Just ordred (from B&H) a Sony UWP-C1 (62) True Diversity
 

Hi all,

I just ordered a Sony UWP-C1 (62) True Diversity wireless mic, so I'll let you know how it sounds with the HD10u.

If you're looking for a good UHF mic this one is a good deal right now at B&H. They have a $100 gift certificate with purchase of the UWP-C1!

Murph

Hi,

How much is the mic?

Mike

Total cost with shipping was $510.00, but that will include a $100.00 gift certificate...so, $410 total.

Good deal, I think.

Murph

good deal

Can you select frequencies? How many?

So that price includes the mic and diversity receiver? How big is the mike? Cardioid?

Mike

I don't want to answer because I'm not sure! All that tech info is on the B&H site.

All I know is that everywhere I looked people were talking about this particular wireless lav...and it was in my budget range. It was also UHF, and not VHF....so, it'll overall be a better lav then what I'm used to using (Azden).

Murph

sure, Sony knows how to make quality sound products, incl. mics

I'm going to move this to our audio section, but leave a link for others to access and continue the discussion.

heath

I have one of those kits. It has never let me down. Yes you can easily change frequencies and the manual includes a list of the right freqs. to use in some countries.

Do y'all find the true diveristy stuff to be more reliable than other single antennae UHF systems? I've been trying to hold out for the Senn. G2 kit but realize that it's not true diversity. You'd think a true diversity system would natuarally be more reliable, but I'm not certain.

Well, the Sony and the Senn tranmsitters both put out the
same power, but the Sony is diversity.
Check out this link where a guy tested both. The
Sony came out on top.
I do think the $400 price is a good value.

http://www.dfwmediagroup.com/mictest.html

I think the Sony looks like an excellent choice, but just to keep it fair I listened to those tests and read the page they're listed on and the guy never mentions frequencies or batteries... I'm sure he used 100% fresh batteries for his tests, don't ya' think?

Just so you know when a 9v battery gets drained down to about 7.5v it begins to adversely affect your wireless system... I have a bin of 9v batteries that I give to my friends as "almost new" because I only run fresh batteries in the wireless. That couple bucks will save you a headache sooner or later. When I listened to the tests I thought the Sennheiser sounded like one of my sets when it needs fresher batteries...

Also the point about frequencies is crucial... there can be RFI that interferes with one wireless set and not another... depending on frequency.

You can check the frequency blocks in your area by going to the Lectosonics site:

CLICK HERE TO SEE IT!

> Just so you know when a 9v battery gets drained
> down to about 7.5v

Wait... does not the Sony kit use AA's?

The new (G2) uses AA. The first series uses 9V.

I donno, the Sony's 60dB signal to noise ratio is pretty pitifull.

The Audio Technica is rated at 107dB, and the Senny at 117.

High noise floor has always been one of my cheif complaints about Sony wireless. That and their low ouptut power - typically their units were rated at 10 Watts. This transmitter is rated at 30, if you can believe it.

The AT is only rated at 10!
The AKG and Samson units are also in this range
of 10 or 15 rating.

I posted a link above to reference frequency "islands" in your city... while you're at the Lectrosonics site you should read up on wireless technology and what makes systems different from one another. If you want a free education on wireless... It'll take you less then an hour to read everything they have on their site... and within 10 minutes you'll know more about what makes a wireless system perform well or not so well.

Of course there's no beating your own real-world experience or the experience of professionals in your area... but people tend to claim that whatever system they're using is the best one for you. Myself included.

That's why I suggest you read the info on wireless on the Lectrosonics site. That will give you a handle on the truly meaningful specs of a wireless system and perhaps you can make a more educated decision.

If you peruse the archives you'll find that the Sennheiser systems have a lot of happy owners... I haven't read so much about the Sony... but that test link was interesting... although unscientific in that it didn't verify equal battery power and frequencies.

If you spend close to $500 on a wireless system you shouldn't have ANY dropouts or pops when you're within 40' of the receiver... unless you have a frequency conflict. (Which can come from a lot of sources.)

The AT-U100 is rated a 50mW max output power.

http://www.audiotechnica.com/guide/wireless/u100.html

A conservative 30 mW nominal output power is what they admit to.

Matt offers good advice. Educating yourself is always worth the investiment if you have the time.

I would add that reading only one manufacturer's information will lead you to beive (as Matt says) that their system is the best, so don't limit your reading to just Lectrosonsics. Other manufacturers sites have additional information that will either confirm, deny, or otherwise fill in missing information.

