Vive Surround Microphone
 

Dear sirs,

I am considering buying this microphone for my video camera and would like to request any user experience from other members.

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

if you can suggest other similar product please inform.

Regards

Jalan

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Appears to have good reviews.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/500287-REG/Cascade_Audio_VIV100_Vive_Surround_Sound.html

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Hi, Jalan............

IMHO (and I don't claim to be a Guru on this subject), which is based only on what I've read on the B&H site and a little experience of real audio capture, that thing is JUNK!

You can't even get single channel audio with any clarity under $400, Dolby 5.1 for $100? Get real.

These rip offs are breeding faster than rabbits.

Run, don't walk, away from this, no matter what the reviews say.


CS

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

"Similar products?" If by that you mean real surround sound microphone systems, try googles on "Soundfield ST450" and "Holophone."

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Have you actually bought one? How do you know this then?

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

megabucks. How can Panasonic put in a decent 5.1 mic in its new camcorders but a separate microphone is too hard to find for a decent price?

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Well, let's start with the physical / electronic facts, shall we?

It is simply NOT POSSIBLE to pump 5.1 surround down a standard dual core ANALOGUE mic cable into ANALOGUE pre amps in a camera and expect anything to produce 5.1 surround from the resultant mess, can't be done, simple as that.

So, the claim for 5.1 surround must be bogus, hence the entire product, for a paltry $100, has to be a scam.

Look, buy it, try it, you're happy, everybody is happy, but just don't come back here saying you weren't warned, simple as that.

The reason the products Steve pointed to are so expensive is that to get "the real deal" costs magabucks, end of story.

I will take this with a seriously large pinch of salt: First I've heard of it and simply cannot see how that is possible with one (1) on camera mic.

Whatever, serious video/ audio/ lighting etc etc etc is a seriously expensive business, friend, and there simply is no such thing as "cheap" in this business, and if it's "too good to be true", well, it most certainly is.

Caveat Emptor, Jalan, never forget it, that's hard earned cash going down the drain.


CS

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

OK. Thanks

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Any mic claiming to do 5.1 or surround is a piece of junk and any sound recordist trying to record 5.1 on location for video or film needs his head examined.

5.1 is best produced in post prod where it can be controlled and made to suit the edited images, even recording stereo on location can be a challenge as once anything is edited together the sound field can jump all over the place.

OK there are microphones that can be useful for recording stereo or even multi channel atmos or wild tracks for use in post prod but any domestic camcorder with 5.1 surround capability is just doing a bodge encode matrix from a stereo mic and from what I have experienced in my 30 years in post the results are not ideal and you are better off setting it to stereo or even better plug in a mono external mic and get it closer to the sound source and do any stereo or 5.1 in post prod.

FYI panasonic do not put a 5.1 mic in their cameras they put a stereo mic in them and do a bodge matrix to encode an AC3 5.1 signal, it is in no way true 5.1 and is a huge compromise that can actually cause even more problems than it is worth, it is a gimmick thought up by the marketing people to shift camera's and as said once you start to try editing sound together it will give you big problems in post.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

It sounds like you already have your mind made up to get this...

The reason all the experienced guys here are warning you against it is because we know what it realy takes to create a true 5.1 recording. which a $100 dollar mic probably has zero chance in achieving, period.

It really depends what kind of shooting you are doing, to even determine if a 5.1 mic mounted to the camera is even the right thing to do.

here is a quote from that review "The mic puts out a stereo audio signal that is compatible with all Dolby sound-enabled audio receivers, including Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Digital 5.1 decoders"

so its not a true 5.1 mic, its a stereo mic that encodes stereo into 5.1. not the same as a true 5.1 recording which takes 6 discrete elements to be recorded.

But go ahead and buy it, and write a review for us.

hope this helps

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

So why does it sound failry good?

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

no one here is saying it doesn't sound good. and good is a relative term.

I don't think it sounds very good at all. no better than a handy-cam mic, but Im not the one looking to buy it.

what everyone IS saying is that it is NOT a true 5.1 mic.

so it really depends on what you are trying to achieve, if this is what you want to achieve then by all means buy it.. you are the one who's opinion matters anyways.

If you're looking for affirmation that your opinion is correct about this mic , you're not likely to get it here from seasoned pros.

Good luck

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Well on my pro dynaudio stereo speakers it sounds dreadful with extreme wide imaging and the whole image sounds out of phase, when I hit the mono button it all collapses and you get a very low level signal which means that they have just taken some capsules and done some phase trickery to emulate surround.

Buy it if you wish but it ain't a 5.1 surround mic and as said will probably cause you more problems than just recording mono or stereo and doing surround as it should in post prod.

