Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Hi all.

After watching a dozen video review/tip guides/set ups and reading a load of google search results im still a little lost on my new bit of kit.

Rode Videomic (not stereo, not Pro). Using it with a Canon 600d.

Firstly I spent a lot of time reading about AGC only to find out that because the 600d has manual sound controls AGC effectively doesnt exist. Note: I dont know much about sound! On the mic there is settings for 0, -10 & -20db along with a high pass filter option.

I think my main problem is understanding the manual levels I can adjust within the camera and what settings I should have them at. Am I right in thinking the mic volume control in the camera is digital gain and the microphone settings (0, -10 & -20db) are analogue gain? The digital gain, ive read, should be set to almost 0 although I find that I need it at 50% and the mic set to 0db to get a reasonably clear and audioable level.

High pass filtering should be on for dialogue only?

Im filming a live performance next week and ill be able to test during sound check although the buttons on the mic are extremely small and annoyingly placed behind the battery that i'd like a few pointers before hand. Despite sounding terrible for dialogue should I be setting the mic to -10/-20 for live music and lower the digital gain as much as possible? What db level do I want to be peaking at for live music?

Shaun

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

See the sound recording section of the camera manual. AGC does exist and you can choose between using it or controlling the levels manually. There are no magic setting where you can say "in this scenario use those settings" - each situation is unique. What can be said is to leave the mic's own attentuation switch at 0 unless the sound is so loud that you're overloading the recording device. If the signal fed to the camera is too hot, set the switch to -10 or -20 as necessary. The ideal is to be getting optimum recording levels from however loud the sound is with the recording level controls set at about half to 2/3 of their range.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Thanks for the advice Steve. I do have the camera set to manual sound.

So in regards to filming a live band would you also say that the high pass filter is another setting that varies from gig to gig or is that option more clear cut?

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Hi pass will remove most of the bottom end of a bass guitar, so I'd not choose it unless you want/need to remove the bottom end. It's really for rumble reduction - which for speech means things like aircon noise and other low frequency annoyances. For music, you want to record as much as is there.

The other thing to watch out for is image shift. Depending on the band, and what is going through the PA, you can sometimes find an on camera mic can hear some very odd things - in some positions, you could find both of the internal capsules are pointing at the PA, which may not have certain things in in, as the amp or instrument on stage is loud enough. You could find that the PA gets recorded loudly while the bloke centre stage with the un-amplified sax is missing!

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Very helpful Paul. Sounds like being centered and face on (..obviously) to the band will be the best bet. Depending on PA set up (..obviously)!

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

People place cameras where they need them for the desired framing. Why does nobody ever consider that a microphone needs to be placed also for the proper perspective, or acoustic "POV"? Especially since there are no "zoom microphones" (dishonest vendors notwithstanding).

NOTE: Mounted ON TOP of the camera is virtually NEVER EVER the right place for ANY microphone. An extension cable is only a few $/₤/€ and it will have one of the biggest cost/benefit ratios of anything you have acquired this month.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Building on Richard's thoughts, a shotgun such as the VideoMic would not be my first choice of a microphone to use for recording a band. 'Guns are directional mics intended to isolate a single source from their surroundings. In a music context you might use one to pick out a soloist from the ensemble of to bring up a vocalist but not for recording the entire group. For a group, a mic with a wider pattern such as a cardioid or even better, a stereo mic or stereo pair, positioned as Richard suggests, would be a better bet.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Noted, although cost plays a big factor here. Im only low budget. Extension cables sounds like a good idea although for this particular event im filming space is extremely limited and I think im going to be extremely close to/in the crowd so having an extension wire running across the floor isnt a possibility (in this instance).

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Which would you prefer to do, figure out how to safely run a cable across the floor through the crowd or risk getting lousy sound so the entire shoot is a waste of time?

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

You need some of this:
(I wish I had bought shares years ago in the company that makes this stuff).

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

how about an h1 and let it record for most of the performance? wouldn't your sound change as you move around?

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

All filmed and went well. Sound recording was perfectly fine.