Shure, Audio Technica, Sennheiser, AKG, Zaxcom, etc. all have good wireless systems and information.

And a professional audio dealer will help you cut through the marketing hype and mis-information provide by some manufacturers.

Marty, 10 to 15 mW is what AT *admits* to, to my
understanding. Don't make me have to whip out
the PDF on you, now....: - )
(AT marketing department pushes it to the limit with
this system to try to get sales.)

Shoot, I was going to order anohter one today and it looks like the $100 gift certificate at B&H is now only $50!!

You snooze you lose I guess. Anyone know where I can get a great deal on another Sony UWP-C1?

Murph

Alright, you got me there. However, Ouput power is far from the most important spec of a wireless system.I have heard superior performace from a system with under 5mW.

I would still go with the AT or Senn over the Sony for the following specs (all in the pdf's):

S/N & Deviation
Sony - 60dB @+/-5kHz deviation
Senn 100-G2- 110dB @ +/-48kHz
AT - 107dB @ +/-30kHz deviation
(deviation is the rf bandwidth the audio uses. Wide bandwidth deviation has a lower noise factor)
(S/N caveat - The S/N figures quoted by all wireless maunfacturers except one use gated noise figures.)

Input level
Sony - mic input only
AT - mic or line level input
Senn - mic or line level

Distortion
Sony - Not even specified
AT - less than 1%
Senn - less than 0.9%

Marty

I picked up fresh batch of batteries from my local Home Depot the same day that I performed the test. However, I did change out the Sennheiser batteries in both the transmitter and the receiver after I noticed the drop outs in the first first test I ran. I also changed them out again when I ran the final test. Note also that the batteries I used at the wedding were but brand new too.

On the Frequencies issue:

I went through all of the channels and frequencies on the Sennheiser - trying to see if it was simply an interference issue. However, nothing I tried changed the results. As long as I was in straight line of site with the Sennheiser it was fine. It was when I started turning around in a circle and getting out of the line of site that it had problems.

Regards,
Kevin

<<<-- Originally posted by Matt Gettemeier : I think the Sony looks like an excellent choice, but just to keep it fair I listened to those tests and read the page they're listed on and the guy never mentions frequencies or batteries... I'm sure he used 100% fresh batteries for his tests, don't ya' think?

Just so you know when a 9v battery gets drained down to about 7.5v it begins to adversely affect your wireless system... I have a bin of 9v batteries that I give to my friends as "almost new" because I only run fresh batteries in the wireless. That couple bucks will save you a headache sooner or later. When I listened to the tests I thought the Sennheiser sounded like one of my sets when it needs fresher batteries...

Also the point about frequencies is crucial... there can be RFI that interferes with one wireless set and not another... depending on frequency.

You can check the frequency blocks in your area by going to the Lectosonics site:

CLICK HERE TO SEE IT! -->>>

Hi Kevin,

When you say you "went through all of the channels and frequencies on the Sennheiser", do you mean you tried each channel and they all gave the same result, or did you do something different?

Did you go through the channels on the receiver while looking at the RF indicator with the transmitters turned off? Did you see any indication of other traffic on those channels? And (I have to ask) do you know that the band this system is on has channels not used by local broadcasters?

Finally, when you compared the two systems, I'll assume that both transmitters were on. Were the frequencies selected so as not to interfere with each other by way of intermodulation?

Yes I went through all of the channels and frequencies. It obviously took some serious time.

Yes, I looked at the RF indicators - nothing indicated that I had any kind of interference on any combination I tried. Yet when I ran the test as soon as I went out of direct sight it would start dropping out.

Finally, when I tested only one system was on at a time. I didn't want to run the chance of them interfering with each other. And yes, I removed the batteries from the units that were not currently being tested.

I also tested other - a bit more professional - wireless systems that evening. The Sennheiser was the only one that I had a problem with. With the other professional units I was able to walk out the front door and up the street without a dropout. ;o)

Kevin

<<<-- Originally posted by Marty Atias : Hi Kevin,

When you say you "went through all of the channels and frequencies on the Sennheiser", do you mean you tried each channel and they all gave the same result, or did you do something different?

Did you go through the channels on the receiver while looking at the RF indicator with the transmitters turned off? Did you see any indication of other traffic on those channels? And (I have to ask) do you know that the band this system is on has channels not used by local broadcasters?