Any mic can sound fairly good but if you end up with a recording that has major imaging or phase problems you will have serious trouble trying to get a decent competed audio sound track.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

5.1 mics (good ones, anyway) are most useful for live events. Set up one stand in a live crowd and you have one 5.1 source without phase issues. Add other mics for the sports field or performance stage, mix and deliver.

For narrative work that will be mixed in post there's no need for 5.1 capture.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Totally agree with that Jon and the calrec soundfield mic is still in use by the BBC at wimbledon and other live sporting events.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

On the Panasonic3CCDuser site in 2006 the earlier version of this Vive mic called the SSM first appeared. As site moderator I bought one to review the summary of which was, the SSM is a $50 consumer gimmick with the low end non existant below 200Hz. It's designed to mount on a consumer video cam where the pix would take precedence with the 'surround' sound taking a distant 2nd place.

However some members bought one to go with their popular Pana GS400 vidcams and home theatres.

Many reported satisfactory results eg: recording in the middle in school sports crowds where the soccer mums get very vocal.

Around 2008 SSM closed their doors and the mic resurfaced with new owners .. as this Vive, same shape with apparently a better low end. As with the SSM you can plug a lav mic into the Vive to record narration on location.

SURROUND SOUND Microphone - UNIVERSAL - | eBay

Canon also sell their SM-V1 consumer surround mic.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/675990-REG/Canon_4464B001_SM_V1_5_1_Channel_Surround.html

Cheers.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Take two mics, any mics will do as long as they work and stick them at a short distance apart and then reverse the phase on one of them and you will pretty much get the same effect!

As for a stadium take four mics and put them in each corner and pan them to the four surround speakers, put a shotgun on the camera and make it the centre mic and as for the LFE you can feed the sum from all those mics to get the low end sub channel!

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Holophone's big win a few years ago was that it was used at the Grammys. According to the audio engineers, they struggled to get surround audience mics without phase problems as well as the visual clutter and physical routing that multiple mics would cause. Plonk down a Holophone in the middle of the audience and the problem was solved - for the audience part anyway. They still had to mic the various announcers and stage acts and mix in recorded material to produce the full show.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Thank you Allan for the positive comment.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Is it me or does this thread seem like a marketing tool for this toy mic rather than a sensible discussion about 5.1 surround production?

Buy it if you wish and I have no more advice to give other than good luck trying to use it!

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

No marketing from me Gary. Just sharing reviews I have found online. Unless you have it you cannot 100% state if it is a toy can you?

PS is DVinfo only for 'professionals'?

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

I think the laws of mathematics and physics dictate that you cannot cannot produce true 5.1 channel sound with only three mic elements (which is what you'll find inside this mic, according to the review). You cannot produce 5.1 channels of directional and frequency-selective sound and send those discrete channels over two analog wires. So this cannot be a true 5.1 channel mic. And if you don't keep the channels discrete when recording, the matrixing process will create lots of editing issues later. There's no room for discussion there.

Furthermore, the laws of common sense dictate that you cannot make three professional quality mic elements, put them inside a case, attach a cable, and market the whole thing for $100.00, any more than you can manufacture a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mahindra. If that were possible, then competition would have driven down the price of professional quality mics. So, without owning one, it is safe to say that, in comparison to the mics used by the professionals in this forum (and around the world), this mic is a "toy."

If you want to believe it's a good mic, that's your prerogative. Perhaps you also believe in UFOs, or believe that the sun rises in the west; that's your prerogative, too. The review you quote is copyright by "Ocean Street Video" which seems to be a collection of drag racing videos. Hardly a known website interested in high fidelity sound reproduction. (IMHO if you spend enough time around dragsters, which are very loud, you'll damage your hearing, in which case you won't be able to evaluate anything very well.) If you prefer to get your audio opinion from drag racers, rather than from audio professionals, that's your prerogative too. Presumably you came here looking for advice; you've gotten it. Your repeatedly linking to the same [drag racing] review will not convince the people here that they are all wrong.

But if you want to believe that review, and want to try that mic, that's certainly your prerogative. And, in fact, it might make you happy. (IMHO, the less you know about audio, and the less experience you have, the more likely you are to like this mic.) It's your money and if you want to spend it after receiving a lot of good advice to the contrary, please feel free to do so.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

But as a pro I reviewed what I heard from the demo you posted and it is not a valid 5.1 microphone, it is just messing around with phase to change the spatial image, if you think you know better then go ahead and try to do 5.1 with it.

