A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hi All,

I am new to this field and sound recording is not really something i have done a lot,
i have a Rode for my on camera mic and use a Zoom H4N for the ambient sound recordings .

My main focus area is wildlife.

Here is the idea i thought of using the Zoom H4N with a Parabolic Dish ****

The Zoom H4N is very decent recorder and with a parabolic dish it may be able to get to record better in terms of nature sounds .

Has any one ever had a setup with the Zoom H4N with such a dish before

Has anyone got suggestions of how to make this setup

You folks are into Audio very deep and may be able to think how this works, being new to audio recording i am unable to think this out.

Let me know what you folks think of this idea and is it workable.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

There is no fundamental reason it should not work. I would say go for it.

Remember that the Zoom H4n has two built-in microphones which point in opposite directions. So you will need to select ONE of them and position it so that the microphone is aimed at the center of the reflector. The sound from the other microphone/channel will be of no significant value.

A custom way of mounting the H4n will be required so it is positioned properly (sideways and at an angle) in front of the reflector. And in a position which puts the selected microphone at the focal point of the dish.

You will likely still need wind protection (foam and probably furry on top of it) unless you are in a dead calm.

Any handling noise will be recorded and maybe even amplified by the reflector. This includes noise from turning the recorded on/off, noise from adjusting levels, noise from headphone cable, etc.

Unless you are leaving it unattended, it is always better to monitor what you are recording. And of course monitoring is mandatory for locating the H4n at the focal point, and for initial aiming the dish.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Richard,

It didnt strike me that i will have to use only one mic of the zoom H4N now that will get me the second mic redundant . i thought i can use both the mics as with both i make good sound recording with nature.

Now thats a drawback.

i looked a parabolic dish on the Wildeye site Parabolic Reflectors for Sound Recording however i do not think this can take the weight of the zoomh4n mounted in middle with a custom fabricated attachment.
Thats why i think it should be some other Parabolic dish which can take the weight , the second issue is of making the whole rig holdable in hand or would it be needed on a tripod.

i would be using a furry cover on the zoomh4n , are you suggesting using one on the complete Dish

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

A common parabolic reflector "dish" has only one focus point. Unless you place the microphone at EXACTLY that focus point, you get almost no benefit from the reflector, and more likely just a bad "hollow" sound.

It might be possible to design a parabolic reflector with TWO focus points, but...
1) The microphones on the H4 are still pointing in the wrong directions. They must both be pointed towards the reflector.
2) You would be reduced to practically a monaural signal into both of the microphones anyway because of the small diameter of the dish relative to the wavelengths of sound. So there would be almost no practical benefit even if you went to all that trouble.

Note that there are parabolic reflector satellite antennas which have multiple points of focus. But the LNB antenna horns are pointed directly at the dish, and the wavelengths of satellite signals are many orders of magnitude smaller than sound waves.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/im...pPfjH8FUSWflkQ

It should not be difficult to create a mounting bracket for an H4n to hold it in just the right place in the focus point of any parabolic reflector. Of course it will be more sturdy than something meant to hold a tiny microphone. On the internet you can find many pictures of parabolic dish reflectors for microphones. Larger reflectors (or higher wind) would likely require use of a tripod.

The smaller you make the diameter of the reflector, the less low frequency response you will get. There are many websites that discuss low frequency pickup vs. parabola diameter.

Unless the wind is causing the reflector itself to make noise, you need protection only on the microphone head.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hi, Vishal................

I think you're making a rod for your own back with the current design of the sound system.

Personally, I'd use a lav in the dish, connected to one channel of the H4 "off dish", and for the second channel a wireless system with a omni/ shotgun/ insert mic type here (take your pick) positioned wherever you like within range of the wireless system.

You get two channels, one pin pointed, the other more wide, do a suitable mix, it will sound great.

You can use cable for the second mic, but that could be one heck of a lot of cable to trip over.

Just my thoughts.


CS

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

I know this may already be obvious, but be aware that the LF response of the dish system is limited by the size of the dish. For bird calls, general nature "rustling" and the like, a modest-sized dish will probably work fine. But anything below 250 Hz or so starts to require a fairly large dish.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hey Thanks folks for the suggestions.

I think that from the things i have read that making a Parabolic dish recording device with a zoom H4N would be more of a overhead and may have restrictive capabilities.

Has then any one used
Zoom H4N + 2 Shot gun mics may be ROde connected to the zoom H4n via the xlr ports.

may be the 2 shotgun mounted at the top of a handy pole and the zoom h4n mounted a foot below that with 120 degree wide setting .

