Sennheiser MKH-416: Ready to buy
 

I'm preparing for a summer production and am looking for mics. It's been suggested to me that I look into the Sennheiser MKH-416. I've heard this is one of the best, and I'm looking at the two versions: P48U3 (48V Phantom) and TU3 (12V A-B T-Powered). Has anyone here used either, would recommend one over the other?

Now, the guy that works with this mic is probably a bit bias, so I'm open to suggestions. I'm looking to keep it under $1100.

Hey I have the MKH416 48P, and I love it...for outdoor use that is. And I'm pretty sure you want the 48P version, since T-power isn't really used anymore :) I imagine one of the seasoned sound mixers on this board can give you a more detailed reasoning and history, but I thought T-power was/is a power config for some of the earlier microphones, and is not supported too much today since recorders/mixers/cameras use 48V phantom power as the standard now.



Microphones and Instrument Preamps - Phantom Power

Well, any information would be great. I'm more of a camera person. This mic will be used indoor and outdoor for a film production. I can't really give more specifics as to the environment that it'll be in, outside of both indoor and out. Thanks for the comments. All are extremely helpful!

Chris is right - if you purchase this mic, get the 48p version for *much* greater compatiblity with today's gear, period.

This is a great mic.

However, you should be aware that a shotgun mic can be a problem indoors in most home/office/retail environments. The issue is that shotguns tend to have some sensitivity to the rear of the mic in lower frequencies, when those freqs are bouncing off a ceiling it can and does lead to some very typical problems.

The mic of choice for indoor booming (mostly) is a supercardoid aka. hypercardoid.

The mic of choice for outdoor booming (mostly) is a shotgun like the 416, and many recordists like it a great deal. Usually it will not be used indoors except on a sound stage, or other high-ceiling fairly dead room.

Hmm, that's concerning...

Checking the site, it lists this mic as: Condenser, Super-Cardioid/Lobe. I assume there is no way to avoid this effect indoors, even with a windshield or something on it. Hmmm...thoughts? I really only have 1100 to spend, mabye a bit more. I can use the camera's mic indoors, but I hate to have to do that. And since this mic has had so much praise across the board, that's why I found my way there.

Well, if you're on a budget, I know you can get the Rode Nt3 mic from BH at a decent price. I own it, and it does sound great for indoors (considering the price, though I know it can't compare to a $2grand Schoeps).

My only qualm with it is it's rather front heavy for a boom, but it can work.

Not sure how the Rode NT3 will work well indoors while still on a boom mic. Reviews say it's excellent hand held or on a mic stand, but most of this shoot will require boom work. Or is this mic strong enough to pick up off a boom? I didn't think so, but I could be wrong. Again, thanks for the help!

Ha ha ha. It is true that it is heavy on a boom, but that's when you should tell the boom operator to lift some weights:)

In all seriousness, since the shoot isn't until the summer, you might want to look at some mid level ($400-500) HC mics: Right now I'm eyeing the Audix SCX-1 HC and the AT4053a HC. I've heard a couple people pimp the Audix, but the price BH has the 4053a makes it little more appealing. When I buy either one, and if you're interested I'll give you some feedback.

A couple people also mention AKG blue line mics, since most of the capsules are easy to find and are dirt cheap.

And yes, I'm extremely bored at work, and daydreaming about the wild adventures in the day of the life of a sound mixer/boom operator.

Perhaps that's the best plan then, get the MKH-416 for outdoor use, save up, and get something for indoor use that won't cause whatever problem may exist from using the shotgun indoors. You all seem to praise the MKH-416 for outdoor use, and really, that's what I'm most concerned about. If anyone has any other thoughts, I'd gladly hear them!

Consider too the Rode NTG-3. Too bad Rode has made their naming a little confusing - the NT3 and the NTG-3 are different mics. The NTG-3 is very similar in sound and behaviour to the Senn MKH416 but at a substantially lower price. Recently got one from Guy at DVeStore and am in the process of testing. So far I'm very impressed and would give it a strong recommendation for consideration.

I'd agree with Steve, consider the RODE NTG-3. In a blindfold test, I'd bet that even well trained ears will sometimes mistake the $699 NTG-3 for the $1099 MKH-416.
If you look at the specs on paper, they're nearly identical.

