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-   -   pro sound on a trv19? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/25999-pro-sound-trv19.html)

Alfred Okocha May 14th, 2004 04:55 PM

pro sound on a trv19?
 
On a project that has to be recoreded on a physically small cam (like the trv19..the one I have..) is it possible to connect a lapela mic AND a boom mic on seperate tracks? Or is it better to record on DAT and put it together later?

Or how would you do it?

Thanks.

Matt Gettemeier May 14th, 2004 04:59 PM

In that cam for outright sound quality DAT would be better, but you could get reasonable sound by using a Beachtek DXA6 and then you could run two seperate channels and be able to supply phantom to either (or both) mic(s) as needed.

The Beachtek is $250... but worth it.

(I thought about getting a trv19/22 for a "danger-cam"... they seem like a good value for the price.)

Bryan Beasleigh May 14th, 2004 07:33 PM

I've recorded using my TRV20 and it has far better sound than the (unmodified) VX2K (not hard to beat).

If you'll be staying with consumer cameras right up to prosumer with 1/8 stereo input, I'd recomend the DXA8. It's somewhere around $360 but it adds preamps, limiters and phantom in a camera mounted package.

Alfred Okocha May 15th, 2004 05:38 AM

Thanks both of you. I have never used the cam for anything "serious" before, so it's good to know there's a away around DAT.
I'll look in to both of them.

Thanks.

Frank Granovski May 15th, 2004 01:29 PM

Quote:

I've recorded using my TRV20 and it has far better sound than the (unmodified) VX2K
That bad, huh? Yes, actually I noticed that the VX2000 is poor compared with my MX300. Funny how Sony screwed up so badly with the VX2000/PD150's audio. Has the VX2100's audio been improved?

Bryan Beasleigh May 15th, 2004 07:37 PM

The VX2K audio isn't obvious, total crap, it kinda wears. some people are quite happy with it. Iwas for almost a whole year ;-)

Frank Granovski May 15th, 2004 07:49 PM

I've heard VX2 playback, via a Sony deck and headphones. It sounded somewhere between tinny and harsh.

Bryan Beasleigh May 15th, 2004 08:42 PM

It shouldn't have, that would have depended on the mic, the setup and of course the headphones. Not to say the VX2K is horendous but the smaller cams like the TRV20 and i suspect the 19 are capable damn decent audio. Of course there's the old adage "cr@p in cr@p out". a reasonably good mic is necessary. Some times reasonably good can be reasonably priced.

Frank Granovski May 15th, 2004 10:09 PM

That footage was taken with the built-in mic, of a bunch of people playing drums in a park. I didn't shoot it, just watched and listened to the play-back. Maybe something's wrong with his VX2000? It did hit the cement once. Luckily he had a big lens hood on it (it landed on the hood/lens). Ouch.

Richard Brennan May 18th, 2004 12:33 AM

Re: pro sound on a trv19?
 
<<<-- Originally posted by Alfred Okocha : Or is it better to record on DAT and put it together later? -->>>

First of all, it goes without saying (but I'm going to say it anyway) the best thing you can do to get "professional" sound is to put a decent mic close to the actor (or whoever your "talent" is.) So the issue then becomes how to get this wonderful sound into your production.

You have some other choices besides recording in camera or using DAT. MD recorders are MUCH less expensive than DAT and can be used in the same way - record quality sound and then sync later.

My personal favorite, however, is to record multiple tracks to my laptop for later mixing and enhancement in the studio. In order to do that I use an audio interface. that plugs into my firewire port I use an Edirol FA-101 with ten mic inputs, but if you only need two inputs you can use the UA-5 USB Digital Audio Capture (which costs about $260.) Then you need audio software that let you record and mix your tracks. Vegas has this already. I also use Cakewalk Sonar. Cakewalk also makes a less expensive product, their Home Studio 2004 that sells for about $130.

Just a few more ideas to throw into the mix.