I know i am imagining too much and am pathatic at physics, however has anyone used such a setup and any pictures of your sound recording setup.

do let me know

vishal

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Most wildlife sounds are actually recorded in mono as closeup sound and stereo general ambience may be added in post to give a general soundstage.

Your recorder with it's on board mic's will be OK for general stereo ambience but to get close up sound you will need a specialist mic.

The pro's tend to use long shotguns such as the sennheiser 815 or 816 and at a push a rode NTG1/2 or a 416 or AT 875r will get a more focussed sound than the stereo on board mic's but to get that real close effects takes a lot of time and planning and may involve rigging microphones some distance from your recording position. A parabolic dish can also be useful but needs setting up properly and the correct mic in place at it's focus point.

A good friend of mine is Chris Watson and you may wish to have a look at his web site and blogs to get more info: | Chris Watson |

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

There are loads of old second hand satellite dishes around, and if they have the LNB arm attached, you know where the focal point is, so you can just try it and see. Being mono is not remotely a problem, and stereo imaging at a distance isn't really possible from a narrow beam angle anyway. Imagine you are maybe 20 mtrs away, your dish is probably going to be so narrow that the 'illuminated' spot is quite small, so small accurate alignment is a must. Left and right within that very small area is not going to produce any meaningful separation, and if the sound source moves about within the frame so much that you need it to go left and right, then panning the mono dish with a bit of normal wide stereo ambience will work better. Sports TV use dishes quite often.

Broadcast Product Front Page

I had a bit of fun with two obsolete 2m sat dishes on tripod bases. We set them up a couple of hundred metres apart, and then by sticking your ear to the lnb 'hole', you could talk in a normal level voice to the person the other end - weird!

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

I would be interested to hear what tone an old sat disk has, the dedicated audio ones tend to be smooth plastic so a perforated old SKY dish will be interesting and will also pick-up sound from behind the dish!

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

At one stage I thought of trying a parabolic reflector for nature recordings but decided that the equipment would have to be too bulky to be practical for my purposes. There are also potential problems with frequency responses that may spoil your recordings. These problems are related to the diameter and focal length of the reflector.
I just did a Google “parabolic reflectors for sound” search and got 378,000 references. You may be interested in,
Parabolic Stereo

Instead of a parabola I currently have a sensitive microphone with very low self-noise so that I can use a high gain setting. With this set-up I can record sounds that I cannot hear but I have to use an intricate suspension system to reduce handling noise picked up by the high gain.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Note that there is an online forum specifically dedicated to recording nature sounds. I have to believe that this topic has been discussed before over there and may even be a FAQ. naturerecordists : E-Mail group of individuals interested i They have favorite microphones with very low self-noise.

Parabolic dish reflectors are not wide-band devices. Their low frequency performance is limited by the diameter of the dish relative to the wavelength of sound. Not unlike the similar phenomenon with "shotgun" microphones where the low frequency directionality depends to a large extent on their length.

Satellite receiver dishes (DirecTV, Dish Network in the US, et.al.) are rather shallow and make up only a small segment of the parabolic curve. They also typically have asymmetrical profiles with the LNB feedhorn offset. I would expect that their performance may not be as good at audio wavelengths as more complete profiles.

The major satellite providers use several adjacent satellites to support services with "500 channels" for their couch-potato special customers. The shape of the parabola is modified to cover a wider profile of two or three satellites, but they are spaced at only 2-3 degrees apart. That is many miles/km out at the Clark Belt in outer space at an altitude of 22,000 miles, but essentially nothing for "stereo" purposes down here on the surface of the planet.

Reflectors made of mesh (expanded or perforated metal) are only effective at frequencies determined by the particular pattern. Expanded metal 3-10 meter BUD (big ugly dish) antennas were popular for the C-band in earlier times of more primitive satellite technology. They presented less of a "sail" profile to be blown away by the wind or to collect snow. But they are useless (transparent) for the higher-frequency Ku-band DBS (direct-broadcast satellites) that are used in modern times.

And at the other end of the spectrum, expanded metal reflectors are effectively transparent at audio frequencies and useless for parabolic reflector purposes. Metal screen forms a good barrier (reflector) to radio frequencies. We commonly make "Faraday cages" out of copper screen. But you can hear (and see) right through them as if they didn't exist at very low audio frequencies and very high light frequencies.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

"Instead of a parabola I currently have a sensitive microphone with very low self-noise so that I can use a high gain setting. With this set-up I can record sounds that I cannot hear but I have to use an intricate suspension system to reduce handling noise picked up by the high gain."

