What do you expect?
 

I was involved as the "Theatre Technician" for a stage production, the dance school requested a clean feed from the audio desk for the video guy to use to record from.... No problems, I ran a cable to his camera point, the mix was on a separate o/p of the desk, line level on a fader +4 balanced, isolated and the o/p was a XLR male.
The guy got VERY annoyed when he couldn't plug it into "HIS" camera [a domestic Sony with 3.5mm mic input only] I mentioned I may be able to come up with some adaptors to plug it in but it still would be line level and doubt i could accurately get it to mic level and it would possibly over load the input of the camera and make it unusable [ he then asked how is line level different?] To cut a long story short and more anger from him.... my comment is there's the feed use it if you want, I've got the production to do.

The question is what would you expect from a theatre facility and how much does the videographer supply?

Personally I just expect a place to plug into on the board. Other than that I have my own cables, my bag of connectors and turn arounds and anything else I can fit into the bag that might come in handy. Most of whic I've collected over the many years.
Now if the sound person has cable layed out to my camera position well that's a plus and an extra thank you from me.
As a camera op that's all I can and do expect from the sound person.

You were completely right and the amateur videographer had totally unrealistic expectations. Unless detailed technical arrangements (and even equipment dry-run tests) are done in advance, the "itinerant" operation (the videographer, etc.) are expected to bring their own kit of adapters, connectors, etc. to get from any kind of industry-standard source (such as you provided) into whatever equipment they are using. You cannot possibly be equipped to handle EVERY kind of different equipment that comes along. That is THEIR responsibility.

If they can't handle professional line level (+4dBu) and professional connectors (XLR, TRS 1/4 inch, etc.) then they are simply not prepared to do business. Based on your narrative of the scenario, this doesn't appear to even be debatable.

I speak from many decades of experience on BOTH sides of the cable.

I expect nothing. If I am lucky enough to have the opportunity to get a feed from the board I supply all the necessary cables/adapters. If I get something that I can feed directly into my camera I'm very happy. But I always have a mixer with me in case I need have additional control.

The only time I've expected more was when I was filming a concert that was being shot specifically for the purpose of making a music video to accompany the release of the CD. This was being shot in a recording studio and they had the engineer who at the board mixing a feed to our cameras. It was great to not even worry about the audio. The funny thing is we didn't even use the audio from the cameras. The engineer was just really detail oriented and wanted to make sure we all were getting a quality mix.

Garrett

I expect nothing but a feed from the board if arrangements have been made. It's not my equipment, so I don't expect to be able to use it unless that has been worked out as part of the deal. I was in one place that wouldn't even let me hide a wireless mic on the stage, so I got them to let me attach my wireless to their feed. I used the wireless from the board and a tiny bit of the onboard mic to get some audience sound and it was great. A wireless with XLR input is quite handy.

If it has been predetermined that I am to get cooperation from the sound guy, that's what I expect, and all I expect. I feel it is then up to me to make the contact and find out what gear / cabling I need to supply HIM, in order to take his feed to my cameras. So many times I am the last thing the sound guy does before the show takes off, that I learned long ago to make my requests as small as I can, and have everything ready for him to plug in, adjust, and get on with his job. For the most part, I have worked with some wonderful people to get their feeds. I also...have worked with some real arrogant jerks too. Surprisingly, the nicest, also seemed to be the ones who did the first rate job for the performance and for my needs as well.

I agrree with Richard ... It sounds like you did your job 100% professionally and the videographer was in way over his head. For him to accept the job when he didn't to know what it took to get proper sound into his camera, even to the point of not knowing such fundamentals as the difference between mic, -10 consumer line, and +4 pro line levels, and for him to arrive on location without the necessary tools in his own kit that would be needed to accomplish the job properly, such as a Juicelink or Beach box, plus cables, adapters, etc, is inexcusable. Some people think that the democratization of the media created by the profound drop in hardware cost means that the knowledge, skills, and judgment needed to properly execute a job have similarly been reduced. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Well said, Steve.

If it matters that the end product look good and sound good, then having the right people and equipment resources matters too.

When mixing house sound for a live event, I'm be happy to supply every bit of cable and adapter I have and could spare to a non-pro videographer, in the time available. But, if I don't have advance information about their needs, I too am not going to have the bits and pieces with me that output at 3.5mm consumer mic level.

You, sir, were dealing with an amateur. This is the downside of the democratization of digital video gear. It means that anyone can show up with anything amidst pros and expect the pro to "make it all right". Which is ridiculous. It is fine if the videographer was clueless but to blame you for his not being prepared is borderline idiocy.

Not your responsibility. You provided what any pro would have been expecting. If he has never heard of a BeachTek or Juicedlink product, he is an amateur and had no business expecting you to remedy his ignorance.

