Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Good evening....

I've got a wedding event coming up, and the industrial setting of the venue, requires a bit more attention to audio detail (due to the hum of the lighting and vows being spoken).
I've got a Sennheiser Evolution G2 Series Basic Kit, with a Canon XH A1 video camcorder.

I was planning to capture ambient audio with my Rode NTG 2 via channel 1, and capture the DJ/MC and vows through channel 2..
The DJ is going to be very helpful, and guide me through his gear. He will fix any shortcomings of cabling for me.

That being said, i was wondering if, rather than worrying about coming off the mixing board, and having to worry about levels, or potential movement of swithces, why not capture the signal directly off the speaker?
Since most speakers have an XLR output, why couldn't I attach the SKP100?

I have been assured that everything (including drums) will be micd up. Therefore everything will be driving out through the speakers anyways..

That being said, since i will require mic level signals for my camera, will dropping the sensitivity by 40 decibels help??
Yeah, i thought i'd slide that second question in....

Thank you...

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

The board wil sound clean and controlled. You never know what's up with the speaker. You have a mic in air adding noise, and wind may happen... You may be pointing at the wrong part of the speaker and bee too boomy. Board feed is best. talk to the DJ ahead of time and get the cables needed. Your ambient mic will pick up the rest.

Still I don't think 2 mics is enough for a serious wedding job. You basically need at least 4 recordable tracks of audio. 2 wireless lavs, a board feed, and ambient mic on the camera. One lav on the groom, one on the officiant. The bride will be picked up on the grooms lav. But short of that, a board feed is the way. Make sure you either have a recorder that can take a line level, because soundbpards put out line level. If your camera is mic level, you need a line-to -mic level converter. Very important.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

As far as I know, speakers are not a source of electrical signal, they are transducers which are intended to convert an electrical signal (from the amp) into an acoustic sound wave.

As such, speakers do not have an output, they have an input. All kinds of connectors are used. And you never know what level to expect.

The DJ's mixer, at some point, has a line level signal, which you could feed directly to your recorder (if the recorder has an appropriate input). That line level signal then goes through a master gain control. If the crowd gets noisy, the DJ turns up the master. At that point, unless you turn down gain on your recorder, you're liable to have some bad clipping. Then the signal may go through some equalization (intended to correct for shortcomings in the speakers, or for acoustical problems in the room)... that will just make your recording unrealistic. Finally the signal goes through a power amplifier, which adds some electrical noise and distortion, and the output of the power amp feeds to the speaker. So if you tap off the signal at the speaker, it will probably have non-flat frequency response, more noise, and more distortion than if you use the line level feed from the mixer, and it may at some point have some bad clipping that makes it entirely unuseable. In other words, that's not the best idea.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I thought the OP was talking about micing the speaker. But if it's a powered speaker, often there IS a line out on that, and that is totally fine. I put a alr cable out of the speaker's out, to an inline atenuator, like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68085-REG/Audio_Technica_AT8202_AT8202_In_Line_Attenuator.htmlSet to -20db.

Then I went from that to the plug-on transmitter for my G3 wireless. Then I had the receiver on my camera. That worked great for the toasts, where the D gave them a mic to talk through his PA.

You could also skip the wireless and go into a recorder, but if it's only mic level inputs you still need the attenuator.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Yes, the board feed plus ambient (on independent channels) is the way to go. The board alone is too dry and clean. The ambient alone is an echoey mush. Blend the two and you can get a clean, live sound.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Thanks everybody....
@Chad..You're correct...
In the past, I actually micd speakers with a dynamic mic, and sent it remotely via the SKP100..It worked fine, but the audio had a lousy dynamic range..I figured it was a combination of bad mic placement, and mic quality. Lots of lows, and mids to highs were muffled.

But that being said, I noticed XLR outputs at the back of the speakers, and thought that this would be the best way to get the true sound coming out, without worrying about clipping my "on camera" speakers..

On a second note Chad. I had a fellow at the local PA rental company, assure me that i didn't need attenuation, and that adjusting the sensitivity in the transmitter would be appropriate. That being said, i noticed the SKP100 transmitter has sensitivity from 0db to -50db.