Per the above, the Audio Technica BP4025 uses 1" capsules (low self noise) from the AT4050 series and sounds pretty darn nice.

I reviewed it a year or so back and was out in my suburban back yard on a Spring morning when I saw my neighbor walking up the street. When she was about 150 feet away, I heard a click. I thought, "that sounds like someone clacking chewing gum."

I started walking to her and when we met I asked if she was chewing gum. Yup!

About parabolas; I hear they suffer from some pretty weird frequency response anomalies due to the physics of the dish.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: Go for it and let us know how it works for you! Without unbridled experimentation, progress is slow.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Friends,

All of this is very helpful and yes i am going to build it and even share the results here including the design.

I guess when we think out of box we make more progress

TY Ford , you nailed it in " Without unbridled experimentation, progress is slow"

now i am reading a lot all the links you folks provided and what all i can get on the net, i have one bird sound recording person around who uses a telinga , makes decent sound recordings with it however the best nature sound recordings i have found till date are from " http://www.listeningearth.com.au/LE/index.php"
They are just the best i have seen till date in terms of the quality and variety of nature sounds they produce. Have written to them too for help and will see what their response is.

Will post what i finally choose to put into the final rig

Till then welcome your suggestions as they will define a lot of what i will get.

Note that in India i dont get to try equipment before i buy and have to import it from sites like bhphotovideo , etc

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hi Vishal,

Here's a link to the recording I made with the Audio Technica BP4025. The one in my neighborhood.

Dropbox - ATBP4025ambi08.wav - Simplify your life

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Not all satellite dishes are perforated. Some manufacturers (those with no scientific background) thought this would reduce wind resistance and prevent flying dishes; however, at any significant wind speed, the turbulence through the perforations creates nearly as much wind load as a solid dish. Some manufacturers just made them perforated to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs.

Better dishes are solid.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Ok now few more hours of reading done and trying to list out the combo

Base recorder as Zoom H4N

Micro Boompole - 3-Section Boom Pole

Rode NTG-2 x2

Dead Cat Wind Muff for NTG-2 Microphones x2

Pearstone - 3-Pin XLR Male to 3-Pin XLR Female Audio Cable (6') X 2

some adaptor which can fit 2 of the NTG 2 on top and the zoomh4n in the middle

does this look decent to record on the 4 channel active recording on the zoom 4 n

the microboom pole may be even a 3 stage pole with a tripod base

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Vishal.............

I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to achieve here.

Why two Rhode mic's? You can't get stereo no matter how many mic's you use.

If you mount the H4n some distance behind the Rhodes, should all four mic's pick up the same sound, the H4n sound will be out of phase with that from the Rhodes. If you're going to mix this down to two tracks there's no telling what issues you're going to have.

Given that the pre - amps in the H4n aren't exactly stellar, you'd be better off using one Rhode mic and feeding it into a mixer with known excellent pre - amps and feeding the o/p to both inputs of the recorder at line level.

Just to make matters worse, two Rhode mics on the end of a boom pole, with a H4n half way down it, plus cabling and the boom pole itself, is one heck of a handfull, no matter how you look at it.

Trying to navigate anything but totally level flat ground is going to be a nightmare, and don't even think of "going bush" with it.

[I have tried the whole "bird song" thing with a Rhode boom and one (1) mic cabled to a Zoom H4 on my belt. Nearly broke my damn fool neck just trying to negotiate my own garden. That both mic and boom survived the experience unscathed I put down to Divine intervention.]

Then there's the mention of a tripod base. Something else to carry.

Then, how are you going to cantilever all that mass on a tripod base without using counterbalance weights?

Even more weight to carry.

Suggestion:

1 X Rhode on the end of the boom pole. No H4n anywhere near it.

1 X Excellent mixer and H4n in a shoulder carry bag.

If you want second channel sound, mount the other Rhode (or something) on a super light mic stand and place it "somewhere", but cabled or wireless to the second mixer i/p.

"Butt plug" wireless transmitters for both mics sure is going to save some nasty cable related moments, at the cost of the noise floor, but you can't have everything.

I think you're going to have to accept the fact that stereo is off the table unless the bird (or birds) is captive and in a controlled environment, hardly the "wild bird song" I assume you're after.

Back to the drawing board time?


CS

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Yes i guess its right Chris, i need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that can work more efficiently

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

OK, Vishal, time to press the "Reset" button on this and go back to first pricipals.

First Question: Is this an Audio only venture or are/ will you attempt to do Video at the same time?

