Confused on multiple camera purchase
 

Hi,

While I am not new to consumer cameras, I am new to the prosumer cameras. I need two cameras for recording concerts where sound is extremely important. This is ALL I will ever be using the cameras for. I have read through these forums and am confused on which camera (without being taken apart and modified) has better sound as far as the PD 170, VX2100 or PDX10. Does the VX2100 have better sound with the Beach Tek DX8A and ME66k6 than the PD 170 with it's onboard shotgun microphone or with the ME66K6 hooked up to the XLR conectors? Is there any difference in sound quality between the VX2100 with Beachtek DXA8/ ME66K6 and the PD170/PDX10 with ME66K6 microphones? I know there is a problem with the VX2100 that requires that amplified microphones be hooked up so that the gain on the camera does not exceed 50 percent. I am not sure if this problem exists on the PD170 and PDX10 and also not sure if the Beachtek DXA8 amplifies the signal even more so that the camera gain can be turned down even more than what the PD170 with no Beachtek DXA8 could do.


Also, does the PDX10 have the same audio as the PD170. If so I could use this as a secondary camera and use the 16 bit mono from both cameras to convert to stereo on my computer in post production. I am not concerned with the poor low light of the PDX10 because I must deal with the other extreme and that being extremely harsh bright stage lights that my old Sony digital 8 camera with no manual white balance could not handle.

I was looking at the cost point and it looks like I could get 2 VX2100's for 4800 before the beachtek and microphones. However, if the sound is good on both the PD170 and PDX10, I can get those for 1850 + 3200 = 5050 dollars. If I need two ME66K6, I will need to add an addional 800 to get two ME66K6 Microphones and power supplies. I have thought about getting a Stereo microphone but with two mono's from two seperate camera's I imagine it would not be too difficult to convert it to stereo in post production. I have not been able to find any stereo microphones that match up the the ME66's in specs.

And so here are my options:

2 VX2100's with two Beach Tek DXA8's and two ME66/K6's

1 PD170 with or without ME66/K6 (not sure of the quality of on camera microphones)

1 PDX10 with or without ME66/K6

Finally, I am assuming that shotgun's do not have to be hooked up to the camera as I do not want on board microphones when I can have the microphones placed on a stand next to the musicians.

If you're this concerned for the audio quality, and there is obviously a mix console in this scenario, I'd more look to recording with a DAT or MDHiD before I'd use the camera. Quality will be better in the end, although it will mean more work in post.
ME 66 or AT 897 will provide great quality. Even though the ME is hotter, the sound of the 897 is smoother. You've got a Beachtek in there to boost the level if necessary, or attenuate if necessary. The PD 170 has newer/cleaner pre's, and the audio I've heard come from it to our studio has been quite good, definitely not noisy like it's predecessor. I don't own this camera though, only have rec'd tapes from it.
Don't know anything at all about the PDX10, sorry.

I have both a VX-2000 and PDX-10 and use them to tape our live productions. I think the audio quality is noticeably better on the PDX-10 vs the VX-2000 with a beachtek box. The mono mike that comes with the PDX-10 is the same as the mike supplied with the PD-150 (and probably PD-170?). I have actually been pleasantly surprised with its quality for this sort of thing. I normally use a feed from our house sound board (which is used for backstage monitor purposes, not sound reinforcement) on ch 1 and the on-camera mike on ch 2. The on-camera mike track compares very favorably to the track from the house board. I've also found that the auto level setting works very well on the PDX-10 and yields pretty natural results while preventing and unusually loud sections of music from creating distortion. I generally set the on-camera mike for manual level and put the feed from the house board on auto.

Sorry, I can't really help with your other questions since I haven't used a VX-2100 or PD-170. But I think Douglas also makes a good point about using an external recorder if sound is "extremely important". In my case we are just shooting archival video so I find the camera sound to be OK (we do separate audio recordings for broadcast).

I don't think I'd use a shotgun in this situation because they are very directional and subject to overloads. If I could ignore costs, I'd choose a pair of nice cardiods.

But most importantly, I'd hire a pro sound guy and let him worry about the microphones and the mix. Receiving the event sound track on a CD or two is so much more relaxing than worrying about both the video and the sound together. And the results of him/her dribbling microphones across the stage in exactly the right places (and the right microphones) and then mixing the sound correctly is phenomenally better than what we video guys normally do.

Videographers probably don't hire pro sound help often enough, right, Douglass?

Just use the on-camera microphones to pick up room tone, act as a synch track and be a last-ditch backup.

Based on reports from PDX-10 owners, I'd expect the high-contrast lighting to cause that camera some problems. Much more than the PD-170 will do.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : Based on reports from PDX-10 owners, I'd expect the high-contrast lighting to cause that camera some problems. Much more than the PD-170 will do. -->>>

What kind of problems? High contrast is of course a general problem for DV, but I have not observed any problems specific to the PDX-10 while shooting stage shows. In fact, I use it exclusively for this nowadays. The high quality 16:9 works great for stage shows. Now if I didn't want to shoot in 16:9 I would probably favor the VX-2000 however.