Dan

I agree with everything said. UNLESS a technical rider including a requirement for an 1/8" mic level feed was SPECIFIED (yeah, right...), you can rest assured you went above and beyond the second you actually strung the cable to the camera position...

When I take board feeds, I show up with cable and adaptors and EXPECT +4 line level at the board. I expect to have to adapt to and from just about anything. If I get -10 tape out on RCAs, do I complain? Nope. Deal with it. Headphone/control room post-solo out? Sucks but I deal with it (again, UNLESS there is a tech rider in place...)

PS. Most video neophytes seem to think a mixing console (regardless of size) is a magic box with anything in/anything out in unlimited quantities. So do most bands and theatrical troupes.

Steve, can I have this inscribed upon my tombstone, with due credit given?

That's a fact! I'm gonna have to remember that one.

You should sell this quote as a sticker for flight cases!! well said (Im just about to email it to a friend)

On the topic , your patience is infinitely longer than mine , generally Im helpful but unless instructed otherwise theres the board, pass me an xlr and i'll put it in for you and make sure its transmitting sound on a post fade .....my gig is to make sure the room sounds fine and thats enough to be getting on with

If Im behind a camera or field mixing I'll run my own cables and ask permission if i want to attach something to a stage/podium and i'll always carry a radio with and xlr input

Bane of my life is webcasters , journalists and cameramen who arrive 10 mins before a show and think I have nothing better to do than take responsibility for their productions, provide an infinite run of cables, power and connectors so that they can hide their technical ignorance and lack of preparation

Your Cameramans anger would have been met by an equally angry tirade questioning his ability to do his job

The theatre problem that occured the other day had me thinking what would be the best way to solve the problem.... 2 x XLR female connectors to 3.5mm stereo plug with maybe a switchable 40db pad mounted in a box. Infact this is what a BeachTek adaptor is, with a few other things added.

Brian you are correct. That would have been the solution but as the Theater Tech it is not your responsibility to provide that to the Videographer unless there was some kind of prior agreement.

Garrett

Personally speaking as a professional videographer, you are not responsible for his feed, unless some prior agreement was agreed upon. But even then this should have been relayed to you is there was a feed agreement.

However, I agree with what's been stated here already, in that he was not a professional, but a hobbyist at most thinking of himself as a professional. Any professional would at the least have adapters, or at the least a Beachtek/Juicedlink XLR adapter for his 1/8 mic input camera.

After all I shoot with Sony FX1's which only have 1/8 mic/line inputs. But I use Juicedlink XLR boxes for my audio input, and always travel with plenty of adapters to account for any situation.

More patience than me.......
 

Brian,

Mate, as stated above, you have more patience than me, I'd have have handed him a broom stick, told him to tape the camera to it and perform a colonoscopy on himself, lets face it, a consumer Sony's small enough!!!! :) I have less & less time for idiots as I get older...... Of course, I'd have done this in a very polite manner so's not to tarnish the theaters reputation..... :)

Al

Speaking as the rank amateur...
 

The guy who showed up had the brilliance of a rock. Even in his own consumer equipment world, he should have known the signal levels on those RCA cables hooking his cassette player, dvd player, etc. to his receiver/amplifier are radically different from a 1/8" mic input, even if they are all RCA cables. He has done no research and asked no questions. He hasn't even taken a walk past a soundboard to look at the connectors - and my oh my aren't the overwhelming majority different from RCA anything.

I shoot regularly at my church. My own philosophy is reduce my needs to the absolute minimum, ask early, be detailed in my requests, and what missing pieces do I need to supply to make things work. Being amateur, I often don’t know what those missing pieces are, but hope the pro can and will tell me. Assuming the world is designed for my equipment to simply plug into is a bad assumption. And if something isn't possible/forthcoming (just please let me know politely), then it is up to me to deal with it. Getting angry, as this person did, fixes no problems and generates no good will, in the present much less for the future.

And by the way, I have a BeachTek...
And most of the time my only need is for a single AC outlet somewhere.

Similar discussion in dvxuser.com - good insight
 

I started a post in another forum: Recording a concert from the soundboard - Why does my audio suck? - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking . I am a videographer trying to educate myself on how to cooperate with PA sound technicians on my gigs. I wanted to share from a videographer's perspective.

Rather than call each other ignorant or stupid, it's probably best we try to speak each other's language. This is a good first step.

I have been guilty of showing up at the last minute and asking for a line feed from a sound guy who is frantically prepping for a live performance. Please tell me how I can be more helpful in these situations.

As for audio knowledge, all I care about is plugging something into my camera or recorder that sounds good. I can't "see" what kind of signal I am receiving. I can bring my own mixer, etc, but then I need to plug it in somewhere. I want to stay out of your way as much as possible.