Is your experience different, or do you recommend the attenuator?

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I recommend you have 2 attenuators in your kit generally speaking. You don't always know know what you're going to get and what things happen in emergencies. The reason I used one with the sennheiser because it's already set to mic level, and I don't like fiddling with things on the job. But you could set your 20db lower than you usually set it for the same result. But I also want the plug-on for my own mic to pass around for best wishes type things and don't want to forget to set it back then hand my mic to Grandma and she's too low. Weddings are hard work and I try to minimize my own fiddling. My own camera and Tascam DR-680 have line in, but one just never knows when attenuation will help ya know? If you have a DSLR or a cheaper recorder it could come in handy.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Even so, if it's a loop through from the board's PA feed, don't a few of my comments still apply? namely

(1.) the DJ might change the level to accomodate for a noisy crowd, which would make your gain settings wrong; and

(2.) any EQ applied to the speaker would also be applied to your recording, which would probably be better flat.

I still think you'd be better taking a flat "record" feed from the board, if the DJ can give you that.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Yes, of course...This will be the first avenue i follow.
Since the DJ is a professional, and has done this before for other videographers, i'm sure i don't need to worry about anybody bumping or fiddling with the line out..

Thanks for everybody's suggestion. It definately boosts my confidence...
Until then, i'll be reading up on some of the stickies on the top of the audio section....

There seems to be so much more to understanding audio than video IMHO...

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Sound is much more complex. It's 70% of any "Video" project.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Of course. That's what makes it fun!

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Do you have a separate recorder to get the audio feed? If you have a recorder that does 24 bit just go line out from the mixer into the recorder at 24 bit and set your levels conservatively. The noise floor is lower is lower at 24 bit so you can amplify in post and still get a clean recording. That way you won't have to worry about whether the DJ is going to change his levels.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

One thing to keep in mind is that first and foremost, DJs are entertainers. Some have very limited knowledge of the equipment they use. In their zeal to entertain, they 'stunt around' with their boards to put on a show. One of my pet peeves is their use of their turntable to add a scratching noise to the music. The stunts they pull is a bad combination for those who expect good sound from a DJ. A multilevel approach is the best 'defense'. Sound recorders are cheap so you can easily use multiple recorders. You can record from the board as well as a speaker. You can also use a small recorder with a lav mic attached to the mic stand if one is used for the toasts. Some wedding planners and sound engineers like to put the mic on a stand for reception toasts. It creates a controlled focus point for the toasts.

There are times the music from the board is so hacked up that I use key songs from the original song files to sync when I edit the dancing segment. NEVER trust the DJ as your only sound source. If you do, you WILL be screwed, probably sooner that later.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Yeah, I get the couple to make me a CD of the songs they will use for all the 1st dance type things. All that is planned already for the DJ, so I get the songs and use those in my video. It works much better.

Here's a demo of one wedding I did...

YouTube - Wedding Demo - Long Version

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I just answered a post elsewhere about someone who came to shoot video and expected a certain amount of audio support only to find they couldn't get it.

This raises the question of preparedness. What are you responsible for? What do you want to tell the client when your work is compromised by your expectations that the audio was someone else's job? Who's fault is it? In the best of situations, you'll be fine. But you really can't count on that.

Before I take a gig, I do a lot of Q&A about what's going to happen. What needs to be miced. How it's going to work. Only after I understand fully what's involved and am sure I have a game plan (with backup) do I take the gig. If there are problems I see, we talk about them and try to work out better audio scenarios to avoid them.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Yes, I realized that, and had some comments about it in reply #8 (above).

Strictly speaking, I guess I don't consider that an output from the speaker, it's really just a loop-through of the output from the board. As such, there's no advantage (except maybe convenience of cabling) to using that loop-through, instead of an actual output at the board. And with the loop-through you might have the problems I mentioned in #8 above.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I wonder if someone could summarize the differences (with respect to connecting a recorder) between the several output options on the Mackie mixer I'm looking at. There's a "tape out" that uses RCA jacks, a "line out" that uses quarter inch jacks, plus there's the option mentioned in this thread of connecting to the "loop out" on some speakers. Thanks!