The only time I have problems is in very dark scenes where I have to shoot with more than a +12 dB gain boost, but these are relatively rare. Perhaps you're refering to the much-discussed vertical smear problem on the PDX-10? This has never been an issue for me while shooting stage shows at 1/60 sec shutter speed, even when there is an exposed light in the frame.

Thanks for all the replies on this. I may try to hook up at least one of the cameras into the sound board directly using the XLR connections, but want a good microphone backup in case somethhing goes wrong. Not sure what kind of output connectors proffesional sound boards use such as 3F or 5F but should try to find that out before the tour starts so I can get the right kind of XLR cable and or Y conncectors if needed. I do not have the budget starting out to get a DAT machine or even a field mixer and am worried about audio video sync problems by letting them take care of the sound themselves.

"I don't think I'd use a shotgun in this situation because they are very directional and subject to overloads. If I could ignore costs, I'd choose a pair of nice cardiods."

Do you have any suggestions for a reasonably priced 200-500 non shotgun microphone. I could buy two of these and set one up close to the left on stage speaker and the other close to the right on stage speaker for backup purposes to the one going directly into the soundboard. I am no microphone expert, but would the the non shotgun cardiods you speak of be listed as handheld, studio or in some other catagory at B&H Photo?

I am thinking that overpriced Sennheiser mikes might be overkill for backup purposes and the limiatations of the sound on all of the above cameras and am curious if the cheaper Audio-Technica or AKG make any good non shotgun mikes as most of the talk on them is for their shotgun one's.

Any suggestions for good non shotgun mono or even stereo microphones would be greatly appreciated.

I may go with a PD170/VX2100 with Beachtek combo for my video shots as I am not going to be doing any wide screen shots. Of course I am a one man show and after the secondary camera is set up correctly with white balance etc, I will not be controlling it and will be spending all of my time on the PD170. I am assuming that the VX2100 handles auto focusing alright as I would hate to manually focus it and then have it go out of focus when I am not there to correct it. The concerts I will be filming do not have changing lighting at all as most of them have very bright on stage lights shining down on each person in the group that does not change throughout the concert.

Also, I am assuming that you meant a good cardiod that has amplified sound so that the gain can be turned down on the cameras. Most of the non shotgun microphones that I looked at were not amplified and thus would not work as well with the above cameras.

Boyd,

Early on the cameras were reported as having extraordiarily poor response to light sources against a dark background. Heavy streaking was reported. I don't read the PDX-10 forum so I don't know if that was an early batch or a consistent design problem.

Dan,

I would consider any cardiod to be OK but I'd probably use my Shure 81 (or a pair) as it is plenty sensitive. Directly in front of a speaker, I'd use my Beta58 although the 81 with it's built-in attenuator would handle the spl very nicely. The 81 goes for around $350 I think and does require phantom power. The Beta58 is about $150 and is a Dynamic microphone.

AT makes a lot of good microphones that are not shotguns. They have a number of stereo microphones that receive good reports.

Do understand that you can probably hire a pro sound person for less than the cost of two SM81s and that person could feed your camcorders directly. Just a suggestion but since you said that sound 'is extremely important,' it is unlikely you are going to get the sound you want with a limited equipment budget and little prior experience.

Cameras don't go out of focus on their own. If you are going to leave it on a fixed shot, do not use autofocus. Set the focus ( as well as exposure and white balance) and it will stay. A 2100 at full or near wide really doesn't require focusing anyway so if you focus it on the stage at full zoom and then pull wide, it will be just fine.

Mike: some people seem to have this problem, but I really have not personally. From what I understand one of the big culprits is leaving it set for full auto mode under bright conditions which cause the camera to use high shutter speeds. If you shoot manual at 1/60 sec there isn't much problem.

Here's a little clip that shows the smear in action. But this was what I'd call an extreme situation where I shot directly into the sun and also used a high shutter speed. Notice that the camera handles it ok until the sun drops just a bit below the clouds.

Sorry... this is getting off-topic for the audio forum...

mike,

Due to an article I read on another thread, I am almost conviced now to go with a Rode NT-4 stereo microphone.

I am also convinced to go with a DAT recorder instead of buying a high quality secondary camera. I would rather have good sound and just go with my 10 year old digital 8 camera for my secondary camera (possibly with a wide angle lense hooked up to it)

Any suggestions on a good DAT machine that will take the XLR connection from the NT-4 and work well with a PD170 and will also not run me 10,000 dollars. I am looking for one that will not be overkill for the Rode NT-4 or two mono Shure 81s. The specs on the Shure 88 don't look to great on signal to noise.


