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-   -   wireless lapel on a budget--is it real (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/20036-wireless-lapel-budget-real.html)

Nick Brennan January 19th, 2004 12:40 AM

wireless lapel on a budget--is it real
 
hello
ive been on the web for about 4 hours looking for a decent wireless lapel mic system....i need the mic, the transmitter, and the reciever.....everywhere i went they were really really over my head and they seemed to be all sold separately....

can i really not get a decent wireless mic kit for under $200 bucks?

or does anyone know of a good database of info where i could see a large selection....? thanks room, im gonna go donate some blood to make extra money for my lapel mic......

Don Bloom January 19th, 2004 06:46 AM

To get a "Decent" wireless, transmitter/receiver and mic NEW for under $200 is pretty much a daydream. HOWEVER, there are options. 1)Buy used-you still probably won't find a really good one but if you keep your eyes open you might be able to get ahold of a decent one-

2) sell more blood and save up until you have around $400 then start looking - I know it's double the money but hinestly to get a DECENT unit you'll need to be in that area.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,
Don

Nick Brennan January 19th, 2004 07:06 AM

oh
 
bring on the red cross and orange juice....yea haww!


but really, the senhieser the is best way to go once i have saved the money?

Nathan Gifford January 19th, 2004 08:24 AM

You might be able to find a VHF system in that price range, but be aware that there are all kinds of interference problems that may vex you.

And yes, I thing the Sennheiser Evolution 100 systems is one of the best deals on the market.

Dave Largent January 19th, 2004 04:55 PM

I would recommend the Airline. Never heard a bad word about it, from anyone who's actually used it. I have it myself. Works fine. Get 80 to 100 feet "line of sight" before drop outs.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=219777&is=REG

Douglas Spotted Eagle January 19th, 2004 05:32 PM

Here I go recommending an AT system again, they've got a very nice little VHF system that's reliable out to about 80 feet, but I'd never trust any VHF that far. We've used it on a GL2 for many interviews at distances of about 15 feet. We ran into one noise/interference issue once, and that's it. Both receiver and transmitter are battery powered. You can buy with a couple mic choices, the ATR 35 comes stock on it. Mic's are connected via consumer 1/8 connectors. Has a headphone out for monitoring the signal direct. For 120.00, it's very hard to beat. They also offer a balanced adaptor for about 10.00 more.
http://www.audiotechnica.com/guide/wireless/PRO88W.html

http://www.sweetronics.com/audio-technica-pro-88w.html

Definitely not the best solution, but for a budget production, it's a very nice sounding solution.

Marcia Janine Galles January 20th, 2004 06:09 PM

Dave, I'm confused about something regarding the Airline. I checked the B & H link you posted, and if I understand it correctly, it doesn't require a lav? The AT MT350 is packed with it, so when would use it with or without the external? How powerful is this little set-up with/without the external? Indoors only w/ no appreciable interference? Outdoors ok, but not great? What I'm wondering is how great it's going to pick up two people standing/sitting together if this thing is clipped at waist level. Seems like a stretch, and that I'd have to go with the external. Which brings up... is that a respectable but not great external lav that they have packaged with it?

Basically I'm needing to save money, but will need to pick up more than one person at a time, eg. two (to several) people standing/sitting together outdoors, in a home, and in a big dining hall. And I'm operating under the assumption that I need two lavs, two transmiters, two receivers. This got my attention owing to the price.

Dave Largent January 20th, 2004 06:40 PM

Hi Marcia,
The trasmitter has an inbuilt microphone with a clip
with a spring on the back so that you can clip it to
a persons pocket. Of course, it's a bit heavier than
a lav mic. Mostly how I've used it is plug the lav into
the transmitter, drop the transmitter into the persons
inner or outer pocket (not much of a buldge cuz it's the smallest transmitter made) and clip the lav on the
lapel or near a button or at the top of shirt. Due to
the lav having no weight to it, the person won't even
notice it there.
Seems to work about the same indoors or out.
For two people, best to clip the transmitter to pants
with the attached belt clip and run the lav to the center of chest area. Or like I said, just slip into a pocket.
Regarding the lav quality, it is better than I expected.
No problems. I've only heard good things said about
this system.
Unless the people talking are within a few feet, best to use two systems. The systems come in six different
frequencies so you can use six at once.
Best thing about this system is it's small, light, and quick.
And it's easy to use. I just put the transmitter's gain to max and put the lav about a hand span down from the
mouth.
When I first got it I was a bit skeptical cuz it was so lite weight and plastic-ee. But once I heard how good it sounded ....
Anymore questions, ask away.