Finally, when you compared the two systems, I'll assume that both transmitters were on. Were the frequencies selected so as not to interfere with each other by way of intermodulation? -->>>

Welcome to the forum Kevin! I hope you didn't read my post in the wrong light... I was simply pointing out possibilities. Personally I always appreciate anyone who takes the time to put helpful stuff on the net.

A friend of mine recently began browsing these forums and he said he can't believe how little video there is to see from a video forum!

Over the past winter a lot of guys (including myself) went on a quest for better sound and we put a ton of it up for everyone to listen. You can hear a lot of those clips as they're hosted HERE!

Anyway, I've been tempted to post a little wireless test but so far I declined 'cause there are so many variables that can ruin your wireless feed on-set. If you guys want to see/hear what an old Lectro VHF set can do I'll be happy to post a clip. Just for sh*ts and grins I left my house and drove into the next cul-de-sac over and you can hear my truck radio and every whisper from me all the way until I'm about 200+ feet away... then when I get within 200' again (on the next street over) you can hear me clear as a bell from inside my truck...

I would expect ANY $500 or so wireless to be able to yield nearly perfect audio within your house... no matter where you go inside of it.

One time previously I read a post from a guy who said he gets some drop-outs with a Sennheiser 100 system beyond 40'... I hope that experience is rare. 150+ feet is nothing for me...

I bought both of my systems used for around $500 each.

Thanks Matt!

I agree that posting something like this has to be taken with a big grain of salt. However, I too have become frustrated with the lack of sound compressions out there on the Net. Sound is such a subjective thing. Plus, me being an old musician and everything, I've learned to take Mfgs specs with a big grain of salt. That is why I test equipment and let the results speak for themselves.

BTW, you can't imagine the kinds of emails I've received regarding that test. Some people get so defensive and have such a strong opinion about their equipment. However, when you ask them if they've compared it with any other Mfgs systems like I did then their response is always no. ;o)

I'll check out that link now.

Thaks again!
Kevin

Kevin,

Thanks for filling in the information. It sounds like to covered all the bases and did a good test. Please don't get me wrong though, I'm not being defensive, I'm beign thorough. I am a professional audio engineer with 30 years xperience in broadcasting and recording. On these forums, I read so many highly opinionated posts from some very uninformed but well meaning folks that when I see something as involved as a wireless comparison test, I am naturally skeptical.

I have heard good and bad reports about all these systems. I have used the A-T U-100 and and been pleased, and I just sold 2 of them to a news production company in Wahsington D.C. I have used Sony's and been disappointed with their noise floor. I have not yet tried the G2's

Comparing wireless systems at this price range is like debating whether one frozen dinner is closer to real food than another. All have some resemblance, but the question is "which is the better imitation?" If you have reasonable expectations, and take care to select your frequencies, I think any of the models we have discussed should give reasonable results.

As for specs, they are only guidelines because they can be skewed to read better than they really are. In view of that, the poor specs posted on the Sony unit are pretty dismal, and I don't trust Sony to be any more "honest" with their specs than anyone else.

One question no one seems to be asking is about repairs. I know where to send a Sennheiser or an Audio Technica. I know I can call them and speak to the service manager. Not so with Sony.

Marty,

No problem here. We are all just trying to find the best solution for an affordable price. Sound is such a subjective thing too, which makes it that much harder.

Kevin

In the past I've been quick to blurt out an endorsement for Lectro and I realize I've been dropping not-so-subtle hints in this thread... but with the last couple posts Marty I've really had to hold back! Now with your last addition regarding repairs I have to add that Lectro is made right here in the USA and if you need a repair you'll get the industry's best service and FAST turn-around from the guys in New Mexico.

As far as the previously mentioned specs issue goes, Lectro's specs, performance, and construction are the reason that they're the most commonly used brand of wireless in the news and entertainment industry. Really you'd have to go to a digital Zaxcom for an upgrade.

All of the above is why I offer my humble opinion that some readers seeking wireless in the $500-$700 range consider a USED Lectro system.

<<<BTW, you can't imagine the kinds of emails I've received regarding that test. Some people get so defensive and have such a strong opinion about their equipment. However, when you ask them if they've compared it with any other Mfgs systems like I did then their response is always no. ;o)>>>

You've touched on a very important thing in audio IMO and that is
it can be difficult to judge how good your audio is until listen to side by
side with another source.

