround sound capability, so I didn't see a choice at the time.

I've been working with it since then, and yes, it crashes for no apparent reason every now and then or shows some other weird unexpected behavior. Still, all in all it helps me get the job done. Maybe the type of projects that I do and the workflow that I use just happen to make it less likely to expose its weaknesses, I really don't know. Maybe a few of the bugs have gotten fixed over time?

If I was forced to use something other than Soundtrack Pro, I'd probably use Logic instead. I already have it, and it, too, supports surround sound. As much as I'd like to play around with Pro Tools, a surround sound-capable Pro Tools system costs a LOT of money.

- Martin

What will my workflow be if I don't use STP? I mean, come on, it is so easy to integrate it from the "Send To" command. How else am I going to give my audio editor heads and tails on the audio (with "Send To" it link with the original audio click and allows heads and tails)?

If I were to use an audio app like Pro-tools, logic pro and/or cubase, what will my workflow be - bounce down single tracks to an aiff/wav file and then import in another edit. What about OMF for protools?

Ugh - I hate to say it but I may be force to stick with STP simply because of the "Send To" command. I don't want to export 40 hours of audio.
-C

Export OMF from FCP to pro tools and all you will get is the consolodated audio with extra handles that you can specify. I have tried STP and it just doesnt hack it for me as pro tools has way better editing and plug-ins. OMF from fcp to pt will give you the track lay as done on the video edit.

You can also export a guide quick time movie in Dv format and it will play with PT and the timecode timeline, I am using macs so I can also output the guide pic onto a big screen via firewire.

I use Pro tools LE 7.4.2 with the dv toolkit and even though you think stp will interface with fcp it is just so clunky compared to the FCP-PT workflow I use.

I also have broadcast PPM meters with pro tools so that all my final mixes are correct levels and is is very easy to re-sync the AIFF final mixes back onto the FCP timeline for delivery.

One other note to add is that pro tools can also work with virtual katy so if there are and re-edits the audio, automation and guide picture can be re-conformed to a different cut.

I'm glad (and unhappy) to read this string.

I feel pretty much the same way. I have even reached out to Apple on several occasions in a fairly nice way to offer them some insight on how what to do with Soundtrack Pro to make it less clunky, more intuitive; to bring it up to the level I perceive FCP to be. I get NOTHING back from them or snorts like who the heck am I to bring this up and nothing is wrong.

I went digital in my audio studio in 1990. I have used a bunch of different DAWs. I find audio in FCP is no walk in the park either, but I'm getting the work done. If I'm not working with video, I use PTLE; an 003R with third party preamps and A/D conversion. It really works for me.

If anyone from Apple gets this, again, STP (and the audio section of FCP) need work. I can help.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I sure hope Apple do get your comments Ty and I too was glad (and sad too!) to see this thread (having just paid out a shed load of money to get FCS2 and a MBP!!!). Obviously, I've just started learning STP2. Compared to the relative ease and intuitive user-friendliness I experienced with Sony's Vegas 7 etc. package then STP2 seems VERY clunky in places. I thought it was just me..... but obviously this is not the case - so I do feel happy about that!

A whole new ball game - but I will judge it better when I'm more up to speed as I'm determined to master it. I'll look at Pro Tools also I think.

Andy let me know if you need any further advice on PT as I have a fully working LE system with dv toolkit here.

One other important thing I use in PT LE is the PPMulator metering a bargain at £50 and essential for broadcast delivery :http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/ppm.php

I'm so close to buying FCS and this worries me that STP freaks out with audio.
Also large or long play times in the time line also crashes.

Simon

Thanks Gary for the kind off of help if I need it!

Admittedly, I've never used Soundtrack Pro for anything as long as a feature film, however I have used it for several small jobs, and not once has it crashed on me. I'll also admit, I'm not a full time audio mixer/editor, but as someone who spends a fair bit of time cutting together stuff in Final Cut Pro, I find that switching between Final Cut and Soundtrack to be a lot easier than switching between Final Cut Pro and Protools LE. This is not because of the workflow - as Gary said, the workflow between Final Cut and Protools LE is quite good once you invest in the tools (which are quite expensive!), it's mainly things like terminology and shortcut key changes. Although I have great respect for Protools (I've used it on several occasions now for various projects), and if I were SOLELY an audio editor I would stick with Protools 100% - but jumping from Final Cut to Protools LE is just too annoying! I keep on pressing all the wrong keyboard keys! Menus aren't where they would normally be in an Apple application. Yes - you soon start remembering where everything is again and you can just get on with it, but it's still annoying. And also, don't get me wrong - I don't think Soundtrack Pro is perfect. But considering it's price and it's amazing range of features (you can do some amazing stuff that you can only do in Protools with some really expensive plugins!), it's worth getting to know.

