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Need isolation headphones
I shoot video sometimes around live bands. The
last one I shot I was in front of the stage with my Sony 7506s and couldn't hear a single thing of what was being recorded, even when I pushed the headphones tight to my ears, which has helped in the past. I don't care much about accuracy, but I am looking for something over-the-ear, closed back. (I am not interested in the kind you insert into the ear canal.) Also looking for comfort, as I couldn't wear something that is clamping down like a vice on the head. So these are the ones I've heard to consider for my purpose, and would appreciate any comments on them, or any other phones I should consider: Audio-Technica ATH-M40fs http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search Beyerdynamic DT770M http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search Beyer also has this DT770 Pro http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation Senn HD280 Pro http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search |
Dave, you aren't going to get 34-36 dB reduction from standard non-ear canal phones. Maybe they're out there somewhere, but not at any price that can be paid by us mortals. If such phones existed we would certainly have heard about them here.
But how about active noise cancelling phones? There are several makers now besides Bose. They don't take out the whole frequency range, but they do work in the range where most of the sound energy is. |
I've heard these are good:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation And B&H even reccomends them for your purposes in their write-up: "The result of the HN-7506 design is not only a vastly improved monitoring and mixing perspective, but also diminished listening fatigue and long term ear damage. These headphones are also recommended for live music recording and mixing, for eventual broadcast or commercial CD distribution." However, they're $285 which might make them too exspensive. But for what you want them for, I think you might have to pay that much or even more. |
Have you seen ExtremeHeadphones.com?
With 29db attenuation for $139 they are a pretty reasonable bit of kit. . . |
I have the Sennheiser HD-280's (I don't remember if mine were labeled "Pro" or not, but the price is roughly what I remember paying), and they don't seem to isolate much better than the Sony MDR-7506's. Personally I like the 7506's slightly better as they are a little bit lighter and more comfortable. I can do a more thorough A/B comparison if that would help you out, but I think you'll find them very similar to what you already have.
I'm not familiar with any of the other ones you listed. |
Yes, Jeremy, i would like to know it the 280s are
no more isolating than the 7506s. |
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ohms of impedance, so that just about anything you plug them into would give plenty of volume. Had some good reviews, too. |
But, Fred, do you think something like active
noise cancelling phones would really work with a band, where the sound frequency is all over the spectrum? I thought the actives are more for when it's just one steady background sound you are trying to isolate from. |
One thing I noticed about the HN-7506s is that they weigh about 5X what most headphones weigh.
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Jeremy,
I was able to take a quick listen in the studio last night to the the 280 Pros and the 770Ms up against the 7506s. This was mostly to get an idea of how isolating they were, and the volume levels they can be driven to with a camcorder (Sony PD). I didn't bother auditioning the ATs because they really are not advertised as being "isolating", that I saw. Last week I shot around a live band with the AT3032 using 20dB of attenuation. I used the 7506s and couldn't anything I was recording, even with when I pushed the phones up against my ears. The result was I ended up with some distortion in parts. In hindsight I think I should have used 30dB of attenuation. Anyways, tonight I shoot around an 8- or 10-piece band, that mostly does classic rock. I'll try out one of the phones and see how it goes for prolonged comfort. I would imagine it's one thing to put phones on for 5 minutes in the studio and another to wear them for 2 hours straight. I'll post a review of these phones soon. |
Just wanted to get back with a few quick impressions.