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

That's all basically "line" level outs. "Tape out" is usually RCA female, so you need a couple "RCA male to XLR male" cables. You basically need at least a couple of every kind of adapter (RCA, 1/4", XLR, 3.5mm) to go from a board, speaker, whatever, into your recording device. If your device records at line level then you're good, if not get the in-line attenuators I mentioned earlier. I have 2 and they have saved my butt:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68085-REG/Audio_Technica_AT8202_AT8202_In_Line_Attenuator.html
You must be prepared. Don't just get the bare minimum for this one gig, get what you need to cover any gig.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Thanks Chad. Just to be clear, all of these outputs are the same mix - essentially what's coming out the speakers, right?

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Yes, all of those give you the mix as the sound person intends it.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

...which can be a HUGE problem.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

You can get "pre-fader" feeds of each track, but not all boards, or sound-people, can do that. But short of setting up your own mics on everything, we sometimes have to deal with soundmen, or DJs. Then you get what you get and you don't throw a fit.

I just delt with the nightmare of recording an all voacal concert at a "state of the art" concert hall. There were 5 mics on stage. The soundman gave me all 5 as pre-fader, only there was a bad hum on all the tracks. He could not track it down, but we discovered the hum was gone when he gave me "post-fader". Not optimal, but we went with that because the show was starting. I hired a 2nd camera guy, I ran one camera, and setup/monitored the audio. I had my Tascam DR-680 getting the 5 mics. I got a full mis board feed to my Sony D-50, and a Rode NT-4 mic going into my camera. Buess what - I needed all 3 of those record methods to deliver a complete show to the client. As it turns out the sound man would turn off the mics when the audience applauded. So if I only got the 5 mics, there would be big blanks on the applause. So my Rode NT4 captured the audience and saved the day, and gave me a nice room sound to blend with the dry sounding mics. So it sounds like a hall, not a bedroom. But there was also a guy singing once with a wireless mic in the middle, the shoudman didn't rout that mic to one of my 5 channels in time, so I missed the first 10 seconds of this guy singing - BUT my Sony D-50 captured the whole mix as the soundman intended for the audience. So I used that, then faded to the better sounding signal I got 10 seconds later.

Moral:
Could have been a frickin' nightmare, but I got everything because I was prepared, and MY mix sounds better than the sound man's did in the theater. I can't stress enough the importance of being prepared, Maybe you can't afford everything at this moment, but at least have the goal to get everything you need for recording audio for your video. A 2 channel recorder is fine, but plan on a multi-channel recorder too. 800.00 for a DR-680 is not a lot in the big picture. Have a decent stereo mic. (Also have a hyper, a shotgun, and a wireless.) It's easy to set up a stereo mic, and any live event will sound better if you record the room as well as the board, AKA "Matrix" recording. Get the adapters and cables now and forget about them. You'll be stoked when an issue comes up and you have the solution. Aspire to be "Johnny on the spot" and you will not be at the mercy of the inevitable lameness of anyone you depend on for anything at an event that you aren't running.

I know you're talking weddings, but in general a lot of this applies.

Cheers

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I don't think it's quite that simple. What comes out of the speaker may have gone through an overall room equalizer, which you do not want; and there may be differences in level, too.

Right. And there are pros and cons. Your example was, painfully, a good one, Chad. Depending on the event, getting a pre-fader feed might be helpful. Or, in a different situation, it might leave mics open that should be off, or give a bad mix.

Two issues not addressed are various levels, and overall room EQ.

Scenario 1: no room equalization, amplified speakers.
In this case, the "line out" or "main out" from the mixer will go directly to the amplified speakers. A loop-through feed from the speaker will be the same as "line out" from the mixer. "Tape out" will probably be the same mix but possibly a different level. (As we all know, there are different standards for "line level", so you really need to consult the manual for each specific mixer.)

Scenario 2: no room equalization, separate power amp and speakers.
In this case, you do not want to record from a speaker tap, because the signal going to the speaker will have gone through the power amp. It will be much higher than line level, and will include any noise and distortion from the power amp.