Dan Brown January 21st, 2004 08:30 AM

Dave, thanks for the detailed report on the Samson Airline.

I've been waffling on a wireless (well, waffling on sound in general), but I'm getting close to shooting time and need to make a decision.

As an amatuer, the low price of the Airline is appealing. So is the small size and light weight. In fact. using two Airlines into the mic-level input of my Pana DV852 seems like a good compromise for exterior shooting, especially with a minimal/inexperienced crew. I could forego the Beachtec, boom pole, sound guy, etc. Clip one transmitter on each 'talent' and focus on the camera work. In post, I'd have the two audio tracks to work with.

The transmitter part of the Airline seems like it would make a convenient 'plant' even without the MT350 attached.

With the two receivers mounted on-camera, I could use a steadicam/glidecam without the problem of dangling wires or separate audio recording gear. Although I couldn't use the headphones.

What's the down-side of these approaches? Poorer audio quality? Radio interference & dropout? Range? Background noise (vis-a-vis a cardioid on boompole)? Durability?

Thanks.

Dave Largent January 21st, 2004 12:58 PM

Audio quality should be alright, though you may get less ambient, which may not be a bad thing. One thing nice about a lav versus boom pole is you're getting the
mic real close to the mouth so this will yield a full sound due to the proximity effect.
I haven't used the Airline much, but I've never had any radio interference, nor have I been able to find any mention of anyone else having it, either.
Outdoors, I got 80 feet line-of-sight distance before
drop outs began. Indoors, the max I've tried it out at was about 50 feet, and I had no drop outs at that distance.
From the little I've used the system, I don't think
durability would be an issue.
What type of project are you working on? And how are
you planning to split off the audio into left and right
channels if you're not using a Beachtek?
And what about the possibility of using wireless
headphones with a steadicam? Which steadicam
are you looking at?
I notice you mention "exterior" shooting. Wind blast will be an issue with any mic used outdoors. What are your plans for dealing with the wind?

Marcia Janine Galles January 21st, 2004 02:45 PM

Dave, I'm gonna butt back in here and ask another question...

If I want to shoot a group of kids sitting on the grass, listening to two "speakers" each in turn, and I have the two "speakers" set up with airlines, does the receiver have to remain line of sight to pick them up? The reason I'm asking is I'd like to shoot the speakers as well as the kid's reactions, and if I have the two receivers mounted on my cam, won't it all go to heck when I turn away from the speakers to shoot the kids? Do I need to rigg the receivers up on light stands or something? And any suggestions as to how? (Kinda thinking as I'm typing here...) Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea... would have to have their feed going into something else then (like the Marantz - PMD something - compact flash recorder, though it's pricey), but then I could catch the kids reacting with my ME66 on my camera, recorded to tape, though there'd be a LOT of noise I realize. Hmmmm... what to do, what to do. I just can't see booms working well for this...

Dan Brown January 21st, 2004 02:55 PM

Thanks Dave:

I'm working on a short comedy with about half shot out of doors (apartment parking lot and front yard of a residence) and half shot indoors (residential). I do want some sound of a vehicle driving.

I was going to use my two Oktava M012 cardioids. Either planted, or on a large stand/boom combo I picked up at B&H. I got some decent foam screens for them too (Windtech Ultra Series) and shock mount. Original plan was to place talent carefully beneath the mic, and then do multiple takes as needed. Ambient, first talent, second talent, etc.

I always felt a need for wireless, when doing the moving vehicle stuff (tire roar, brakes, car stereo sound, etc.).

After reading all the great info here on DVi, I'm starting to think that lavs would give me better audio, and that wireless would be much more flexible. Dunno about wind protection for the lavs, maybe there are some decent little screens for them. I also have some control to shoot on relatively calm days.

Any comments will be appreciated.

Cheers...

Dave Largent January 21st, 2004 03:12 PM

Marcia,
What camera(s) are you using? And will you be working alone, or will you have assistance?