If it's the former, I can see it doable for one person, if it's the latter, it's looking pretty iffy.

Second Question: What is the total budget figure you can throw at this, absolute top whack?

No point designing a Rolls Royce solution for a Penny Farthing budget.

Third Question: What Audio gear do you currently posses, and I mean "all of it"?

There may be something in there that can be pulled in to make up the numbers and keep the budget from blowing out.

Fourth Question: This is bird song specific, right?

If you're going after tigers & elephants as well, this gets a bit tricky.

For the rest of this post I'm going to make some assumptions regarding the above questions and the answers thereof, they may be wrong but, if so, let me know.

Let me use: Audio only; $5,000US; None. Bird Song only.

OK, so I think we've established that the boom pole/ end mic thing isn't exactly what might be termed a "stellar idea" for a number of reasons.

So, back to what is required.

Must be one man transportable and operable, max. weight, all up, no more than, ooh, say, 6 kilos.

Now, I think it fairly safe to say that getting the mic to the birds isn't as easy as it sounds (see boom/mic above), and that the birds aren't going to come to you, unless you have nectar feeders that will come to sugar sources when times are hard, as we have here.

So, the sound needs to to be collected at some distance removed from the target.

The only collection method I can think of that falls in the "under 6 kilo" and "under $5000" and has the collection ability to get sound from a distance, is something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/678033-REG/Jony_JONYSHOT_JonyShot_Parabolic_Microphone_Dish.html

Note that the price shown is for the dish only, no mic, pre - amp or anything else, so add $1000 plus to that figure to get a working system.

Upside, it's a 24" dish, good, it's getting up there for useabilty,not so good. It weighs 6lbs/ 2.7kilos, not so good, but does have a tripod fixing, good.

The only other one I can find is this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/439438-REG/Crystal_Partners_BE4KSCLEAR_Lil_Ears_Parabolic_Microphone.html

This is a complete, out of the box, working system, nothing else to add but an operator and recorder.

It's a 13" dish, not so good, but very easy to handle, good. Weighs 2lbs, very good and has a tripod fixing, good.

Now, before someone fires the "bass roll off" torpedo, just think about it for a moment.

Unless the bird in question is very, very large (think Ostrich), it's vocal chords in comparison to a humans are going to be minute, bottom line, the bass roll off has happened even before it's left the birds mouth, as in, there isn't much, if any, to start with (depending on what is termed "bass" of course).

The Lil Ears specifies a frequency response of 100Hz - 15Khz dependant on micophone, though there's no frequency plot so is a bit meaningless.

The Jony, being a 24", should have a better bass response, though "better" without data is a pretty nebulous term.

Whatever, if anything, the problem as I see it is at the other end of the spectrum, at the top end.

15Khz may well not rock your boat Vishal, as I don't know what application you have for this audio, nor do I know where this 15Khz is happening, dish geometry or material? Lav mic? Where?

[Edit: Well, it isn't the lav, Senny quote 20Hz - 20Khz. It might be a product of their chosen pre amp, it's down -2db at 20Khz. The Sound Devices MM1 seems to have better specs in this regard. If you'd still like a second "wide field" mic, you could always ditch the chosen amp and go for a decent 2 channel mixer instead, check out Sound Devices options]

Something you may wish to investigate in more depth and decide just how high you want to go and what's required to get there, remembering that whatever target you set for this upper limit must work throughout the entire audio chain.

So, those, as I see it, are your two easily available options.

All up, with all necessary additions if applicable, shipping, insurance, import duties etc say, $4000US.

You're under the $5000US budget I set, but it's still one heck of a lot of money.

If you can source such a dish in India you could probably knock up something similar for much less than half of that I reckon, it's, well, where to get a dish?

Forget satellite dishes, it needs to be transparent so you can see through it, it can't be an offset dish as most of them are and it must be much, much lighter than a sat dish.

So, there's a bit of stuff to be thinking about. Mull it over and tell us if it rings any bells or we have to hit that reset button once again.

Some links:

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipm...ide/index.html

http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/index.html

http://www.wildlife-sound.com/In_the_field.htm

and on and on it goes.......


CS

PS: If you really feel like nudging that budget figure, well, no, actually, giving it a good thump, more like, the big brother to the Lil Ears was hiding:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/439439-REG/Crystal_Partners_BE3KSCLEAR_Big_Ears_Parabolic_Microphone.html
Now you're talking SERIOUS money!