Frank Granovski May 18th, 2004 12:46 AM

All that for a Sony 1-chip TRV19? :-))

Richard Brennan May 18th, 2004 10:15 AM

Sure. But only if you want good sound. I know you are just being flip, but think about it: If you figure sound is 50% of the presentation - take the same $500 or so that you spent on the TRV19 and get a mic and a sound editing program you'll have what you need to record sound on your computer or laptop. Digital sound, no less. Record one trak at a time, then edit.

I think the real obstacle of most people isn't $$, but learning to think in terms of sound editing the way they think of video editing (i.e. the job isn't over once you've gotten the shot).

Bryan Beasleigh May 18th, 2004 10:31 PM

Richard
You can get "good" sound into a trv19. Good is relative to a persons tastes and needs. It's different strokes for different folks.

I did an expertiment, inputing an AT899 and a Sony ECM44 lav into a TREV 20 and the result was good sound. All that was needed was a little care and a XLR to mini cable. The audio I recorded would have impressed most viewers as highly acceptable.

If the person doesn't own a laptop you've just upped the ante. By the sounds of it you have an apple, which most do not have. If he does record on a secondary device he now has to sync. Even with the rig you describe you can get crappy audio

There are all levels of pro and amateur on this site.

Dave Largent May 18th, 2004 10:59 PM

I had a Sony TR101 Hi8 analog camera that
had better sound than the VX -- more life-like,
with higher sensitivity to boot.

Frank Granovski May 19th, 2004 12:13 AM

Some of those old cams had great audio, some did not. Today, it's much the same. Thankfully, the VX and PD cams can get their audio fixed. Ask Bryan about it. :-))

Dave Largent May 19th, 2004 12:39 AM

Actually, I'm surprised to see Bryan hasn't been
more negative about the "unfixed" VX audio
than he has been. Is he gettin' soft?
Truth is, the VX' unfixed audio is fine for the
vast majority of customers' expectations
of "professional audio" -- with a decent mic.
The 170 does have noticably less
hiss than the 2000, but I haven't compared
the 2000 to the 2100, although they say
a 6dB improvement, I believe.

Frank Granovski May 19th, 2004 01:40 AM

He thought the audio was good with his Beachtek, Senn ME66 and keeping the gain down, but I guess he decided to go even better when that BBC fix became available in North America. We really should be asking him about why he went for the big leap and spending spree. Some people just want the best and are willing to pay for it, I guess.

Dave Largent May 19th, 2004 02:53 AM

Well, the 2000 does hiss up pretty quickly, but that's
not hard to take out in post.
Actually, I had looked into the BBC fix when
I first acquired the VX, but didn't want to void
the warranty.
I was a bit disconcerted to find, after buying a
preamp for the 2000, that the line in is really no
better than the mic in, when you look at S/N.
A couple of tech looks at the 2000 (including the one that was done by the
BBC for their "fix") have shown that the best S/N
is found at 5-6 notches down from the mid-
point.

Bryan Beasleigh May 19th, 2004 06:15 AM

The audio with the "Winterized" Vx2000 is better than any of the DV cameras. It's a whole new ball game.

Dave Largent May 19th, 2004 11:37 AM

So, Bryan, what did you come up with as the
best way to tote around the pre w/your
modded VX?
I'd be tempted to have the pre drilled, or look at the
PSC Mjr, which, from what I can tell from the
specs, offers 70dB of gain.
One thing I don't like about the PSC is that the
limiter is not adjustable.

http://www.raycom.co.uk/psc/mjr2.html

Bryan Beasleigh May 19th, 2004 11:18 PM

I think the PSC Mjr has been discontinued.

So far as the mixer for my VX2000, I've carried it in the Portabrace case, If I'm tripod mounted I just sling the case on the tripod.

I am looking at some sort of bracket but it won't matter much for a while, I can't walk steady enough to carry a camera.