Dave Largent January 21st, 2004 03:22 PM

Dan,
You've got the 012s? I've been thinking about
looking into the Oktavas. How do you like them?
Have you ever tried them with music? Where is
a good place to make a purchase?

Marcia Janine Galles January 21st, 2004 03:27 PM

Dave, I'm using the DVX100, and am probably going to get the Wondercam Mini Rover cam grip (or similar mount) which I can then (for most uses other than the above scenario) attach the wireless to (on the top connector), or the shotgun on it's shoe, while using a little Frezzi as needed on the cam shoe for night. I'm assuming that since the airline is so small that two receivers would be able to rest on the bridge, but dunno. Need to find out more.

Insofar as will I have assistance, that's the big question at present. I started a thread about that under the Open forum called "Project viability question (or "Am I nuts?"). The latter, most assuredly. :-) Lots of grants out and no takers to date, but there's still time. Come May I have to decide to go it alone or scratch. I may snag some good hearted help alone the way, but w/o a budget, it's not going to be pro. I'm operating under the assumption at the moment that I'll be alone, or close to it, so I can be problem solving to that end.

Dan Brown January 21st, 2004 03:39 PM

Yes, I am very, very impressed with the M012's. But, I am no audio expert. Mostly I used them for voice, but I did mess around with my acoustic guitar and the Oktavas. I think they are perfect. The sound is rich and full bodied. In fact, they need a bit of base roll-off sometimes. They are also very compact (20mm x 110mm) and light weight (maybe 4 oz)

On the down side, the M012's have no handling noise protection whatsoever. If you touch them, you will hear it. They also have no breath or wind protection. If air moves, you will hear it.

I bought mine at Guitar Center. The everyday price is $99 for the mic with cardioid capsule, and a 10 dB pad. It comes iin a cheesy plasticbox.

Dave Largent January 21st, 2004 05:09 PM

Marcia,
No, you do not *need* line of sight with the
Airline. That 50 foot indoor distance I mentioned
was with the person wearing the transmitter
in another room (that is, through a wall).
I use the MiniRover. I put the shotgun on the
cam's shoe and the light goes on the Rover.
The Airline receiver I attach to any flat surface on
the cam with padded (about 1/16" thick) double-
sided tape, with the size of the tape being about the size of a nickel.
The way I'd mic that situation with the kids
is have an Airline on each of the "speakers"
going into the left and right DVX XLRs.
Here's what I might do for the ME66 audio.
I don't know if you're aware of the new
iRiver ifp-500 series compact flash recorders. I've
posted previously about them. I almost
went with one, but I chose minidisc instead
because I liked having a hard copy right away
(i.e. the minidisc). The thing that's nice about
iRiver for a situation like yours is that the
recorder is about the size and weight of the
Airline receiver so you could attach it to
your cam the same as the receivers. You do have
the ME66 AA battery powering option, right?
Run a $10 XLR-to-miniplug cable from the
ME to the iRiver.
Questions?
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iFP-595T.asp

Dave Largent January 21st, 2004 06:28 PM

Dan,

Sounds like you're gonna need a lot more wind
protecion than just the foam ones.

How about something like this for your lav? Or is small
size essential (so as to hide the lav from the camera)?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=253751&is=REG

Marty Wein January 21st, 2004 07:02 PM

A smaller version of the windjammers are available.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...&shs=micro-cat

http://www.remoteaudio.com/pdfs/cats-all.pdf

Marcia Janine Galles January 22nd, 2004 01:08 PM

Dave, thought of another airline/wireless question that will really show off my ignorance...

When going to order at B&H I noticed that it lists the same product 6 times, with the only variation being, for ex. Ch U1/801.375 MHz, or Ch U2, U3, etc. If I want to buy 2, say two of the same model, or even 1 of the models we discussed and 1 of the models that comes with the handheld option, do I need to get both with the same channel designation or do they need to be different (one Ch U1 and the other Ch U2) to use them at the same time?

Barry Rivadue January 22nd, 2004 01:39 PM

(from the bleachers) Dave! Over here!

With the imminent arrival of the new Senn G2s, how would that work with the iRiver ifp-500 you mentioned? I have a DVX100 too, mostly used with ME66/64 capsules.