Dan

Also, I might try to rent a secondary camera like the VX2100 or PD170 for the nights of the concerts instead of buying one.

Any one got any good suggestions on a good XLR DAT machine would be greatly appreciated as I know nothing about them at all.

thanks in advance,
Dan

You might want to get one VX2000 "Winterized". The Audio mod whereby the camera pres are bypassed and line level is fed directly into the analog to digital converters. With a mix pre, you won't get any better sound on any camera. It's pretty well DAT quality. I had this mod done and it's moved my audio into a totally new realm.

Have you listened to the before and after clips on wav files?

http://www.dvfreelancer.com/articles/vx2000.html

I have read that the PD170 has better sound than the VX2000.

I am thinking now about getting a mix pre amp and going with either two 81's or the NT-4 stereo microphone.

Does anyone know if the best mix preamp to go with this combination might be the Shure FP24?

I have also been looking into the Marantz PMD670 recorder or the TASCAM DA-P1 as an alternate to the mix pre amp but am worried about post production audio sync problems and think that a good microphone and mix preamp might be a better option for the better sound quality of the PD170.

Might I get sastisfactory results with a good mix preamp like the Shure FP24 going directly into the PD170 unmodified.

Also, since I am just in the process of getting the PD170 I am a little concerned about voiding the warrenty on it by getting the mod done to it until after the warrenty runs out next year.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Melius : I have read that the PD170 has better sound than the VX2000.->>>>

Yes that's true in the stock form

If you want the best sound possible, it's the modification. This is better sound than any DV camera on the market, period. Do yourself a favour and read the link I left. It's not going to hurt you to listen to the before and after or read the text. The PD150/170 is actually harder to modify than the VX2000/2100.


<<<-I have also been looking into the Marantz PMD670 recorder or the TASCAM DA-P1 as an alternate to the mix pre amp-->>>
While the PMD670 will record much better sound than the camera, the preamp isn't the best. I use a mix pre or 302 into the line feed of the PMD 670. This is being picky but it depends on how picky you are.

<<<--Might I get sastisfactory results with a good mix preamp like the Shure FP24 going directly into the PD170 unmodified. -->>> The Shure FP24 is the Mix Pre. Shure market it under their own name. Yes the results going through the Mix Pre will be OK. The best of that situation is a line level input.

Do a search in dv.com on the audio forum.

Turn on the water!
 

Dan, you need to take a cold shower, quick. You are getting yourself into a situation where you will be spending way over five thousand dollars, and shooting with gear you have no experience using. This is a recipe for financial and professional disaster. Interestingly, no one has asked you what sort of music you will be recording. Anything beyond a small acoustic instrumental group is going to bury someone with no experience. I don't care how many threads you have been reading. Here are a couple of reactions to your comments:

"I need two cameras for recording concerts where sound is extremely important. This is ALL I will ever be using the cameras for."

Why spend this kind of money if this is ALL you will ever use the cameras for? What kind of financial sense does this make? Are you made of money? Is the group giving you the cash to buy the gear? Do you realize how much additional money you need for all the gear to go with the two cameras? Think tripods, batteries, carrying cases, ad nausem. Did you price the Rode microphone?

" If I need two ME66K6, I will need to add an addional 800 to get two ME66K6 Microphones and power supplies. I have thought about getting a Stereo microphone but with two mono's from two seperate camera's I imagine it would not be too difficult to convert it to stereo in post production."

As has been pointed out, these are not the right mics to record music. Sure, you could point two ME66's at the stage, record mono individually, and create a faux stereo in post, but don't expect excellent audo. Where will you place the mics? Where will you place the cameras? Whoops, cables running all over the venue. And while we are at it, you also should be recording audience reaction somewhere. Again, as has been said, you should absolutely be looking to the house mixer to provide you with a line feed for one of the cameras. If this production is good enough to hire a house mixer, then you should take advantage of this opportunity. Unlike you, he isn't fumbling with focus and framing, and is concentrating on the sound of the mix, which will be infinitely better than anything you can do under these circumstances. If something goes wrong with his mix, you are in the dumper, but there is no way you can get a better sound from indiviually miced instruments with a couple mics fed into your cameras. Get to know the mixer, and become his new, best friend. Find out how to set your camera's audio level to match his line level. And BTW, he probably has one or two mics you could use, if you're nice to him.

"Of course I am a one man show and after the secondary camera is set up correctly with white balance etc, I will not be controlling it and will be spending all of my time on the PD170. I am assuming that the VX2100 handles auto focusing alright as I would hate to manually focus it and then have it go out of focus when I am not there to correct it."

