Muddy Zoom H4n Audio - Ideas?
 

So I purchased a Zoom H4n this year to place on speakers during the ceremony and reception at weddings. I used to use an Olympus DVR for this, and the sound was generally great, but sometimes had clipping issues.

With the Zoom, I had pretty high expectations for great audio, especially given that you have control of the levels. But after 3 weddings I've found that my Zoom is delivering audio that is kind of 'muddy'. In other words, there's seems to be too much in the lows and not nearly enough in the highs. It sounds like I'm recording the audio from the room next door, through a wall ... if that makes sense.

Anyone else experience this? Any solutions?

If I read your post correctly, you're putting the H4n on top of the the speaker, not in front of the cones? If you are, that's the reason why you're getting muddy sound.

Warren, what I've been doing is placing the Zoom right on the edge so that the built-in mics hang over the edge of the speaker (right above the tweeter). So the Zoom is indeed on top of the speaker unit, with the mics hanging over the edge.

I guess I'm not understanding why I did this in the past with a digital voice recorder that has no level control and costs half as much, yet I got great results. It seems to me that the Zoom should be able to do just as well at least.

The way you've got the recorder laying down, would suggest that you are getting the pick up pattern aimed at the room. I used my H2 next to some speakers for a gig recording last year, with the mics off axis from the speakers. It sounded like I'd put the recorder in a cupboard.

Travis,
If I understand you correctly, your mics are hanging over the edge of the speaker, but the capsules are pointing away from the cone/tweeter? If so, that's the problem. The h4n mics are not omni directional. The mics must be pointing directly AT the sound source. In your case you're pointing away from the source. Your recording sounds like it's from another room because what you're actually recording now is the speaker's reflection off the opposite wall...or wherever the mics are pointed at. Think of the pair of mics as a pair of eyes. Whatever the eyes are looking at is what you're going to record.

Your Olympus DVR sounded fine because it's mics were omni directional, which means it didn't matter which way the recorder was facing.

H4n is different. You need to "aim" it at your sound source. You could try putting it on a light stand, in FRONT of the speaker with the mic capsules "looking" directly towards the cone/tweeter. Hope this makes sense.

You can do this very simple test to see what I mean about aiming the h4n. Hold the unit about a foot away from you, with mics pointing at you. Speak clearly, and as you continue talking, rotate the unit around 90 degrees, say you're at 90 degrees, then 180 degrees, and so on. When you play back, listen carefully to hear how clear it sounds on axis, and less so off axis. There is a big difference in sound quality.

Warren, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like the only solution is to get the H4n in front of the speaker with the mic's aimed at the speaker. I had some others tell me to also put the Zoom at a 45-degree angle to the speaker stack. Again, thanks for the information. Very helpful!

Thanks! You are correct.

Yes, this is true because the "cross eyed" mics are offset 45 degrees relative to the line of sight. With the 45 degree setup, one mic is getting the speaker, the other is getting ambiance.

Here's something I've thought about but never tried yet: Mount the h4n on it's side, in front of the speaker. This way, one mic will be recording the tweeter, the other will be recording the woofer. Then mix in post to balance highs and lows. DJ systems vary quite a bit. Sometimes they're very heavy on the bass, sometimes not.

That's a fantastic idea, since I'm usually getting ambiance from a few other sound sources anyways. I'll try it out a week at the next wedding.

Hey Trav,

What I've done is used a bogen magic arm, clamp it to the speaker stand, mount the h4n on the business side of the arm, point it at the speaker, adjust the levels for whats coming out of the speaker, and wham bam, bobs your uncle.

Works pretty well when I have the luxury of a speaker stand other than just house mics. :S

BTW, Warren, did you ever get a chance to see the piece I shot with you in it? I was sent the edited piece (as I just shot it).

Randy baby, yeeaaaa! That sounds like a good plan. If the speaker isn't on a stand you could still mount the arm to a lightstand and have it next to the speaker. I also have a stand with a boom arm and I'm thinking about using that because I could set the stand up behind the speaker (out of the way of guests).

By the way, I did gaff-tape the H4n to a speaker stand (about 2-3 feet down from the speaker) at the last wedding reception and the sound came out better.

Why don't you just plug the h4n directly into the sound system?

Because Travis like myself very well might not trust who is running the board.
As you could easily have distorted audio or no audio at all during the night. You never know how capable a DJ might be and one could easily mess up your recording. After all he doesn't work for you or with you, so you really aren't on his mind while he's working the gig.

I am a control freak and like to have as much control over the shoot as possible. So I use self powered remote control lighting, and pre-placed off camera audio for capture. This way I get no surprises and can get a constant look and feel to my productions.