Scenario 3: room equalizer in use ahead of amplification.
In this case, the "line out" or "main out" from the board feeds into the equalizer. The equalizer output feeds to the power amp, or to amplified speakers. You want to record directly from one of the outputs on the board. If you record at the speaker, the signal will have gone through the room equalizer, so it will not be flat. You want a flat signal for the recording so you must get that directly at the board.

The safe choice is always to record directly from the board. Otherwise, you need to be aware of whether or not the DJ is using room equalization, and whether he's using amplified speakers, or separate passive speakers and a power amp. Also, "tape output" is probably the best choice. On some boards, that might be ahead of the main faders (or else you can get a sub that's ahead of the main faders) and that will eliminate problems with the DJ changing main output level to compensate for changing noise levels in the room.

IMHO, it's simplest always to get the signal at the mixer... probably tape out. Less worries in the long run.

But, as I said, Chad's example was excellent. It's more than an "electrical" question. You need to be prepared for the "Board Op (or DJ) Surprise" that will bring you down.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Another little surprise that DJs often dish out is a nice blast of feedback during the first toast. This is the way these 'entertainers' establish their volume level. They crank it up until it squeals and then back it off a bit. They sometimes will do this 2 or 3 times before they are happy with it. When that happens every mic in the room will pick up the squeal whether it's on a recorder, camera or anything else. I always have two cameras recording during the toasts both aimed at the speaker. That way I can edit out the squeal without looking like I did a jump-cut and took something out. You can switch to the other camera when you edit and cut out the squeal. Almost always when this happens, people stop talking until the feedback stops. I just shot a wedding where that happened three times during the reception toasts. One of the feedback episodes was so bad that the speaker (the groom) took two steps back and looked very annoyed. I cut that piece out and switched cameras at the same time. You cannot tell anything happened. That sort of scowling reaction isn't something you want to leave on someones wedding video whether or not it was your fault.

There are some really professional DJs who are a pleasure to work with. They know their stuff and they won't hand you any surprises - at least not very often. Unfortunately they are in the minority. When the DJ shows up and look like a punk zit farmer or beta test site for drugs, watch out, you're going to have a tough evening. The more independent you can be from these jokers, the better.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Not quite. The "Tape Out" is post main mix fader so it tracks with the master output coming from the XLR main out but it is at -10dBv consumer line level while the XLR outs are at +4dBu studio line level. But riding gain on the Main Mix fader does adjust the levels coming from the Tape Out as well as that of the speakers. If at all possible try to take your audio from the board from one of the Aux or Monitor bus sends as they will be pre main mix output fader and not subject to the level variation caused by the board operator riding gain on the speakers.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

You mentioned that the "drums" are coming through the sound sytem. So this is more than just a DJ with a DJ console. Right? Sounds like you are saying you want to record the band as well. Rarely will you get a good band mix off a mixing console unless you are taking a feed from an Aux mix that someone is monitoring. For a decent band mix I recommend that you find a sweet spot in the room to place a mic. Probably up high away from crowd noise and place where you get a good mix of speaker and stage sound. If it is just vows and MC that you are looking for then taking a out from the board will work fine. You could probably get decent sound micing the speaker assuming there are not ground loop hums or other noises coming through the speakers.

Andy

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

I just spotted the mention of drums - which made me too wonder if it's a bit more than a few CDs? The assumption was made that everything was miked up, so would be balanced. Not so! In smaller venues, the back line amps the guitars/keys and bass player use make quite a lot of noise on their own, and the drummer is a loud source on his own - so the mix the sound man produces has less drums in it because they're already loud. Much time is spent getting the quieter sources up to the total level of the others, so if there's a sax, or flute and voices, they will be only through the PA, so will be higher in level than the drums - because they don't need any more. As a consequence, a feed direct from the mixer will sound very strange - often bass light and a bit thin sounding. Even with the best operator, you will get a level - which if they are not too busy, they'll keep an eye on (not ear - they just monitor the led meter on your output channel) What you actually get balance wise is very hit and miss. Their primary aim is good room sound, not video feed balance.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Still a bit confused... is it correct to say that the Aux or Monitor bus sends the same mix as the speakers (i.e. the same "proportions" of each input) except for overall gain? Thanks again, this thread is super helpful.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Firstly, are you just recording toasts & ceremony? Or will there be a band going through the PA too?