I think you need to understand the difference between low budget, one person shoots and a job where you are paid for a perfect set up.

I dont have a mic stand or extension cable/tape/a dedicated sound assistant and the client wasnt expecting me to have those. It was a come in and shoot it job. I got there early to test out and set the mic level and that was good enough.

Approaching every question on here with an answer geared towards a more professional set up isnt always helpful.


That said, I would like to make it clear im not getting my back up about it. What the client expects, regardless of budget is never set in stone and its always helpful hearing a more professional answer even if it doesnt relate directly to the situation you are dealing with.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Whether its paid or a hobby, there's pride in craftsmanship. Mic stands and XLR extension cables are not the exclusive pervue of the professional - you can get a perfectly serviceable mic stand for about $25 at your local big-box music store and a 50 foot XLR cable can be had for about the same amount. We're not talking about budget breaking expenditures here - it costs double the total it costs to add those items to your kit for a single full-up of the gas tank on my 10 year old Isuzu Trooper, fer crying out loud..

What the client expects of you should be less important than what you ought to expect of yourself and I believe that one's personal standards should be to never deliver a job that is in any way less than the very best your skills are able to produce. If that means you have to spend a couple of bucks in order to gear up to do it right, then that's what you do.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Also, stands and cables will last you over 20 years. That tank of gas might last two weeks. Dinner out? a few hours.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

I wish that tank of gas lasted 2 weeks! I average a tank a week at about $90 a fillup (72 liters at about $1.25/liter average for the past couple of years) plus about $100 a month in highway tolls plus an average of about $150 in train fares. That works out to over$500 a month just for the baseline cost of getting to and from my day job. Perhaps that's why I'm not very sympathetic over budget worries about the cost of a mic stand or a few hundred dollars difference in price between a bargain mic or recorder and a proper one that is capable of professional work. In the overall scheme of things a few hundred dollars in order to get the job done right is pretty trivial.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

$500/mo for transportation? Ouch. And the time cost on the road. Double ouch.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Yep, I'm usually on the road by 06:00 and getting home about 18:00 - 18:30. And that $500 is just operating cost, doesn't include the car itself, repair & maintenance, or insurance.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

I have the Stereo VideoMic Pro and use it with my Canon 60D. What setting do you use in live bands?

stelios

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

"I have the Stereo VideoMic Pro and use it with my Canon 60D. What setting do you use in live bands?"
Analogy: I have a automobile with 5-speed transmission, what setting do you use for hills?

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

There is no such thing as a "setting for live bands" or any other type of gig. It all depends on the band, the music, the venue, your mic position, etc. The only way to set it up properly is to do a "dress rehearsal" sound check for each shoot and experiment.

Pride
 

I think this is a phenomenal lesson. Money will come, however, the moment one compromises, the first person to know is your conscience.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

I have to chime in because I video live bands all the time. That earlier comment about a camera mounted mic being not good is odd. Camera audio, either built-in mic or shotgun, is essential especially when using syncing software like PluralEyes. You will never go wrong by having great camera audio...even if it will never get into the final edit.
My experience:
Camera will never give you good live band audio.
Being tethered to a properly placed mic on a stand is impractical... unless your camera is on sticks.
Your best bet at good sound is a field recorder. I use a Zoom H4n. You can get a feed from the PA board AND record with the built-in stereo mics. Set up your recorder next to the board. After you get that method dialed in you can get SPECTACULAR audio of bands. If you don't have a Zoom or the like ask the sound guy if he can record a CD off the board.
This is all applicable to capturing an over-all ensemble performance, a complete song,
the big picture.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

I quite agree, mixer left and right plus room stereo will give you something solid to work with - much depends on your relationship with the person doing the mix - some will be responsive, others a total pain in the bum.

I did love the gas price comment. Here in the UK at the moment, it is $2.25 a litre!

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

This is a great thread. "Audio" is a GREAT subject matter section!

The past week I was in travel status and when I returned this week I started putting together my camera and mic rig (kit? Still trying to learn the proper terms for everything.)