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hi

Let me get this right and give some background

i am into making a documentary and record videos with my DSLRs , 3 of them in all. Additionally i carry a wide, 17-40, a zoom 100-400 and a tele 800 along with a video tripod that can take the pain of all this on it.
yes i am a single man team and probably my SUV takes most of the load all the time :)

i am not trying to have a sound equipment in the 5-6 kg mark as it would not be possible for me to do all of it, and yes its a thought that came to me now after the feedbacks

The major reason of capturing audio is since the DSLR audio is crappy .

my aim is to get the surrounding sounds in the area, more of the morning breaking out, the day, the evening closing in. I know the sounds very well when it comes to where, how and when type however me never making any effort on recording of them makes it bad on my side.

Currently for sound i have the Zoom H4N and a Rode N3594 video mic, the zoom h4n with a good dead cat on it is interesting to record the surrounding sounds ,
There is a specific need to record the sounds of the birds around the area i am shooting , in particular a kingfisher in the ever green forests. Thats what is making it challenging hence wanted to attach a shot gun to it to be able to pinpoint more of a sound from one direction as i can see what i want to record in my case. ( Hence even am reviewing the NTG 3)

I am not currently even aiming to do sound recording for all the time but have a decent equipment to support me recording the surround sounds , yes in 4 months i am planning to record 4 different frogs :)
hence thought a shotgun of decent quality should be required. And yes most of the times where i will record i have streams and rains even though i will manage to keep the equipment dry.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Hi again Vishal,

What you are trying to do sounds easy but is in fact usually very difficult. The main problem is getting close to your sound source without either scaring it away or causing it to change its behaviour in some way. If you do use a shotgun mic, a parabolic dish or boom to reduce the effect of distance you still have to contend with wind and other noises. Even the best dead cat will do nothing to mask the sounds produced by wind as it passes through vegetation.

An alternative is to set your Zoom H4N to record at a suitable location and let the animals resume their normal activities while you back off for a while. This would require no new equipment unless you forget where you left it.

I have used this “let it run” technique for recording infrared videos of some of our local small nocturnal mammals. In this case I got the animals used to being fed at a convenient site and at a particular time. I then focused the camera on a branch that I knew they used, turned on my “lights”, adjusted my exposure with the aid of a fluffy toy animal and started recording. I would return when my media was all used. The first time I tried this I recorded a sugar glider within a minute of pressing the record button.

I am planning to do something similar for sound recording and have a recorder with a built-in timer so that I can, for example, record the dawn chorus without getting out of bed. I also have a long lead so that I can set my microphone a likely site while I operate the recorder at a distance.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

Alastair thanks again for the reply , each of the replies is really teaching me something new and giving me better perspective by the day.

I can reach very close to the sounds i want, i do manage to sit in a hide set up very early in the morning and the mornings exactly sound as they do normally.
Actually now i am so used to it is that in the morning i now tend to write the sequence of how the morning breaks and the night is taken over by the advent of the day.
"The last bird of the night where i record is a collared scoops owl, the call of it is broken in the morning by a screech of a Malabar whistling thrush which actually is more of drawing the line, then the Malabar whistling starts singing and continues and normally joined by another. This duet can continue sometimes for nearly 20 odd minutes and it is a completely dominating voice. then the bull bulls come in and mingle before the confusing sounds of the malabar pied and the Malabar grey hornbills get in. " actually i can go on :) this is all i need it on the digital media, something which my ears can hear.

after the suggestions here i have been reading the Birdforum , wildlilfe sound forums and many more and getting hints of the Sennheiser ME66/K6 being one of the best to capture the specific focused sounds. however i will keep on reading.

Re: A Crazy Idea, is it workable ?
 

OK, think I get the picture.

Interesting you mention the ME 66/ K 6.

My standard "on camera" mic is a ME67/ K6 long shotgun, backed up by a ME66/ K6 medium shotgun and a ME64/ K6 cardioid.

I must admit, the ME64 hardly gets a look in in urban environments, as it picks up stuff from absolutely everywhere, making the soundscape terribly confusing, surreal even.

Very handy for atmosphere applications in remote locations where there is no man made noise of any sort.

The 67/ 66 combo are the real workhorses, the 67 especially, for keeping the sound where I'm shooting and nowhere else.

The 66 really comes into it's own, hand held, for street interview work in noisy urban environments.

Both can be, and are, used occasionally "off camera" on mic stands, either tethered or wireless, depending on distance, terrain and requirements.

Probably getting a bit long in the tooth as technology goes, but they sure get the job done, and with the Senny lav for my wireless setup, make a perfect "do anything" system.


CS