Obviously I respect the views and experiences from people like Ty who actually work with these various software packages on a day-to-day basis, but I also want to push the point that the latest version of Soundtrack Pro is still a great tool, and you can honestly get the job done using it. Sure it's not as powerful and well evolved as Protools - but I think if your someone who's primarily a Final Cut editor who's started doing more and more of the audio side (which is becoming a scary trend these days as budgets get smaller and less people are doing more things) then Soundtrack Pro is well worth investigating fully.

The main reason I'm posting today is to prevent other people from just skim reading this thread and instantly thinking that Soundtrack Pro is completely useless and a waste of time and money. It's not. It's a great tool. Give it a test run before you give up on it.

It's also important to note that although Protools LE is relatively cheap (and interfaces like the mBox are fantastic!) - by the time you add the other software tools that you need to get your timeline out of Final Cut and into Protools, it suddenly adds up quite dramatically.

Christopher, in answer to your original question, unfortunately I don't know anyone that's edited and mixed a whole feature using Soundtrack Pro. However, I do know many people and post houses that use Soundtrack Pro for high budget commercials and corporate videos. If you already have Protools, or another high end system in place, then obviously you'd use that. However, if at the moment you only have Final Cut Studio, then give Soundtrack Pro a test, and if it doesn't suit your working style, then start investigating other alternatives. Just keep in mind you can't just buy an mBox and have it INSTANTLY work with Final Cut Studio (you need the DV Toolkit, etc.).

I've tried to use Soundtrack Pro and Soundtrack Pro 2 and I figured something out: these applications are designed for doing awesome demos at trade shows. And sadly, that's it. In my experience they crash too much to be taken seriously. Maybe a future version will achieve some stability. But for now, stick with serious audio post production tools like Pro Tools, Digital Performer, or some of the other professional applications that have been used by professionals for years for editing and mixing audio. I can't believe Apple representatives can demo Soundtrack Pro 2 and suggest you use it on real project with a straight face. And this coming from someone who loves the Macintosh and edits with Final Cut Pro and LiveType and preparing DVDs with Compressor and DVD Studio Pro. All part of a stable set of tools. What's up with Soundtrack Pro? It's like a game of "who does not fit" among the Final Cut Studio applications. To be fair Soundtrack Pro has many wonderful features and a very clean interface and the idea of round-tripping w/ Final Cut Pro is wonderful, but it fails to work in the crucible of professional production.

I am curious as to why your audio guy wants to use STP.

Has he successfully used it before a project like you are doing?

The reasons he wants to use it and his experience (and success) with the program seems to be relevant.

Despite all the negative feedback here, I have successfully used STP 2 to mix a 2-hour feature film in 5.1, and several short (~20min) films. Here is the workflow that works very well for me.
- The FCP timeline was broken up into many sections of the film. Into 5-20 minute segments, each in it's own sub-timeline. Obviously, we had to make sure that each segment of the film was clean at the beginning and end, in other words, there could not be any transition sound or music between those scenes. Some sections were very long connected by music cue after music cue. Some were short and sweet.
- As each section was locked for picture, that segment was exported to a STP project file. This way if the picture did change, at worst we would only have to re-mix a small portion of the film.
- Each segment was mixed in STP, 5.1 surround. When completed, a 6-channel wav file was generated.
- Back in FCP, all the sections of the film were nested in a master timeline configured for 6-channel audio. The first two tracks were mapped to a stereo audio pair and played the stereo audio from the nested timeline. Then I mapped the next 6 tracks to the 6 channels of the 5.1 outputs.
- As each final 6-channel wav file was finished, I would disable the stereo pair for that section of the film, and drop in the final audio on the 6-channels.
- When everything is done, I export a Quicktime or send to Compressor.