The kit (rig?) I've been trying to put together is something that I can use for making a video on a SAILboat. Read: it's breezy and windy most of the time. The second problem is there will be NO sound man onboard (Captain's rule). Also, there will be NO sound female on board (Admiral's rule!). Only one Captain and one Admiral will be on board.

The third problem is this is only a 35-foot boat so it's not very big and the cockpit is small. There is NO room to move around, or at least not much. No place to set up a tripod. So, How to do this?

Last month I picked up a Rycote Windshield with a Windjammer for the mic to deal with wind noise. This week I found a Stroboframe bracket that seemed stout enough to support the Windshield. Put together a home-made adapter plate and placed the Windshield on top, attached it to a quick-release, bolted everything to the Stroboframe bracket, mounted the camera, hooked up the wires, and voila! Whew! As of last night I had a camera and mic that I can use on the boat. I was Soooo Happy!!!

Well, maybe except for one thing. The sailing season is over and it'll be next year before I can try it out. Other than that, I can admire the rig.

Today I was playing catch-up on the posts here and came across one that rained on my parade. Talk about popping your bubble!

Richard: What's a (poor) guy to do? A cable is not an option. Lavalier? This is on my radar but even a cheap one is pretty pricy but I'm still looking but for "used."

Camera and mic rig:


Home made adapter plate:
Note:
Home-made adapter plate made from a piece of fairly heavy framing metal bought for $2 from Home Depot. Put this together yesterday. The fasteners are temporary until I can get something more professional looking and hopefully spray-paint the metal with black paint. After all, this needs to look really professional, right? The coiled pigtail is not shown.

The quick-release plate is a Manfrotto 3270 that came with the Stroboframe bracket when I bought it used.

The Rycote Windshield as a unit can be easily installed or removed with one hand thanks to the quick-release plate.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

The problem is one of physics and unfortunately Mother Nature is indifferent to one's budget and staffing limitations. While there are lenses that magnify distant images, there are few equivalents in the microphone world for distant sounds and none that would be practical to mount on a camera. By their nature mics are close working devices and the best place to position a mic for optimum sound capture is almost never the best place to position the camera for pleasing pictures. A short shotgun needs to be within no more than about 24 inches of the speaker's mouth - less if possible - for capturing normal level spoken dialog and a face shot with the camera that close often results in a distorted image with a bulbous nose a la Wallace Beery, Karl Maulden, or Jimmy Durante. The mic also needs to be kept aimed within a relatively tight circle surrounding the mouth else the sound goes "off-mic" with a resulting loss of quality and that might not result in the framing you'd like for the picture if the mic and the camera are locked together and and move as a unit. With rare exceptions your options are to either get the mic off the camera and boom it into the proper operating position, hence the extension cable, or put a hard-wired lav on the subject with an extension cable to the camera, or put a wireless lav the subject to link back to a receiver at the camera. Mother Nature really doesn't give us many more options without compromising the quality of the sounds we record.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Thanks for your kind reply, Steve, and the good explanation.

Like we used to say at work, "If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question." I pretty much knew what the "right answer" is but I guess I'm learning this the hard way.

That is so true and I understand this.

The physics part is understandable but I'm trying to do the best with what I've got. Sounds knda like a familiar refrain here, doesn't it?

Having said that, I'm also on the lookout for how I can improve the situation and a lavalier seems to be the only realistic next step but that's going to run several hundred dollars on the used market. A mid-level solution might be to have a small mic and a recorder on the subject and try and sync the audio in post but I've never done this before and dread even the thought of it. But something like a Tascam DR-40 can be had for a couple hundred bucks and would be nice to have in the audio toolbox for other purposes.

The Stroboframe can be adjusted vertically in very small increments but I don't have it set up to adjust horizontally. This is potentially possible but would take additional modification. 24"? I understand where Richard Crawley is coming from.