I tried the 770s with the Sony PD and VX cams around a live band and found that the Sony cams couldn't drive them to a sufficient volume to overcome the volume of the band so the 770s didn't really help me out. (I was located right in front of the stage.) I am now looking for a headphone amp to drive the 770Ms to a loulder level. I was able to compare the three phones back at the studio a bit more. The 280s give noticeably more isolation than the 7506s. Senn claims the 280s give 32dB of attenuation, and I've noticed in user comments that the "high attenuation" of these phones is often mentioned. In comparison, the 770Ms provide even more attenuation. Beyer claims 35dB attenuation. I will compare them like this. When I put on the 7506s with traffic going by outside the studio, it was like putting on phones with not much attenuation of the ambient. With the 280s, it was like putting on phones that attenuate a good amount of ambience. When I put on the 770s, it was like I walked into a another room -- a very quiet room. You could still hear the cars going by but it seemed the attenuation was at another level as compared to the 280s. (Hard to describe but it was vaguely disorienting when I put these phones on, that's why I say it was at a different level.) I would say the 280s seem to attenuate about 75% of what the 770Ms do. And the 7206s seem to attenuate about 33% of what the 280s do. All three of these phones sound very different. I usually use the 7506s for dialog and I tried the Beyers out on this job and they sounded so different that I thought at first there might be a problem. Dialogue with the 7206s is right in your face but with the Beyers it is much more subdued. The 7206s are just hyped so much for dialogue. I think the Beyers are more neutral/flatter. When you're used to listening to music with the 7206s you notice the flatness of the Beyers as maybe being dark. Just for listening to music for enjoyment I'd stick with the 7206s. I really didn't care for the sound of the 280s in comparison to the 7206s. The 280s had more life in them, more like the 7206s, as compared to the very laid-back 770s, but there didn't seem to be as much separation of the instruments nor as much spatial locationing (stereo image) of the instruments as compared to the 7206s and 770s. Basically, it just sounded to me like the 7206s used higher-quality components in the headphone speakers. I did read where someone with the 770s in their studio boasted that some people say they get the best results with mixing with headphones using his 770s than the mixes they get using any other headphones. For those times where you have to use headphones to mix (maybe home studio late at night) this may be true seeing as they seem more flat. I've tried mixing with the 7506s and the results were not good. I like the 7506s for detail work such as noise reduction. The 280s just didn't seem to offer the detail of the other two models. As far as comfort, the 280s definately came out on the bottom here. For me with a larger head, the seal around the ears didn't seem the best and I never could get them to feel real comfortable around the ears. Also, there was always pressure at the top from the band. A girl in the studio (with a small head) tried them on. Her comments were that the 280s are "tighter" than the 770s, and that the 770 went on easier and is more comfortable. For myself, one thing that really stood out in this test is how comfortable the 770s were right out of the box! By the way, they come with a really nice thick-foam padded case. The case is not small, but the phones don't fold up like the 7206s do. I've read where people say the 770s are quite durable but that the 280s can be fragile at the plastic swivel parts of the headband. The 770 headband is all metal. By the way, this is the new 770M model, which is listed on the Beyer site as being for drummer and for front-of-house sound engineers and it is listed as having much more attenuation than their 770 Pro model. The 7206s had the loudest volume, the 280s were in the middle, and the 770s were lowest volume, but there wasn't a lot of difference between them. I really haven't spent much time with these phones yet but if anyone should have any questions about these three models of phones you are welcome to ask. I'm no big audio expert or anything but these are just my impressions based upon using phones regularly in the studio and in the field for video production. |
Dave,
Very good information, but Chris is giving away periods and paragraphs here. Help us read you. So the 7206 Sony headset seemed to be your favorite, correct? |
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or felt when I had it on -- and like I said, someone with a small head tried it on and didn't care for it either. Now, perhaps for the money it is an alright value but I can't say because I've never tried any other closed-back over-the-ear headphones other than the 7206s, which are my usual phones. I haven't spent much time with the Beyers to really say, but I do need isolation phones for out in the field and the 7206s do not cut it at all when working in loud surroundings. One alternative to the Beyers is the 7506HN phones but those things weigh 3 pounds whereas the ones I've looked at here way about 1/2 pound. Three pounds is just too much for me and no one else in the studio would wear them because of the weight. The ExtremeHeadphones (mentioned earlier) look interesting. They claim 29dB of isolation, which is less than what the 280s and the 770s claim so ... Maybe once I work with the Beyers more I'll have more to say about them. I did notice that they seemed to have good spatial locationing of the instruments, which is I think referred to as "sound stage". |
I finally was able to try my own comparison of my Senn 280's and the Sony 7506's (the power was out over the weekend mentioned in my last post, so I had other things to take care of).