Decisions, decisions.

Marcia Janine Galles January 22nd, 2004 02:06 PM

Barry, you crack me up. Question about your ME 64. I'm looking at it to use for indoor interviews, keeping the 66 more for outdoor work or larger rooms. Seems like you were happy with your 64 on a post some time back. You still happy with it?

I don't like how the 66 sounds in some indoor settings, like a kitchen table interview and rooms without much carpeting, curtains, etc., like a classroom. Got horrible sound with it in a classroom, actually. And since I already have the power module, my thinking is that while there are a lot of other options out there, the 64 just seems like the best (maybe not?) and most economical (probably) way to go. Comments? (It's OK to come down off the bleachers now...)

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 02:13 PM

Marcia,
They need to be different. Each transmitter needs
its own receiver. And the systems need to be on
seperate channels. I don't know that it matters,
but if I were getting two systems, I'd have the
channels seperated as much as possible (i.e. U1 and
U6 together).
By the "handheld option" are you referring to the
plug-in transmitter. I have that also. Tried it with
a dynamic handheld. Gives same range and
performance as the bodypack transmitter.
Make sure to read the manual regarding the
plug-in as there is a way to adjust the sensitivity
of this transmitter also, which is not real obvious.
I just set it to max sensitivity, myself.
For your planned usage, what about getting three
systems? Two lavs for the speakers, and a plug-in
attached to an omnidirectional handheld mic
for the kids to pass around?

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 02:17 PM

Barry,
I didn't quite get your question. Are you wondering
about using a G2 with an iRiver? Or how
were you considering using the iRiver?
And about your Senns, I have an ME64 myself.
What differences do you notice between the
64 and the 66?

Barry Rivadue January 22nd, 2004 03:20 PM

Of course keep in mind I am speaking from a generally ignorant perspective, despite my growing collection of sparkling toys:

Dave: Put it this way, I do alot of interviewing in people's houses, and so far the ME66 has done a decent enough job in that I don't find much to fault (I have it on a boom stand). But the idea of a lav wireless sounds very good because I also like to walk around a person's house as they speak, and if the subject walks far afield, well, wireless looks increasingly attractive an option. I imagine a G2 (300 model) would be good, but I'm a bit fuzzy how an i River could work with it, though I assume ease of portability might have something to do with it. By the way, I too have been monitoring all posts on the Octava 012s, but figure a wireless setup might be a more versatile option first, before considering another boom microphone.

Marcia-- I have used the ME64 sparingly so far, indoors, and other than it getting a bit overwhelmed by a very loud band once (however, I was whipping the DVX100 around mercilessly, and I had the ME64 mounted on-camera), it seems perfectly ok--though I haven't used it enough to compare it to the ME66, which I use more often as a one-to-one interview microphone). I also am filing away all info on the Octava, though I read it's very sensitive to noise. Which is why I'm now also following further findings on T.H.E microphones. I'd like to build up the audio equivalent of an artist's oil paint box! Different sounds, different brushes. ;)

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 03:59 PM

Barry,
I thought the Senn 100 and 500 systems were more
for camera mounting than the 300.
I only suggested the iRiver to Marcia because she
wanted a way to run three mics at once, so the
iRiver would handle the "overflow" seeing as
her two DVX XLRs would be taken.
You could plug the G2 into the iRiver, I would
think, but in your situation why not record direct
to tape so you don't have to sync sound later.
One possible area of concern with going
from G2 to iRiver is that the iRiver does provide
a few volts of "plug in power" at the mic input
for running electret condenser mics. Now,
with powered mics such as the Senn MEs,
you can get an XLR-to-3.5mm mini that has a
"voltage blocking capacitor" in the line to
prevent hum. I would imagine a company
like Trew audio could make a cable with a
capacitor so that the G2 could go into the
iRiver, without the hum.
I have also run into distortion when using the
ME64 around loud bands, but I found out
that it was the camera's mic preamp that
was being overwhelmed, rather than
the mic capsule. Use of an inline attenuator
takes care of the problem.