When judging audio quality between two sources such as mic preamps,
(called A-B listening) most people will pick the louder audio as sounding best.

It can also very difficult to accurately judge a single source without anything to
compare it against. So your (for example only) Sennheiser ME66 may
sound great to you, until you check it against the 416. That sounds great
until you test it against the Schoeps MK41.

A six years ago one of the first music videos I shot took myself and
the musician around a historic theme park using things like the carousel
and riverboat as sets. They had an old steam power locomotive that we
did a couple of passes on. Later in post I got a hold of some sound track
CDs that had a bunch of train clips on them. I listened back and thought
they sounded ok . . . probably good enough to start using. That is until
I put the train audio recorded on my XL1 camera mic up in the speakers.
The XL1 mic (not known for stellar quality) made the
"pro sound track" CD sound like
CRAP!!! My jaw hit the floor at the difference in quality and how badly
I was fooled without anything to compare it against.

Matt,

Even at risk of losing sales of new euiqpment, I have to agree.

It can be easily argued that Lectro has gained the position of perhaps being the most used ENG wireless system in the country - on the professional level. They make a very good product - well engineered, reliable, rugged, and with an audio quality that only a few other higher priced units can compete with.

They are an American company and made here too. Their older VHF units sound superior to many new low cost UHF units, though they are fixed frequency, and have better range.

This is not an endorsement of the company (I no longer do business with them), but an objective observation of their equipment, which I've used many, many times.

On the other hand, Audio Technica is also an American company, and Sennheiser has a factory office on the East Coast. Both offer excellent customer and technical service. Both make excellent products and stand behind them.

Lectro's advantage is that while Sennheiser historically catered to the high end market, at high end prices, and A-T is fairly new in the ENG game, Lectro has been making cost efficient ENG systems for many years and their earlier generation models are now on the used market at prices comparable to the newer low cost models.

Jacques,

You are quite right. It is a shame that people base their buying decisions on the opinions of people they really don't know, without comparing for themselves. But the practical facts are that demo units are not always available, and not everyone has the skill to do valid comparisons of such gear as wireless systems. So tests such as that done by Kevin are very welcome (though I must say that, though Kevin seemed to be quite thorough, people in other locations have had much better results from the Sennheiser systems).

Comparing wireless gear, unlike most other audio components, involves two qualitative judgement - audio performance and rf performance. Neither one is any good without the other, but all the units at the lower price points make compromises in both, so I don't see any clear winner.

I should have added that I've been a happy owner of Sennheiser and Audio Technica gear for years... me66, mke2, 4073a, and numerous other headphones and mics...

A good friend of mine went with the AT wireless lav system at my recommendation and she's been VERY happy with it.

She gave it to me for a week just to play around with it and see what I thought (since I recommended it without any real-world experience) and I was very impressed. The sound was crystal clear and the performance was impressive all the way around. Also the construction is very solid and has a good feel and weight. I was also surprised at how well the diversity system worked... I used to think diversity only made occasional adjustments, but it moves as freely as a VU meter...

The only tiny criticism that I had of it was that I could faintly hear the diversity system switching... but from the results that doesn't seem to show up in the actual soundtrack... I only heard it when monitoring the system directly through my 7506s at the receiver...

I would be very happy to own one of those... I'm pushing another friend of mine towards one now!

I've used the AT 101 UHF Wireless too. It is a very good system. However, the receiver is too dang big for the Sony PD series cameras. ;o)

I have the Sony. It's somewhat big for the PDX10 but not very heavy since it's mostly plastic. I velcroed mine to the camera's battery and it even helps my camera have better balance. Of course I lose access to the EVF, but that's not really as bad because for run and gun I usually use the LCD and if the camera is set on a tripod and I have time for the EVF then it doesn't really matter where the reciever is.

The Lectro receivers are relatively small, but even still I use a cell-phone belt-clip pouch that I bought from Home Depot... then I just run a 5' XLR to the camera... I can easily run two systems like this. If you take a look at Lowe's or Home Depot I'll bet you can find a tool-pouch add-on... or even this very cell-phone pouch... which will handle your reciever well, and keep that extra weight off your arms. If 5' of XLR is too long then I just use the Rip-Tie (which is permanently attached to each of my XLRs... i.e. velcro) to shorten it as needed. 5' works well for me 'cause I can still hold the camera overhead if needed.