Yes, I saw it on Brad's website. Good job editing! I'm much better behind the camera than in front...lol

I try to get into the board as much as possible, but that depends on the DJ. Sometimes they're stressed because they arrived late and asking them to hook up is added stress for them. Other times, they have everything neatly covered up and wrapped. Trying to get hooked up means they have to take off covers, take off cable ties, grab a flashlight, and get into the bowels of their mixer. Then at the end of the night they have to do the same again in reverse to unplug me, which makes me feel really bad.

In post I find that a direct feed is sometimes too dry and sterile, and I need reaction audio of the audience from another source mixed in. By putting the h4n in front of the speaker, I've found that I can get "direct feed" and the audience all on one track without having to re-mix. No stress on me or the DJ too.

For the exact reason that Michael stated. I just don't trust the DJ to get it right. Too many DJ's barely know their equipment and the chances of them making a mess of my feed is just too high.

For that matter, I filmed a huge event at the Taco Bell Arena last year and we had a feed into the board through a recorder and also one to one of our cameras. The sound tech, who is employed full time and has been there for like 5 or 6 years, still managed to mess up both feeds and because it was a live event we couldn't fix it. Luckily we didn't trust the sound board feeds and had several other audio sources to pull from.

Warren - I didn't edit it, just shoot. Great to hand the files over and not have to look at anything :), hehe. I think I need to go see Dr. Brad and try out his services for this neck thing I got going on. Ack.

Trav - Not a bad idea! Although I'm always wary about having other stands around as I'd hate for someone to tip it over and kill the h4n / whatever I have mounted on there :S. That boom stand sounds good too but I hate having so much grip gear to setup, trying to keep it light weight and all that. I've been rolling with less and less h4n though and just have been sticking to high quality recorders in jackets / mounted to belts or podiums. I've been burned by that darn H4n battery life once already and interference from wireless' so I try to not use it as much for "main" audio.

Yeah, I didn't take the boom stand to this past wedding. I'm just tired of dragging so much gear. I love how my wife has a single case with all of her photography stuff in it .. must be nice, lol.

So you had wireless interference with your H4n? How is that possible when the H4n doesn't transmit/receive?

Just a quick note on the battery runtime...
Try using . I run with these in my wireless and recorders and they run forever. I can easily run the H4n for a 8-10 hour shoot with these.

As for the H4n and interference, I don't know how you are getting interference from them, as they don;t receive any wireless signals. Now if there's noise in your audio and you're using external mics or long runs, than this might be your problem. But the recorder won't pickup wireless interference.

BTW used the H4n with only the internal mics at a wedding this weekend, and it worked flawlessly. This was micing the PA stack, but once again, make sure that your recorder is not directly in front of the PA system, but at a 35-45 degree angle. Also it helps if you run the Concert Limiter for loud recordings. Also the strings I recorded the weekend prior sounded great too.

I'm using this recorder so much, I am very close to selling off my beloved Edirol R44, which hasn't seen the light of day in months.

I set up the H4n on a small light stand (2 feet high) at a 45-degree angle to some floor speakers for this past weekend's wedding reception. I'll let you know how they sounded in a day or two.

Interference is coming thru the lavs that I have hooked into the H4N. I understand how the audio system works quite well and know that there is no wireless signals being picked up thru the H4N on its own. Why do I use wireless with H4N? It's too big to put inconspicuously into the grooms jacket pocket ;).

I'll take a look at the energizer lithiums, but I've been burned from rechargeables once and prefer to buy new batteries each time. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the lifespan of rechargeables and etc, for my productions, I prefer fresh new batteries. However, I'm willing to take a look at these lithiums if they can power the H4N in 4 channel mode for 8-10 hours as you say (since 4CH mode drains the battery quicker). In any case, the H4N has been regulated to backup duty and I'm using recorders coupled with high quality mics instead of wireless + h4n + built in mic as the main now.

Just wanted to provide an update. I have since tried out the H4n set up on a light stand in front of the speaker at a 45-degree angle. The audio quality is much better than before.

Randy the Energizer lithium's are not rechargeables, so no worries there. They last a long time.

Travis great to hear.
While the H4n isn't the best recorder out there, it does perform very well.

So glad to hear that it's not as bad as you first reported.

Much thanks. I'll definitely look into them for the H4N as it cuts itself way too close at times.

Just a follow up, MUCH thanks for the lithium recommendation! I was astounded at the battery life, my DR-100's battery meter did not drop ONE bar and it was running for a few hours. At 3-4 bucks a battery, they are not cheap, but it was well worth the investment. In comparison, I had regular AA's from radioshack in to test, 1.5 hours of recording before both were dead.

Thanks again.