Here is another forum post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=216461

Alex, calling names or not, it is simply not the job of the house sound system operator to provide anything to you unless whomever is paying for the production agrees in advance. If you get ANYTHING useful from the sound board you should consider yourself very lucky. Perhaps it is because you are only beginning to learn about sound that you don't understand the difficulty of the job you are expecting someone else to do for you with no advance notice and no time to do it properly.

Perhaps you should try running sound for a few times to understand the complexity of the job. Most times, the operator scarcely has enough time and resources to do his own job adequately without even considering your needs. Having someone show up at the last minute and expect a decent RECORDING MIX (which is NOT the same as a REINFORCEMENT MIX) is clearly beyond what anyone would consider reasonable.

And the more complex the event, especially musical performances, the worse the problem becomes. The house PA system has no reason to mic and mix sources that produce adequate sound on their own (like amplified instruments). And they never have any reason to mic the audience (for obvious reasons). Yet a recording (audio or video) without the sound of the audience is rarely acceptable as an acceptable document of a live performance. Sound is at minimum 50% of a video production (many would consider it much higher) and leaving it as an afterthought is practically a guarantee of disaster.

10/10 - what a perfect answer.

Agreeing with everything Richard wrote in response to Alex, here are some direct suggestions:

Don't show up at the last minute and ask for a line feed from a sound guy in final prep for live performance. That's basic. If you or your client can't support the time to contact the sound op before the show, and then arrive at a time that the sound op has agreed on... exactly why are you shooting? If sound on your video matters, it's going to take some time & effort.

In the live sound world, many, many operators simply DO NOT KNOW what makes for a good feed for video, and, they're not set up for it. Add to this some shooters who DO NOT KNOW how to handle the wide variety of feeds they might get from the front-of-house mixer, add a few decades of unhappy experiences, and you get the armed camp mentality of shooters pointing fingers at sound engineers, and vice-versa.

If you want better results, you're going to have to bridge that gap or bring your own sound expertise to do something independent of FOH. That's just a fact.

To summarize some of what's been written above (and some that hasn't):
The FOH engineer has primary responsibility for what the people in the house hear. He or she manages a system that can hurt people physically. The FOH operator is often responsible for multiple monitor mixes as well as the FOH mix. He or she is a busy person with a lot of responsibility.

In typical small and medium venues, none of those mixes will be complete for video use. Usually, they'll be heavy on vocals, keys, and acoustic instruments, light on electric guitar and bass, and probably light on drums. There are good reasons for this, and the FOH engineer would be abandoning their primary responsibilities to change any of those existing mixes.

The FOH engineer typically does not have time, attention, or motivation to create a custom mix suitable for video. Their hands are already full, and their equipment may already be at capacity.

The general plan for the event is finalized at sound check. Any changes to the engineer's setup after sound check risk screwing up everything, without an opportunity to fix it.

The feed you do get may be nominally of microphone or line level, at consumer or professional standard. Most often it will be at a pro line level, low impedance, terminated XLR-M or TRS-F at the board. But it could be anything. It might or might not be at a level and impedance that allows you to run a 100' cable to your camera.

Mostly, the FOH engineer does not run their mixer to the VU meters. Some live boards don't even have meters. The PA system has several places where gain to the house can be adjusted, and one set of standard procedures has the mixer output peaking at perhaps -25db on a mixer that supports much more. What this means to you is that the "line" feed that you got may be very low, but not quite low enough to use a mic input on your camcorder.

The FOH engineer may or may not have an extra 100' XLR laying around, usually not, they may have their personal kit of adaptors, but, they may not offer them because they know that they only get them back about half the time. That's why they carry a personal kit.

The FOH engineer KNOWS that anyone who is truly serious about getting great sound for their recording is going to know all this, is going to plan to fill in the gaps, and may bring anything from a bag of cables and adaptors to their own snake split and mobile truck. The FOH engineer KNOWS that someone who shows up last minute without resources or prior contact expecting an instant solution is indeed ignorant of sound for video and what it takes to mix for the house.

I've been on both sides of this. My feeling is that good sound for the average shooter is kinda' difficult. The shooter should contact the FOH engineer prior to show day, ask nicely if they can get a board mix, agree to whatever the FOH says is possible, then develop the video sound plan from there. Depending on the job, a live music kit probably has a couple direct boxes, a couple 100' XLR, various xlr/trs/phono shorts & adaptors, a couple attenuators, maybe a small mixer, and a pair of good headphones. You gotta' think about a mic in the audience, how will you place it? This mic is important not only for the audience sound, but also for the instruments that aren't in the FOH mix.