Barry Rivadue January 22nd, 2004 05:24 PM

Thanks for the input, Dave--now I have a possibly redundant question. For a basic, one-man setup, would you recommend the Senn 100 Evolution, or now the G2 100, as the best intro into the world of wireless? All I'm looking for is some mobile freedom with my DVX100 when a subject wanders in or outdoors and I don't have to worry about depending on a shotgun's reach. I assume the 500 would be a bit of overkill.

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 05:51 PM

Generally, Barry, I would say the G2, but with one
consideration. Who are your subjects? One of the
reasons I kept the Airline is for if I want to put a lav
on a woman or child. The Airline is much smaller and
lighter in weight than the G2. With a guy, you'd
normally clip the G2 transmitter to the belt,
or if he's wearing a sport coat, in the inside
pocket of the coat. Will your subjects be women
wearing dresses/lblouses? Is it important that
the transmitter is more concealed? A woman
with long hair could wear the Airline transmitter
clipped to the top of her blouse in the back,
under her hair. The G2 would probably be too
big and heavy for this. If a woman or kid had
a front T-shirt pocket, you could just slip the Airline
in there, whereas the G2 would tend to pull the
shirt down at the pocket due to the weight, and
create more of a buldge.

Barry Rivadue January 22nd, 2004 07:45 PM

Excellent point, since many of my subjects are women. Thanks--I will now go to a shadowy corner and mull things over.

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 07:52 PM

Barry,
What's the greatest distance that your subjects
will be from you? Perhaps the Airline is the
right thing for you.

Law Tyler January 22nd, 2004 07:52 PM

Samson Airline Micro.

Be aware, the power in this series is barely sufficient. Anything beyond 3 or 4 feet will be too soft to be made "normal", w/o hissing.

I got tons of these babies.

I have been wondering why couldn't we do cheap production by having all the characters wear one of these combo mic-transmitter. It is so small. If it was Star Trek, then it could be explain (i.e. their visual presence) as their communicators.

Just a mixer, re-transmit to the cameras. No boom pole, no soundman, no hanging mic. Simple.

Now, I need a large warehouse, some hot lights, some furnitures, a bunch of comedians-wannabees who will work for free...

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 08:03 PM

Law,
I really don't understand your post and your references to comedians, et cetera. I haven't noticed any problems with the Airline. Everyone else seems to think it works great.

Dan Brown January 22nd, 2004 09:21 PM

Hi Law:

I'm in the DFW area. If you're unhappy with the Samsons, would you consider selling me 2-3 of them?

Dave Largent January 22nd, 2004 10:32 PM

You'd think if he's got so many of the systems and
he's so unhappy with them he'd be glad to unload
a few. Dan, let us know how many you pick up
from Law.

Barry Rivadue January 23rd, 2004 08:40 AM

Dave--to really make wireless worth the leap I'd like the option of having a confident range of up to 25 feet if necessary, though 15 feet would be the most likely limit.

Dave Largent January 23rd, 2004 12:53 PM

Barry,
Like I've said, I've used it at 50 feet, with the speaker in another room.

Barry Rivadue January 23rd, 2004 01:44 PM

Well, that's really excellent by my standards. :D

Marcia Janine Galles January 24th, 2004 11:02 AM

Hi again, Dave. Have an iRiver question which you mentioned earlier in this thread. I went to their website and it seems to tout it as more of a player, as opposed to a recorder, almost like the iPod, so while I like the price, would it be audio of the same quality as say the Marantz PMD 670? The latter is marketed as true DAT quality audio. Also, whereas the PMD uses removeable compact flash cards (which has its positives and negatives in my book... had a compact flash card failure last year with my Canon, so I don't trust them 100%) it appears the iRiver uses strictly internal storage. I could have misunderstood what I read, but assuming I didn't, how much, how long do you think I could record with the iRiver if it's only internal, and at what quality of audio? Again, the Marantz gives you a variety of options as to what kinds of files you record, changing significantly the amount of space taken up. Then again, the Marantz is a whole lot more $$.

Colin Rowe January 27th, 2004 05:36 PM

Check out the AKG PR40, Divesity, Wireless Receiver. it is available with snap on transmitter or with MicroPen lavalier for about $269 or £204 my side of the pond. I have placed a posting asking if any body has any practical experience of this set up. I think at the price I am going to try it. Check it out here. http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,15,id,287,pid,287,_language,EN.html


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