The Sennheisers did seem to isolate slightly better than the Sony's, but I'm attributing some of that to the fact that they seemed to press harder to my ears (stiffer headband I think). I did have some trouble with them when I first got them because they seemed uncomfortable after several minutes. I found that tilting the headband slightly farther forward than usual helped a lot, and now I just position them that way without thinking about it. I also noticed that the Sony's seemed a little louder than the Sennheiser's. For the test I powered them off of a Soundcraft mixer, but when I use the Sennheiser's with my GL2 I do usually leave the output volume at max. If isolation were not an issue I think I'd go for the 7506's, as they are still more comfortable. One of these days I may look into the in-ear monitors (as I'm also a musician), but I've got some other upgrades to make first. 'Hope this helps you out. |
I'm jumping in here very late, but here is another thing to try.
Etymotic earbuds and shooters muffs. http://www.etymotic.com/\ I have not personally used these earbuds, but lots of folks on this board like them a lot. You have to be very careful when using headphones in a high SPL surrounding. When you have to turn them up all the way, and still cannot hear what is happening, I would guess you are damaging your hearing. Earbuds will help with isolation and the heavy duty shooters muffs covering your ears will give even more isolation meaning you don't have to crank the earbuds. I found some shooters muffs I like at Cabelas for $20. They are blue and have nice comfortable pads enabling long wear times. I can't remember the brand name. Again, be careful with your hearing. |
Has anyone tried the 7506's little brother: the 7505s? Are they comparable to the 7506s? I like the compact design better, but if they aren't going to cancel any sound out (even a little bit) then I'll go for the 7506's.
Thanks -Brett |
I have been using the Ex29 (www.extremeheadphones.com) with a Canon Xl1s in a live bandsituation, and they are very good for this. In fact i found myself next to the bass stack without noticing it - exept for the pounding in my stomach.
I later tried a nomal set of AKG D240's and they ware useless in this environment. It was a "normal" rockband in a small venue, so it was not death metal volume. I had no problem monitoring the sound from the XL1s, when the band was playing at a volume where you had to shout at full volume in order to be understood 20 feet from stage. The EX29 headphones has a somewhat undefined top, and are not usable as all round phones. But for monitoring in noisy environment they are perfect. And they look sort of StarTrekish However there are alternatives. Beyer Dynamic DT-770M gives more damping > 36 dBs and Vic Firth SIH1 less at 24 dBs. |
This is an interesting thread. I am new to all this, so I wont be able to make any statements on headphones whatsoever. Just wanted to say I noticed that right now and "for a limited time" Front End Audio have the afforementioned Extreme Isolation Headphones on sale for 90 USD. http://frontendaudio.com/Extreme%20I...Headphones.htm
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I like the low impedance on those Exteme Headphones,
which means most any type of consumer device would drive them to a high volume. The one issue I've had with the Beyers is their higher impedance, which means my cam can't drive them to the higher volume levels without a headphone amp, which I haven't picked up yet. I've seen some headphone amps in the $60 range. I found a couple of website forums where headphones and everything related to them are discussed by hobbiests, but I can't recall the addresses off the top of my head. |
Thanks for the welcome Douglas! Must admit that I hadn't run "Front End Audio" through resellerratings etc. Being from Europe I'd forgotten what a problem scam operations are in the US. After reading your post I did a seach on them and couldn't find any reviews on the company. However, Google brought up a couple of interesting links.
The company is mentioned here: http://mixonline.com/news/audio_front_end_audio/ (copy & paste if hot link doesn't work) and this place is apparently co-sponsored by them: http://www.mojopie.com/ I haven't done any business with them myself, so I can't say whether they are for real or not - but the above links do seem to give them some credibility. See you around Douglas! ----------------------- To Brett Whited: If you can use the advice of a newbie; read on. I own a pair of Sony 7505s and I like the sound of them. However, to my ears, they don't really cancel out a lot of sound. I am wearing them unplugged as I write these lines, and I hear the sound of my computer's fan loud and clear through their sparse foam cushioning. Also you should know that unless you have circular shaped ears, with a diameter of 40mm or less, they wont go around your ears, but on top of them - something which I don't find all that comfortable. If you compare the specs of the 7505 and 7506 you will also notice that there are some differences. I'll let the pros comment on the specs as I can't help you on that. I did notice, however, that the two headphones almost weigh the same - but my guess is that the true "around the ear" shape of the 7506s would make them more noise cancelling and a lot more comfortable to wear. I'll keep my 7505s for now, but if I were you I would go for Sony's 7506. |
I now use Futuresonics EM3's in the field to make sure that I'm hearing what the camera's getting and not ambient sound.