Compromise - the key word here. In the case where I want to record some music audio (instruments and vocalists), I'd want the minimum compromise possible. In this case, I'm much more open for less-than-perfect. The video and story-line, and let's not forget budget, is the most important so I'm open to a LOT of compromise but definitely not to the point of horrible.

Let's hope some good deal comes up in the next several months. One year it rained so much I didn't get out on the boat until July so I do have time on my side.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Don't forget, in most sorts of video program it's the audio that carries the story line - the pictures are visual aids that establish the locale where the story takes place and shows the audience the action. But most of the story and the mood is in the sound. Unless one is highly skilled in the art of the silent film, if compromise is necessary due to budget limitations it would be better to give up a little on the video side of things instead of the audio. (And even "silent films" weren't really silent - sound from musicians and FX artists in the theatres was a vital part of the audience experience. In fact, the term "sync license" applied to the use of music in a video soundtrack harks back to the days when music was performed live in sync with the action and mood of a projected film.) Try watching a TV show with the sound turned off then a similar show with the sound up but the picture dark. In which is it easier to follow the story? For many, many years radio dramas were very effective at telling the story effectively while using only sound to create the scene in the listeners' minds.

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Steve: Okay. I give up. This rig cost me less than $2 to put together, plus a few hours of drilling holes, filing, and cutting, to put together. I've got probably a half-year until the weather clears enough around here to go sailing (and then it'll be cold) so I'll be working on a Plan B.

As for:
Maybe we should try to bring back the "If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?"

The old radio programs have not gone away entirely, in spite of so much TV. Our local Public Radio station has the "Lake Wobegone" program that has some audio stories with sound effects. Just looking at the number of viewers on this web site one can see that the Audio section consistently has more than any of the upper categories. I wonder if the management here will ever consent to some sub-sections but I'll have to say that probably "Only The Shadow Knows."

;-)

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

John, I had a very similar Stroboframe - may even be the same model which I also endeavoured to pimp for shooting video. But in the end it was just too awkward to use in real life shooting despite it appearing to do the job when testing. Too difficult to handle and carry around, to put down safely, to hold steady when shooting etc. Shame because I really wanted it to work and to get some use out of the ancient and expensive Stroboframe.

You can get decent cages very cheaply now; thoroughly thought through and functional. Visit cheesycam.com for lots of on a budget tips. And through them the gearbox:

GearBox GB-2 - Video Accessory Cage w/ 15mm Rod Adapter by PNC | Photography and Cinema - Store

If you get the version with the attached rods it is very easy to put down safely. You can use risers such as Manfrotto style studs to made the handles taller if needs be. Use a collapsed / extended monopod for extra stability if required.

Your mic with wind protection would be difficult to accommodate on any heldheld rig but you could use a friction arm. They are readily available on Ebay in 7" and 11" version and with clamp and hotshoe versions e.g.

Variable Friction Power Magic Arm Kit (Short) For DSLR DV bh53 | eBay

Pete

Re: Rode Videomic - Live Band - Settings
 

Like your's, this rig I cobbled together is also a little awkward to handle. I haven't actually used it yet but just holding it, walking around the house, and showing it to my wife and explaining that this is what I want to film her with next summer on the boat, one thing I can say is, it isn't anything like handling the camera by itself.

On the other hand, I'm a bit of a loss for a better alternative. The Windshield I already had so there was no cost there. The Stroboframe I just bought and figured I could use it for something like maybe an on-camera light and there is room for a mic, too. Got this, with the little Manfrotto quick-release plate, for $70. There are other things I could use it for like maybe a monitor.

Making some video from a sailboat deck is going to be a challenge but I'm up to it. It's definitely going to be a challenge.

That's a great looking setup! I really like it and I can see where it can be very stable to sit down. Your suggestions for attachments to elevate the attachments are excellent, too.

Yes, that Windjammer is definitely BIG. Currently, the way I have it mounted on the metal plate and the quick-release, it is surprisingly solid. This part really works well. Unfortunately, it didn't get any rave reviews. ;- ( The good news is I have several months to come up with alternatives.

Thanks very much for the feedback and the links.