Well, it's easier to plug in the lines from the mixer to the PD170, with its professional XLR connectors. And using the VX2100 to shoot with is fine, since visually it is identical to the PD170. If there is no one operating the second camera, then set focus manually and leave it locked. Same with iris and white balance, and shutter speed. But while we are on the subject, a locked off wide shot of the group, and a few various shots from your camera, won't make for a great concert video. Hopefully you can shoot from different positions over a number of nights to give you some variety in editing. Course, that means the same program each night.

"Also, since I am just in the process of getting the PD170 I am a little concerned about voiding the warrenty on it by getting the mod done to it until after the warrenty runs out next year."

You are correct in assuming you will void the warranty. So, if something goes wrong with the camera, unrelated to the audio fix, Sony will very likely refuse to correct your problem because of the "tampering." I find it pretty amazing that you are talking about spending money for add-ons when you haven't even heard the sound out of the camera yet. Something about a "cart before the horse."

Dan, I can appreciate your excitement about doing this project, but I cannot urge you strongly enough to proceed with caution. There is a world of difference between reading about all this on the internet, and actually doing it under the pressures of a live performance. There is so much involved, that we have barely scratched the surface. Send along more information about what kind of a concert this is, whether or not there will be a mixer for the house (Let him record it on DAT!), will you be shooting multiple nights. Your description of the lighting sends up a red flag to me. Like to hear more about those "hot lights" pointing straight down on the performers. This could be an issue. So much to think about.

Since you apparently have purchased the PD170, I have a final word: RENT Rent a second camera, rent mics, rent a DAT. All this stuff is outrageously expensive to buy, but reasonable to rent. Usually, you can pay for two or three days rental, and use the gear for a week. Might even find a better deal from a private owner who bought the gear for one job, and now it sits on a shelf. Don't forget cables for the mics. (But please, use the mixer)

Good luck!

Ok I read the article and listened to the clips and was impressed.

I may just order two VX2100's and get the Sound Devices MixPre's and send one of the cameras in for the mod. I believe you are wrong that the Sound Devices premix and the Sure FP24 are the same. I looked at the specs very carefully and the FP24 does not have XRL Stereo ouputs according to BH photo. Of course this would not matter using the line inputs with the mod. I would not have to worry about the sound on the second camera and could leave it unmodified.

Do you know how long of a waiting time there is to get the mod done as I will need the camera at the latest by July 24th. I could train myself with the unmodifed camera while I am waiting.

Also, do you know if the Rode Nt-4 works well with the Sound Devices Mix Pre. I am still a little unsure on weather to get two 81's or one Nt-4 for recording the concerts.

You state that you also use the PMD670 hooked up to the mix Pre. Is this for backup purposes? How does the sound compare with the track recorded this way and with the sound recorded on to the DV tape from the VX2000 modified?

Finally, I assume that I would not need the Beach Tek DXA-8 with the mod since I am using the line ins of the camera and can wait for the next Beach Tek device that is being worked on. Am I correct in this?

Thanks for all your help Bryan.

Dan

Hi Wayne,

It is a two piece acoustic Christian group of a professional Christian musician by the name of Don Francisco who penned the song "He's Alive" that in the year 2000 made the top 10 Christian songs of the millennium. I will be traveling with them for several months recording video for the web and for DVD authoring of which I already have Adobe Premier, Adobe After Effects, and several DVD authoring programs and have made quite a few DVD projects using Reel DVD and other DVD authoring programs.

I also am on salary by them for working on their web site in the mp3 and video format.

No I have not yet purchased a camera. I am the type of person that has to get all things figured out before I make a big purchase like this as I am still not sure on the PD 170 or the VX2100. There will be a mixer sound board at the concerts but do not know of the connections and if there will be any open ones as I live on the other side of the country from them and do not know much about proffesional sound boards.

Dan
Why not see if you can find a gently used VX2000 and have the mod done

The FP24 is the Mix Pre. The only difference is the screened logo on the case. The Mix Pre is also usually cheaper. I own a mix pre and a 302 3 channel.

The PMD670is a nice unit and operates well on it's own but for some test clips I tried to go the extra mile and used a Sound devices Preamp into the PMD 670 and there was an improvement.

A stand alone mixer will usually be better than a recorder that incorporates a mixers features. A mix pre costs the same as a marantz PMD670

Email me at bbeasleighatrogers dotcom if you have any questions or need a particular test clip.

Just so we understand
The sony camera has a superb picture and excellent low light ability. The sound by itself is more than adequate for most users.

The sound can be improved by using an external preamp.

If you want DAT quality and are totally anal about your audio quality than the mod is for you.

Dan - if you have any questions regarding the modification please call me at 585-671-1050 daytime... It's my busy time of year with my day job so my modification time is limited - if you want me to do a camera, let me know by phone so we can schedule it ahead of time. I can also supply plenty of references. -Greg.

I'd like to point out that Greg is not really in business as a repair shop. He did some research and modified his own camera. He was then persuaded to share his ideas and skills.

There is more info at

http://www.dvfreelancer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=345#345

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