Dave Largent May 20th, 2004 01:58 AM

My girl just told me her cousin just got two
new knees and he said he was glad he
did it. And he ended up taller than he
was prior to the operations, and he's doing
real well. The cousin is 51.
I hear titanium was used. Titanium is
lighter than aluminum, but stronger,
I think.

Bryan Beasleigh May 20th, 2004 10:21 AM

Alfred
I'd be happy to email you 2 samples I recorded on the TRV20. they were done quickly but it will give you some idea.

The samples are of an AT899 and a Sony ECM44 lav.

Dave
They're doing a half knee, the inside (medial) of both is bone on bone. 75 minutes of rough carpentry and they're done. I'll be awake, so maybe they'll let me tape it ;-) The hardware is titanium.

Alfred Okocha May 20th, 2004 04:44 PM

Hi guys!

I've been working alot and haven't really had time to check what's going on here.. Lots of opinions! Great! I just saw your mail Bryan, (Beaser?) and I'd be happy to check your audio files out!
I'm no audiofile (?) though so don't expect an expert comment. =)

Thanks alot.

Chris Gray July 9th, 2004 05:39 PM

Sorry to revive a six-week-old thread, but it hits the topic I need to get advice on.

I have a TRV80 with Azden SGM-X miniplug shotgun. The mic seems decent enough, but on moderately loud sounds there is distortion, likely from the TRV80's automatic levels being overloaded. I looked at the Beachtek DXA-8 but it is designed for camcorders with manual audio level control, which the TRV80 doesn't have.

Would the DXA-8 work to reduce or eliminate clipping anyway, or do I need to record into DAT or MiniDisc?

Dave Largent July 9th, 2004 06:44 PM

Yes, it could help.
Why do you want that model rather than one of Beachtek's
cheaper ones?

Matt Gettemeier July 10th, 2004 07:18 AM

I'm assuming you thought the DXA8 would control clipping 'cause it has active circuits and gain?

The problem is that a cam with automatic gain control will still turn the gain up when it doesn't hear anything... then something loud happens and the cam is caught off guard and the internal gain is too high... = distortion.

It's also possible that you're getting some distortion from the cam or mic (or both) anyway. It would be easier to judge what's happening with a sound clip. With the gear you're using at the moment it would be hard to control widely varying sound levels... Hell, it's hard enought to contol that with a $5K rig!


Since I missed this thread when people were asking about Beas and his uber-VX2000... I can personally vouch for the Greg Winter mod. Beas and I have swapped sound files for a while and when he started getting REALLY pricey mics we both got hyper-critical of the sound chain. One day he emailed a clip and asked me to give an opinion on hiss... I was scared to tell him how much I heard... Then he told me he'd sent his cam to Greg... A couple weeks later he sent new clips and now his cam has THE BEST audio section available. Period. I'm the first to mention the DVX's audio section... but it's an easy second place to what Beas gets out of the VX2000 now. Believe me, the price of that mod was a bargain for how it transformed the VX2000 into a state-of-the-art capture device.

Dave Largent July 10th, 2004 09:46 AM

Does the DXA8 provide attenuation?

Matt Gettemeier July 10th, 2004 10:11 AM

YES... click here!

Bryan Beasleigh July 11th, 2004 12:13 AM

DVX-8 review

Chris Gray July 11th, 2004 08:14 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Largent : Yes, it could help.
Why do you want that model rather than one of Beachtek's
cheaper ones? -->>>

Dave, can you elaborate? Do you just reduce the input signal, and that's it?

I wasn't aware of the cheaper models, I'm sure they'd be more appropriate.

Bryan Beasleigh July 11th, 2004 02:01 PM

The DXA-8 has attenuation and gain but it also has phantom and limiters. The phantom will open you up yto a whole new world of microphones and the limiters will save your butt by compressing the input so your camera audio doesn't overload..

Basically the standard unit is about $170, add the phantom for $270 and the whole ball of wax for $370 (48 volt phantom, preamp and limiters. A lot of basic mixers don't offer full 48 volt phantom.


Beach Tek will be coming out with a line level mixer in the very near future.


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