head phones or monitors for editing
 

Should I be using a good pair of headphones or good monitor speakers for editing? I've heard I shouldn't use headphones when editing. True?

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

depends on your environment.

Coming from an audio production background, I would say I'd prefer monitors...actually a couple of sets of monitors.

Since I don't have the luxury of that, I rely on my Dynaudio BM6a's and back them up with a pair of Sony 7506 headphones when my kids are sleeping. I can also feed audio to a Sony LED TV which is a great reference.

One company I worked for had 4 editors sharing the same open space. Headphones were a must.

A major benefit of headphones is you will hear bad edits. If your workspace is quiet enough, monitors will show you the same thing.

Bottom line is, edit on what you have available and check it in as many places as you can so you learn what your system is telling you.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

The problem I've found when mixing with headphones is that I mix the details too low. Playing back the mix on monitors or living room speakers and subtle sounds disappear. If you are forced to mix on headphones, strive to make subtle things not so subtle.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Headphones can be Ok for doing an assembly or if you want to do quality control on your tracks but monitors are a must for mixing or balancing, I use dynaudio BM10's with a 10" powered sub for mixing on pro tools and sony 7506 headphones for late night work or quality checking.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Headphones for editing are perfect - better than monitors - you will hear things on good headphones that you can miss on monitors and this is especially important when editing.

However, when mixing you really should use loudspeaker monitors as well as headphones.

I use loudspeakers (K+H O110D and Harbeth M30A), Open headphones (Sennheiser HD 800) and closed headphones (HS 25-1) when editing.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

I would agree with my audio pro colleagues, headphones are fine for editing, fixing glitches, ect.
, I would not recommend mixing on HPs unless the end users will also be listening on HPs. During a mix session, I will often listen on multiple speaker sets and sometimes even HPs for a different perspective though.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

I agree with a lot of sentiments about the importance of monitors versus headphones but sometimes the situation calls for headphones (like a 2 in the morning mix in your home studio). I have 3 sets of headphones in the studio at the moment. The venerable standard Sony MDR-7506 that a lot of people use on set, the Sennheiser HD-25 mkII and a set of Sennheiser HD600. I presently lean towards the Hd25 mkII as they are sealed, have good tonal range, sound good with music and vox and are not fatiguing in the sound department like the Sony cans. The HD600 are a very good detail headphone but are not sealed. Considered amongst the best headphones available at any price. They have been superceeded but are available on eBay. If I had to rely on a set for going to final mix I would go for the HD600 but if one was stomping around in the rough mixing stage, I would go for the HD-25 mkII.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

The HD 25 are superb for listening to detail and listening deep into a mix to fine-tune subtleties.

The HD 600 has not been superseded yet - it is still current. The 650 did not replace the 600, it was just the next model.

But the HD 800 blows both of them out of the water (a lot more expensive, though).

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

There is also the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, which is closed so it works well for field work. I find it flatter than the 7506, so it's the better choice for editing a midnight mixing.

Mixing with cans has the following problems:
* Subtle sounds are too clear, so they can end up buried in the mix.
* Cans often have poor bass response. The shape of the ear differs for everybody, so it's impossible to optimize.
* Cans don't have enough energy for bass notes and effects to give a body response.
* Cans don't provide proper stereo images.
* When your channels are out of phase, you can hear the cancellation with speakers, but will never notice with headphones.

Still, headphones are a good tool for double checking work and allow you to work in a busy office, a noisy environment, a room with terrible acoustics, or when the kids are asleep.

My most recent use of headphones was this... I composed some music for an in-house corporate video and did the mix at home on my monitors. The next day, I played the mix on a variety of systems: PC speakers, TVs in conference rooms, and the projector room with in-ceiling speakers. Needless to say, there were problems. I made notes of the problem areas and estimated how many dB to lift or reduce the given stems. I also noted that some parts of the music were too harsh and nasal.

Back at my office, I was able to use headphones to make these final adjustments and hear how they sounded. I tweaked the mix, rendered it, and the final sounded much better on the cheap systems than before. The dialog was clear from end to end, and the music and effects never called too much attention to themselves. That night I brought the mix home and it was also slightly improved on my monitors.

One key, no matter what you mix on, is to learn the signature of your monitors, room, headphones or whatever. That helps one to know where to push it, where to hold back, and how to do effective, relative adjustments.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

I generally do my first audio editing and mixing on a project through headphones. I like the emphasized detail they provide for this kind of work. Once I've got a good basic structure, I bring it to my loudspeaker monitors (in my case Event TR5). I find my monitors are lacking in bass due to the small driver size and no sub, so I go back to headphones again to check the bass. After that, I play it on the TV, through the stereo, in the car and maybe even through a boom box.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

I agree 100%. The 280s are my favorite all-around phones. I didn't realize how harsh the Sonys are until I listened to a Judy Collins CD one day. After about 30 seconds I yanked them off my ears. The Sonys made Judy sound like my third grade teacher, Mrs. Turner... and believe me, nobody wants to hear a voice that sounds like that! IMHO the Sonys are extremely harsh and strident, with much too much midrange.

And I pretty much agree with everything else you said, except for

With speakers, which essentially combine the bass in your room, the bass might sound thin. With cans, it's not thin, but you hear a strange "vacuum inside your head" effect, which I can't possibly miss. I think I hear phase reversal sooner on cans than I do on speakers.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

The trouble with most speakers is that have been massaged to produce a nice all round sound, this is great for final quality control, but not much use for editing.