So it can be done, and overall I think it went very well actually. Now, STP did crash several times, but I did start to sense when things were getting sluggish and proactively restarted STP as needed. And, there were some wierd issues with rendering, where panning effects or bus effects were incorrectly rendered. But a few re-renders magically "fixed" it (I still don't know why).

Attempting to mix this as a single 2-hour film would have been impossible, but due to the way we were cutting the film, our post-audio workflow worked out perfectly.

One final note, after you've been mixing in STP you'll drop your final WAV back into FCP and when you play it back it sounds like someone put cotton balls in your ears. I haven't looked into it, but I have a feeling FCP doesn't play the full dynamic range of the audio in order to save bandwidth for the video. When the final video is rendered from FCP, the full dynamic range of the audio comes back again.

Obviously, given this thread and general word of mouth, Soundtrack Pro has some issues. As soon as you mention Soundtrack to most people working in post, they generally just say "it's useless, it crashes all the time". Now this might be true! But what I find strange is that when you click "Search" on this program and type "Soundtrack Pro crash" you get no results. Google returns a lot of results on this topic - but when you do a bit of investigating through various forums, blogs and websites there seems to be no conclusion as to why the application is crashing. People just give up! But by the same token, there seems to be a lot of people that are using Soundtrack Pro without any problems. So what's going on? Well either the people successfully using Soundtrack Pro are only doing simple tasks or are lying about doing complex jobs, or that there's something that's conflicting with the software (i.e. software, hardware or driver conflicts, etc.). I've had a couple of people tell me that they hate Soundtrack Pro and that it keeps on crashing on them. When I try to recreate the problems, I never can. And it's not that I'm running on super amazing hardware either - I'm still on a G4!

Personally, I think one of the reasons why Apple isn't urgently rushing out massive loads of bug fixes is because, like me, they are having recreating the problems. That's not to say that the bugs aren't there - they no doubt are - it's just that you must need the right combination of things to happen to cause these serious crashes.

Keep in mind, that I'm purely talking about the random CRASHES here. The other issues of course are (and I quote) the "bad interface", it's "unintuitive", "clunky", etc. But I think a lot of this comes down to personal preference. Personally I found Protools to be unintuitive! It's certainly not a piece of software you just can sit down to without any prior knowledge and just make work (unlike Final Cut Pro). Of course, once you work out how it functions, and you learn all the shortcut keys, then it's super stable and amazingly fast. But it does take time. I'm not sure if people who try out Soundtrack Pro really take the time to get past the initial stumbling blocks.

Again, I'm not writing this to claim that somehow Soundtrack Pro is the world's greatest software package, nor am I writing this to say that everyone's lying about Soundtrack Pro crashing. As I said, I don't use audio editing/mixing software on a day-to-day basis, nor am I an expert in the field. But I do wonder why, if Soundtrack Pro is really as bad as everyone makes out, why more people aren't complaining. Surely if it was crashing non-stop, then Apple would be being inundated with requests, and there would be a lot more software updates than there currently is (...and yes, I understand that sometimes Apple is a bit slow in fixing certain things - just look at some of the bugs that stuck with Final Cut across multiple versions, but you get my point).

What I would REALLY like to see, is that when Soundtrack Pro DOES crash, that people report it to forums like this so discussions can be had to work out what the problems are, and how they can be fixed. Maybe it's a very simple conflict issue. Obviously I don't think Soundtrack Pro is perfect, but it will never get any better if people don't actually report issues when they pop up.

My Soundtrack Pro rant aside, and getting back to the original point - Jack is right on the money. Why does your sound mixer/editor want to use Soundtrack Pro in the first place? Is it purely the fact that the integration between Soundtrack Pro and Final Cut is SUPPOSEDLY quite good? If that's the case, then as Gary pointed out, the integration between Protools LE and Final Cut is quite good as well. Always keep in mind that all of these software packages are just TOOLS. You need to use the right tool for the job and the artist. My suggestion would be to work out which software package will give your audio editor/mixer the most creative control and freedom, and then ask questions and investigate how you develop the workflow for this package. There's ALWAYS a way to get from Software Package A to Software Package B. Sometimes it just takes a bit of creative thinking to work it out...

Good luck!