http://www.futuresonics.com/ Was using Sony MDR-V6's but couldn't get enough isolation to know exactly what the mic was picking up. Eventually I'll opt for the custom fitted earpieces. If I had to do it over again I'd probably opt for the custom fitted ones right off the bat. |
There is an interesting thing about these extreme isolation headphones, that makes you sympathize with deaf people. We all know the viewfinder-syndrome, where you are so occupied looking in the viewfinder, that you sort of ignores the rest of the world. This might be fatal, if you are recording events like live volcanoes or war.
The extreme isolation headphones has the same effect. You drift into your own world of silence away from the real world. I was recording a theater performance - not very noisy, but I used my EX29 in order to be 101 % sure that the sound was good. I was adrift in a world of silence, that ended when my wife banged me on the head. She had tried to get in contact with me for 2-3 minutes, but I had an eye glued to my XL1s viewfinder and was using my EX29's, so I was totally lost. Since then she had her own pair pf Ex29's for use in her musicproduction with Apples Garageband, meaning that entering a room in our home late in the evening is done with a blinking of the lights. Because either I am NLE'ing or she is Garagebanding and in both cases lost to the real world. The kid has learned to poke mum or dad with a little pointy finger, when we have the funny headphones on. *He* likes the reaction of num or dad going into heart-attack-mode. |
I'm not sure about this but doesn't hearing have
something to do with balance, such as when you walk? |
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with the Beyers but I have seen how many say that the Senn 280s are pretty isolating, and the Beyers are noticeably more isolating. Myself, I'm not interested in ear canal phones. For one, I am constantly putting the phones on, taking them off, on, and off. Probably 30X a day when I'm on the job. I really wonder if the ear canal type would be recommended for this usage? |
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I've been looking at getting a headphone amp for my DT770Ms but have been thinking about maybe trying the Extremes seeing as an amp is in the area of $75 anyway, so this way I'd have 2 headphones. |
All these headphones have a quite tight fit i order to make sure sound is not leaking in.
It took me some time to get used to the EX29s. Cheers |
Just wanted to say that I've finally been able to
get what I wanted out of the Beyer DT770M. The problem I had at first was that they seemed to isolate pretty good but the camcorder wouldn't drive them to enough volume. Well, now I've used them with a Sound Devices MixPre. With the SD headphone level set at about 1/3 of max, I get all the volume I need. And I can really see how these phones do offer very significant isolation as compared to the Sony 7506s. As far as how they sound, I can't really say yet. My main goal was to be able to make sure I was getting distortion in loud environments, and that I think the Beyers will do. My initial impression is that the Beyers are weak in the mids but I wonder if this may help if you ever have to mix with phones. For example, I've heard it said that if you mix with phones (dialog and music) and the vocals sound good with phones, that the vocals will be too low in reality. So if phones are weak on mids, perhaps they will give a vocals mix that is more like what you'll get with near field monitors. Anyone care to comment on this hypothesis? |
Dave
I agree with Jacques (above). Try using some good in-ear phones PLUS some commercial ear-defenders. i.e. the sort of thing people working in undustrial factory wear. These can be bought in almost any hardware store. The combinatio of a good in-ear phone with quite a bit of attenuation themselves plus the ear-defenders (i use them if i got watchin drag-racing) is what you need to be able to hear in a loud rock-band environment. I think anything else is just complicating the issue. i recommend Sony MDR-EX71SL for in-ear phones. they block quite a bit of sound. |
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Some of us, such as myself, would just not be interested in shoving mini-speakers inside of our ears, so this is not an option. As to your comment that anything but in-the-ear headphones is "complicating the issue", I have said that I believe I have found a solution to the issue with these Beyerdynamics. |
OK Dave, that was purely my opinion as to a solution for your problem.
If you don't like my proffered solution then of course it's your prerogative to just ignore it, rather than post a rather impolite retort. Don't knock stuff til you've tried it. best regards |
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