And psst....theres a coupon code over at RODE NTG-3 Shotgun mic $100 off coupon - The Digital Video Information Network
Either way, we have both mics in stock if you'd like either, you can use the $100 coupon code on the RODE or a 5% dvinfo discount on the Sennheiser.

I'd consider getting the RODE and investing the difference in a Gitzo or KTEK carbon fiber boom pole, or if you don't already have one, in a pre-amp/mixer such as Sound Devices Mix Pre or a PSC PSC Audio Mixers, or depending on the indoor rooms you're shooting in, I might also be looking on eBay for a pack of 10 moving blankets and some c-stands. Then you can use the shotgun indoors with great results. A little room treatment does wonders.

I know this truly demonstrates my newbness, but if even some professionals are confused by the difference here, what is the true difference between the two: RO/SN?

Any piece of equipment is only as good as the person operating it. Those skilled boom ops for example can get some outstanding results with equipment a lot of people call inferior. In some cases you get what you pay for, in other cases, you get more than what you paid for.

Products and their results are very subjective. I will say this however, some people can't ever tell the difference between audio product results, and others can listen and tell you from certain characteristics what product is being used.

I realized that this didn't really answer your question, but ultimately I don't think anybody but you can answer it. However, I also realize that may be a bit of a catch-22 if you can't compare things side-by-side. This is where opinions come into play. I like the 416 (I own the 418S), I have not heard the NTG-3 (has anyone really used this mic yet?), so I can't compare the two. However, based on my experience with the NTG-1, I will say that in general RODE is one of those companies that tends to give you more for your money.

Wayne

Rode is 5mm longer. Senn sensitivity 25mVPa, Rode sensitivity 31mV/Pa. Senn has very slightly narrower pattern. Audible difference, Senn slightly more bass on male voices. That's really about it.

Well, RODE is sounding more and more like the smarter answer here. If the two perform very well, and only a pro is going to tell the difference, my audience probably won't have a clue. Unless someone has had some bad experiences with this RODE, I might give it a shot.

NTG-3 for outdoors and Oktava 012 hyper for indoors. And still you save some for Rycote's Invision or Lyre based suspension mounts. The S-System springs to mind. Two job specific mics and a full S-system suspension with windjammer from Rycote for the money of one 416...
... actually the NTG 3 works in small spaces indoors too if there are no room reverb etc.

T

Can that mic be placed on a boom if necessary and pick up at a decent distance? Looks like the RO and some moving pads are the best overall deal for my project....

Absolutely! The Rode (and the Senn) is designed as a boom mic. But define "decent distance" :) Short guns such as the MKH416 or Rode NTG-3 are at their optimum at roughly 2 to 3 feet from the subject. Hypercardioids need to work somewhat closer, usually around 18 to 24 inches for optimum. Using a directional mic closer than its optimum leads to issues with enhanced bass presence from the proximity effect unless it has been designed as a stage vocal or announce mic, in which case the low frequency response will have been contoured to compensate for the closer working distance. Too far away and it starts to get weak and thready with too much ambience (and room slap indoors) starting to intrude.

Thinking of the Goldilocks theory of booming ... "this mic's too close, this mic's too far, this mic's juuuuuuust right!" LOL

Haha! Well I think I'll be going with the RO for sure, but what I meant by my previous post is this: can you put the Oktava 012 on a boom, and how efficient is that going to be? Really when it comes down to it, it looks like a short gun mic is going to be my best bet in and outdoors, with anything I can do inside to improve sound.

I'll just chime in here and say that I have a little experience with Rode products and I think they are built and sound very good. I purchased an NT-3 (not the NTG-3) from DvCreators.net some time ago and don't regret it at all. It sounds to be as though this plus a seperate MIC for your indoor shots affords you the best performance while still coming in under your $1100 budget.

Good luck,

Jon

Not sure what you mean by "how efficient is that going to be?" Certainly the Oktava can be mounted on a boom and those who have do that all the time.

Visit Ty Ford's website and download his mic basics video clip where he compares a short shotgun and a hyper indoors - you'll see yourself why having both is a good idea. If you're not in a hurry, I'm hoping to record some tests with my NTG-3 this weekend and I'll set up a comparison between it and my Schoeps hyper.

Steve, I'm in no hurry, and would be happy to hear your sound test. 2 mics, one well performing outdoor, and one well performing indoor, I believe, will be a better deal than one really well performing outdoor, and nothing additional. Let me know when you've got the NTG-3 clip; I'd be very interested in hearing how well it performs first hand. Again, thank you all for the suggestions. So, where might one find this video you speak of?