I recently purchased a set of M-Audio A40 speakers, they sounded OK up to a point, but my voice recordings had excessive bass. I EQ the sound track to produce a great sounding voice. And like Andy, I played the final edit through a number of devices, TV, Hi-Fi, Computer speakers etc. The sound was dreadful, I had made a compensation for the excessive Bass produced by the M-Audio speakers which resulted in a tin can sound on other equipment.

I have since returned the M-Audio speakers and purchased a set of Yamaha monitors, these produce a totally flat reference sound, but now I can edit the sound quality knowing that it will reproduce accurately on most devices. Well at least the DVDsd that leave me are 99% accurate, I can't do anything about the person who plays my DVDs on their cheapo computer speakers.

The bottom line is, Audio is 50% of any production, a bad sound track will ruin any great shot. Invest in the best cans or true monitor speakers. It will pay dividends in the long term.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Greg, that's fascinating! Years ago I did a digital transfer from an old reel-to-reel using headphones and didn't have any idea there was a phase reversal. Years later, I played the CD on good monitors and became very embarrassed. I opened the file and fixed the error immediately.

With speakers, cancellation due to phase reversal happens in the air, resulting in that empty sound in the middle. With headphones, the cancellation can only happen in the brain.

It's possible that your brain is wired to cancel sound with phase reversal and mine isn't. It's totally plausible and is something that I never considered. If true, you might hear a more representative sound stage when listening on cans. With headphones, I tend to hear the sounds in a line from one ear to the other. With speakers, I hear sounds in a volume.

I should do some tests to learn if I'm as phase-deaf with headphones as I think I am.

Again, this is a fascinating subject!

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Whenever I went to NAB, I noticed that just about every editing suite had Genelec monitors. Are these the standard in the industry?

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Jon Fairhust gave a very good rundown: Headphones are OK for editing.

But if you're going to do final mixdown in post, you must use good monitors.

Warren: Genelec is probably among the leading monitors. However I had the chance to talk to someone who operates a mixdown studio in Hollywood and he said the Tannoy speakers I had were also very good.

That said, Genelec's speakers have built-in amps. You can't beat that for optimum matching of components. If you're interested in Genelec, get in contact with Audy Kimura. He's the Genelec rep in Honolulu. KRK's are also good.

I asked a recording engineer at Ocean Way about the monitor/headphone issue and he did a quick demo. With headphones, the lead singer sounded very present. Way forward in the mix. With studio monitors -- and they have some incredible monitors -- the lead singer was further back.

From then on I always did final mixdown with good near-field monitors. I have a pair of 8" Tannoy's powered with a Hafler amp. It's done well for me over the past 20 years.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Genlec, are indeed some of the best available, and also some of the most expensive. I though the Tannoy speakers were very good, but produced a bit too much bloom at the bass end. I opted for the Yamaha because they were very flat sounding. Now I can shift the tone where I want it.

The only trouble is that I may set things up perfect at my end, but I have no idea what someone else may be listening through at their end.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Jon, mine might be a learned response. I'm not sure exactly how to describe it, and of course my description might be biased by the theory that I know. Listening to a mono track on cans, I think I hear the entire track coming from just one place... single point source, dead center. Listening to a mono track on cans, with phase reversed, the source almost seems to be bigger... as if it's everywhere at once. If I hadn't learned to associate that sensation with phase reversal, I might possibly think it sounded better, because it sounds "less monaural" if that makes any sense. At the same time, it somehow creates a hollow feeling inside my head. (My friends might attribute that to something else...)

I wonder whether the phase-reversed sound from speakers varies, depending on the distance between speakers. Just offhand, I'd think that if the speakers were extremely close, there would be little or no bass farther back in the room: all the air movement would be back and forth between the two woofer cones, with no net pressure change at a significant distance away. OTOH if the speakers were relatively far apart, compared to the listening distance, some of that air movement might indeed be perceived by the listener as an "out of phase" sound, rather than merely a lack of bass. (Perhaps it would be a velocity wave, rather than a pressure wave.) I don't feel quite energetic enough to start moving speakers this morning, though...

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Does anyone have experience with the AKG K240 cans?

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

It's incredibly obvious on my HT system when the left and right main stereo channels are fed an out-of-phase signal. Beyond a diminished bass, instead of a soundstage being created between and behind the speakers with instruments and voices well located in space, the sound becomes very diffuse, seeming to come from outer sides of the speaker area, as if the sound source is in two places at once, simultaneously arrayed along both the left and right sides of the room instead of in the front. Every once in a while a broadcast program or especially often a commercial with phase reversal on its track either makes it through network QC or somewhere in the broadcast chain a cable is mis-wired or some 'engineer' is asleep at the switch and things suddenly go out-of-phase in the room ... damned disconcerting.

Classic ADS L1230 tower monitors spaced about 10 feet apart at two vertices of an equilateral triangle with the listening position.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

LOL

No - more likely probably because Genelec is generous with loans.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

I would disagree with both those comments.

They are certainly not either IMHO.

I would tend to put ATC in the best and most expensive column.

But I would certainly use Neumann / K+H, PMC, Harbeth or Geithein over Genelec.

Actually the new Neumann KH 120 monitors were certainly receiving good comments at ProLight+Sound when I was there. About a third cheaper than the K+H O110 that they replace, but more efficient and go lower as well. In fact I am now considering swapping my O110 for the new KH 120.

Genelec seem to be like "Marmite" - you either love them or hate them. But they do seem to be popular in places.

Re: head phones or monitors for editing
 

Yes, I have a few sets of the K240m from my studio days, on that particular model, one need lots of power to drive them. (they are 600ohm) Decent semi-open cans for the studio, I would NOT rely solely on them for mixing though.