Without getting too involved with trying to get the DJ to give you specialized feeds, I have found that just getting a "Tape Out" feed of the board has worked fine for these small sound requirements, i.e. one or two people talking through a mic. Let's not make it too complex here. The big thing is to talk to the DJ/Sound person as far in advance of the event, to see what they can give you, and so you have time to get the proper adapters.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

No, they don't. The aux busses are parallel to the main bus. Each channel strip sends to each bus separately. The aux busses also have completely separate output levels, independent of the main mix. I could, for example, send a mic on input channel 2 to aux 1 out without it appearing in the main mix at all, or the other way around - have it in the main but not send it to aux at all. Or I can send it to both. The output from those busses will also have its own level control completely independent of the main level. By using an aux out you can setup a proper recording mix to come out of the aux while the board op does his thing with a house PA mix on the mains, and the two won't interfere with each other.

There are variations from manufacturer to manufacturer and between different mixers with a given manufacturer's lineup. The best bet is to download the manual for the specific model you'll be working with and study the block diagrams and routing info. It can be bewildering. My Mackie 1642 has direct outs on each mic channel, 4 mono aux busses with their own outputs with the input channels routable to any or all of them in any combination, four submix channels with their own outputs that can either send a contribution to the main mix or out inpdendently, the main outs and a tape out, plus a mono out that sends a mono mix tapped off the mains post-fader. Then there's also a set of tape level inputs and aux inputs as well!

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

>>By using an aux out you can setup a proper recording mix to come out of the aux while the board op does his thing with a house PA mix on the mains, and the two won't interfere with each other.<<

Mostly true except the trim on each channel strip will effect both the house mix and the aux mix.

Andy

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Thanks again Steve and those of you who have taken the time to clarify this stuff. Really, really useful!

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

True. The aux taps are post-trim, post-hpf. Some are tapped off pre-EQ and pre-fader while some can be set to come off the channel either pre- or post- EQ and fader. But trim is not properly used to adjust the level of the channel in the mix, rather it is to set the level of the input to the channel strip

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

>>But trim is not properly used to adjust the level of the channel in the mix, rather it is to set the level of the input to the channel strip <<

True the trims are not used to mix a performance but they will more than likely be adjusted during the performance which will alter the aux mix. This is important to understand and emphasises another reason to monitor the Aux mix if you want a good final mix.

Andy

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

Using an aux mix, or maybe even an unused matrix output on the groups, if it's a bigger clever board is fine - but when do you get to try this out? Sound checks are usually tight for time, and the band may not have extra time for setting your mix. On top of this, some bands basically do line check and eq, and don't set a mix at all - the engineer doing this during the first song. Quite common when time is tight, or that the venue has other things going on and don't want a full scale song performed.

The other thing is that you are asking for services from their sound op, and there's no guarantee they'll accommodate your request. Giving you a simple mirror of the output is one thing - giving you a balanced mix is another. If you want this kind of thing, you need to sort it in advance, not on the day - or you might get the response that they don't have any spare auxes, or they're going to be making radical gain changes which might ruin your output. Just an excuse to get you out of their hair!

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

This is for a wedding video and no one should expect a good recording off of the house mix. Even if you had someone else mixing the Auxes you wouldn't have good enough isolation to hear the mix properly in your headsets.

It is also not reasonable or usually asked that one sound engineer do a house mix and an aux mix at the same time. You will end up compromising both mixes. Additionally it is very unlikely that every thing will be miced unless the wedding is in a huge venue. So doing a seperate mix is out of the question. As I mentioned earlier the thing to do is stick up a mic or a pair of stereo mics in a sweet spot in the room and call it a day.

Andy

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

If I'm recording music I always run a pair of stereo mics and/or my Sony D50 recorder's mics in a good spot to get a full room mix and also grab the record out of the board into a separate recorder. I sync in Vegas and mix to taste and use the Antress Modern Limiter plug in to tame any peaks.

Re: Off the board, or off the speakers?
 

That's a "Matrix" recording, and usually the best you can do for most things, given that the sound person needs to concentrate on their job not ours.