If I do a Google search for '"soundtrack pro" crash' I get many results. I can cause it to crash pretty easily. Software only editing, no third party hardware interfaces in the loop. Maybe it's a software driver conflict. Who knows. You are welcome to come visit my edit suite anytime :-). I don't have the patience to be a beta tester when I'm trying to get work done. I think many other people are in the same boat as far as STP goes. Keeping projects as short as you can does reduce the likelihood of crashing in my experience. I "report" most of my crashes to Apple. I wonder what they do with all those crash reports. And where I'm coming from, a big fan of Final Cut Studio 2, I really wish this was not so.

Opps! Correction... I meant to say:

But what I find strange is that when you click "Search" on this FORUM and type "Soundtrack Pro crash" you get no results.

All good points David... And you're 100% right - if you're a full time professional, obviously you simply do not have the time to use software that isn't stable and reliable. But what I don't understand is, why aren't all the film schools and educational facilities around the world screaming about Soundtrack Pro crashing all the time - or are they? There are countless courses and training packages around the world focussing on Soundtrack Pro. Are they all suffering the same issues? Sorry - I'll stop pushing this now, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. Obviously it's not working for you, and many other PROFESSIONAL users around the world. But I'm just curious as to what the actual cause is, and how we convince Apple to fix the issues - because obviously, Apple doesn't seem to think there is much wrong with the software...

Given all these interesting posts, I'm really interested to see what you end up doing Christopher! Keep us posted!

I think the rigors of professional production and an educational environment are often different. I think Soundtrack Pro is fine for short things, I've used for a couple of two or three minute pieces. I like the interface. It's great for teaching. It's elegant. It does M-S stereo decoding (I sometimes use it for). But I think professionals do much more complex mixes, demand more, and are working under pressure, and thus they, as you suggest, have different criteria.

I actually think it's a brilliant software testing strategy, put it out there, and in two or three versions, it will become a rock solid performer. Anyone remember the first version of Final Cut Pro? It had all sorts of problems. Now Final Cut Pro is rock solid (for the most part) in version 6. I'm looking forward to Soundtrack Pro 3 and 4. In the meantime, my mission critical work flows through Digital Performer. Have you ever noticed how most of the tried, true, and rock-solid professional applications (except for Pro Tools) don't have the word Pro in them?

And in case it's not obvious, I only complain 'cause I really wish I could be using Soundtrack Pro 2 for more things. I hate buying two software upgrades when I could be buying one.

I've had Soundtrack since the first release. Even out of the blocks they are missing on some very simple, basic GUI things and functionality.

I agree with a previous poster; demos great, with some useful features, but gets bogged down. If it were combed out and made right it would be a LOT more useful.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Wow, this post has exploded. Thanks for everyones valuable thoughts.
The sound designer wants to use it because he's read numerous books about STP and our deliverables MUST include a 5.1 mix (this is something that STP is shockingly fast at creating). Additionally, since the feature is living in FCP, all original media was provided via a massive G-Raid2 drive. He can always reference back to the original camera source audio (not second system) if he'd need to. In other words, he'll have the locked picture project file to reference for massive heads and tails on edit points.

The second question was workflow which will be short, 10-15 min segments. These segments are broken up from marker points in FCP and contain the locked bits of the feature (intro graphics and end credits omitted). Just picture to picture. Once these "chucks" are completed they'll have corresponding numbers and be dithered for inclusion into the master project. The big picture is output on HD-CAM SR containing 10 channels of independent audio (for international distribution).

Overall, I've been shocked (in the past) at the instability of STP yet there are huge advantages (for us) to using this application. We'll slug through these potential annoyances and get our mix.
Webb - I'll have some questions for you when we get closer.
-C

I have recently been working with Soundtrack Pro 2 (and also with 3) and all I can say: avoid this program at all costs. It is clunky and crashes very often.

I shot a two hour theatreplay and was cleaning up the audio. I used send to Soundtrack to edit it there. First of all, you can't analyze the whole thing as Soundtrack Pro runs out of resources. Once you have analyzed it, you can't fix it anymore because the app crashes during the fix. I also tried doing it in parts but even like 40 minute parts already cause the app to crash. For a comparison, I used Adobe Soundbooth CS4 with an exported AIFF file. It managed to achieve the analyze/fix click/pop in like 9 minutes without stuttering. I tried the same in Soundtrack Pro. Export to AIFF again and import the AIFF into Soundtrack Pro. Now it went a little bit faster (no video preview) but the App still doesn't succeed in getting done what I want. And if it crashes, you have to analyze again. And if you run out of resources during the analyzing part, you can save but when you open you need to redo it again.