A lot of this is kinda like arguing about what happens in the afterlife. You kinda need to go there to experience it before it makes sense.

If you are going to make a film, somebody besides the cameraman needs to be in charge of sound. That person should ideally be an audio snob the way that the cameraman is a video snob and ideally the sound guy gets to choose what he wants for mics.

If you only have $1100 total for all audio gear, then you need to buy the cheaper mics to have money left over for things like mic cables, boom pole and wind protection, which can be hideously expensive.

The main reason to buy a shotgun is for outdoor shooting and if you are outside, wind becomes a major issue. For my first shotgun i bought an at 4073a for $599 and to accompany it i bought a rycote blimp that cost $650. The wind protection cost more than the mic! On the other hand, i have zero wind issues now so... hard to put a price on it.

You'll need at a bare minimum:

1. boom pole (the lighter it is, the longer you'll be able to shoot)
2. shock mount
3. wind protection (Toenis made some good suggestions there)
4. mic cable (canare starquad is a good choice)
5. headphones. Dont cheap out here. Mic placement makes a HUGE difference in audio quality, and the only way to know if your placement is working is to monitor it with headphones. A good choice is sony 7506 for around $100.
6. oh yeah, a mic.

If the story is good, and the audio legible, the video can be crap. I can watch vcds with people walking in front of the camera and still be absorbed in the film. However, if the audio is bad and i'm struggling to hear what is being said? forget it. Since audio is SUCH an important part of video, if you are making a film that you want people to enjoy, you need someone with a passion for audio to be controlling the audio. It is NOT a matter of buying a certain mic and pointing it in the general direction of the actors... any more than camera work is buying a camera based on the sensor type and pointing it at the actors.

No matter what gear you buy, if the cameraman is in charge of sound, its gonna be compromised.

... my 2c.

Ok Mr. Dean. Assume that I buy the $600 NTG-3. That leaves me with $500 more to spend. Do you have some recommendations for specific boom pole, shock head. I think I can handle the cables :P And those headphones look pretty sweet. Hopefully I'll be able to find someone that knows their stuff here in town, but despite my hometowns avid interest in the arts, rarely are they willing to step up and help, either financially, or via participation.

B&H Offers some complete NTG-3 Kits that may be of interest to you.

Ok, let's throw another cog into this equation. I want this mic to go from SLR to 1/8th inch. Somewhere in there, it's got to go through something to provide phantom power, yes? How is that done? I apologize for my newness to all of this, but you guys are an excellent source of information. I am very grateful.

You would need an adapter box such as a Beachtek or JuicedLink that provides phantom power or feed the mic through a field mixer such as a Sound Devices MixPre or 302 that provide power. The NTG-2 has an internal battery so it can be self-powered but the NTG-3 does not.

Brian:

If you have to bring the audio down to the 3.5mm plug, and you have only phantom powered mics, then you need a mixer or audio recorder, or something similar that allows you to then go out to a line level signal. You can't provide phantom power from a 3.5 mm connector.

Wayne

Sign Video ENG44 mixer could serve you quite well but it is in the $500 class (and that's actually the cheapest quality mixer.) Denecke phantom supply is quite alright too and cheap.
But all in all I'd get a SD 302 mixer and cheaper mics llike NTG 1 or 2 and the Oktava hyper.
I'm still regretting our company didn't went that route. Now and many more dollars later we still aren't there where we could with the SD302 mixer and the mics I mentioned.

T

It's been suggested that if I drop below the NTG-3 in terms of noise ratio, I'll regret it later down the line. So I think I need to stick with the NTG-3, and find some way to get the best that I can with the remaining budget I have. Of course, that budget was to also cover some costs for the cables and boom, but I might be able to put together a little more...

Also, keep in mind, I don't need anymore than 2 XLR ports. We're not going to be using more than one mic. Thoughts?

In case you havent seen before - but i found this site from Ken fantastic useful:

As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone

Excellent site. I'll have to check it out a bit more when I get to work (strangely, that's when I have all my free time). I am also meeting with someone that actually works with some of these mics, so I might get to test them out a bit.

I think there was someone a while back that said they were getting one of these mics and might be able to post some audio... ?

That wuz me. Need to figure out where to post it, drop me an email off forum and I can mail an mp3 to you.

Sent! Check your mail.