Fine if you wish to ignore what pro people say and just buy it and waste your money, that is your choice and if you wish to know better than pro people who do this as a job then that is fine too, just don't expect to get decent results and certainly don't ask us pro's to help you sort all the mess out via these forums.

Oh and you best contact some of my ex colleagues from AMS Neve and pro's here as they will be more than happy to buy it if this is an easier solution to all that messing around they have to do to get decent 5.1 surround: Skywalker Sound Warner Bros. Post Production

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

The test is easy. Plug it into your stereo input and see if 5 audio tracks suddenly pop up on the editor timeline. Actually don't bother with the test, if your camera has a 3 circuit standard jack mic socket, then you have two channels. Even if the mic was able to do some clever encoding, how would you decode it? You can have an m/s mic, and record it to two-track, but you have to set your mixer up with a matrix to get stereo back. The cheap panasonics record to multiple tracks so you do have 5.1, but listening to it doesn't really give you what a home cinema system would consider to be 5.1. Dropping the left and right and listening to the rear doesn't sound much different to the front.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

The thread title says it all. In post 1 Jalan asked for comments on the Vive mic and my post 17 is obviously reporting what happened on the Panasonic3CCDuser site.

Canon thinks enough of the concept to market their 'consumer' SM-V1 mic for $178 and the customer reviews for it on BnHs site, are almost identical to the ones we received back in 2006.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/675990-REG/Canon_4464B001_SM_V1_5_1_Channel_Surround.html

Respected DPA Microphones also likes the concept and offers a professional version at $3699.08 ..

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/631744-REG/DPA_Microphones_5100_5100_Mobile_5_1_Surround.html

Jalan, DVinfo is for everyone :)

Cheers.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Thank you Allan, a very friendly, gracious response you have served. :)

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Gentlemen..............

Can we put this argument over a $100 mic to bed?


Too true. Allan, I wholeheartidly agree and so will every other contributor to this thread, without hesitation.

However, this thread started here:



And from there on in it simply went downhill, to my mind, at least.

We were asked for our opinions, opinions have been put (even though most have never actually tried it and wouldn't in a fit!).

End of story, I think this one should end where I started, which was here:

It's either sh*t or bust, Jalan, up to you.


CS

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

All the best Jalan and don't take our attitude as pro's too much to heart, we are just very passionate about our subject and personally I don't like any product that claims to do 5.1 surround for such low cost as we spend a great deal of time and effort to produce it properly in post prod.

It tends to de-vaue peoples perception of what we do as pro audio operatives and we end up with people thinking that they can make cinematic pro movies for low cost, you may think it does not affect things at our end but sadly it does as other less well informed pro's in the industry then think this is all that is required to do the job and then don't hire pro people anymore.

It all then ends up in the hands of the post department to sort all the problems out that goes for pictures too and the use of cheap DSLR's has totally de-valued the role of the DOP and lighting cameraman in this country as anyone now thinks that if they have the kit that claims to do the job means that they therefore can do the job!

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

No problems Gary. I may not end up getting it as it could may well be just a waste of money, but good to hear different views. :)

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Hi Jalan, based on the replies we received for the SSM model even tho some users were satisfied, for *consumer* use I'd recommend you buy the Canon unit if you have any of the recommended cameras. Read the reviews.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/675990-REG/Canon_4464B001_SM_V1_5_1_Channel_Surround.html

But you need a domestic home cinema rig with Dolby Pro logic to get any results you'd be satisfied with.

Cheers.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Thanks you Allan but doesn't that only work on a "hot shoe"?

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

It's just you.

Thank you very much for pointing that out -- let's try to keep this key DVi policy in mind when posting here. Thanks all,

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Cheers Chris.

Jalan yes for that Canon unit, you need the cams they specify for their proprietary hotshoe feature. That mic gets its power via their hotshoe.

Cheers.

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

duplicate post

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Sorry to drag up an old thread but today I recieved TWO Vive mics for $60. I have so far only tried it on the 600D which probably isnt the best because the pre-amps are crap on that camera. There does appear to be a slight off balance to the layout if that means anything.

WHen spoken into the mic to the left side, it is sounding to the right a bit, but it could be my speakers/sound card. I know there will be those who 'warned' me, but for that price I havent lost anything. B&H retail them for $99 each! :)

I will continue my tests and any calibrations.

This is helpful as well.
Vive Surround Sound Microphone Review

Re: Vive Surround Microphone
 

Any stereo microphone will behave that way. Even if each side had a hyper-cardioid element (which is doubtful), you will still hear some "crosstalk" from the other channel. This is normal.

The only way to get a sound to come out 100% on one side and 0% on the other side is to pan it while mixing in post-production editing.