Really, how can one call this a serious audio application?

Apple really needs to get the other apps in the Final Cut Studio suite together. Because some of them are either really bad, not good integrated or not developed actively.

Common Apple, I know you can do it if you want to.

I have made overtures to Apple that they consider hiring me (or someone) to work with them in cleaning up STP so that it could be a vastly more usable tool. So far, I seem only to have hurt their feelings. This was not my intention.

At present, it remains quirky and feels like it is an audio software created by the IT department. Were it retooled to be more intuitive and functional in the way audio is usually handled, we would all be better served.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: Sorry to hurt your feelings Apple, but my offer is still open.

What are my options if I don't want to work with Soundtrack Pro?

Many of you use Pro Tools. I also read about Digital Performer.

I tried Sound Booth but I think that's more like an audio editor and not an audio mixer. I don't want to get to advanced in audio production... I want to find a good audo program to clean up audio (clicks/pops/noise/coughs/mobile phones/hums) and do some basic mixing etc. under video content. I like intuitive software (like Final Cut Pro). I have mac only studio so I need Mac compatible software. What do you guys use to clean up small audio files? And what do you guys use for final mixing under a longer feature?

Any advice would be appreciated.

I am using FCP to track lay as much as possible and then export OMF to pro tools.

I have a 002 console running PT v8 with the DV toolkit, this gives me 128 tracks into 32 buses for final mixing to AIFF file that are then re-laid on the FCP master cut timeline.

I also work to a DV picture which pro tools can output via firewire to a third screen.

I used to use AMS Neve audiofile but pro tools is more suited to modern file based production.

So you need a third screen to work with video? Or can I use my secondary monitor?

I know that Logic 9 also has a edit to video option... does anyone have experience with Logic Pro for doing this kind of work?

No you can use just one or two screens with pro tools and put the windows where you want, it also has the ability to run the DV picture down the firewire pipe to a third if you want to.

Considering the cost/function ratio, Logic would appear to be a reasonable choice.

I've been dissapointed with STP too. I hoped to import OMF's in to it and then top and tail things before moving on to PTLE. It did not play at all well with Avid educational that an editor I know has. Waste of time.
Also it keeps resampling the last fraction of a second when I pause playback which then gives you a clicking sound constantly. It crashes.

You can not easily save files without going through the menus. I hoped it would stop me from missing Wavelab. The only thing I really miss with the Mac is Wavelab. I am now trying Audacity but Wavelab was my favourite stereo editor by far.

PTLE is so much better for eq and dynamics and editing. I would really like a native version of Pyramix but not sure what that would cost.

Thumbs down to STP. I agree with Ty that Apple have done a poor job with it. FCP has bashed AVID but they have yet to bash AVID's audio sibling ... Pro tools. Would be good if they tried harder.

Problem with pro tools is you need the DV toolkit and it's a grand £1000 approx

Has anyone used Logic for mixing audio to video?

I haven't invested much time in any program so I want to make a good decision because I will need to follow some tutorial/training to get going.

I tried iZotope RX and I like it a lot. Great interface and rocksolid. I imported the large audiofile (that killed Soundtrack Pro over and over) and performed multiple tasks (declick, declip, spectral repair, denoiser etc.) and it didn't crash once. Applying those tasks to an audio file is lightning fast and it is easy to switch between before and after takes.

It would be nice if you could save 'projects' so you can come back to your work later. As far as I know, once you save the changes are applied to the audio file and if you open it again you can't undo them anymore. That's the only negative I found so far.

So all I need now is a good audio mixing application. I am going to play a bit with Digital Performer and see if I can export something to Logic to give it a go.

Pro Tools is out of my budget range.

Yes, Izotope RX is superb - I couldn't agree more.

I've primarily used STP for recording/mixing short VOs (5-6 minutes tops) and cleaning up individual clips sent from FCP, and for those purposes it's always worked well for me (never crashed). Sounds like maybe it doesn't work very well once the timeline gets too complicated - better treated as primarily a waveform editor?