Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Here are some tips for those that asked “what should I have in my audio kit for AV integration?”

Fist, the answer is different for each person depending on your resorses. To keep this simple I will be referring to a simple one camera set up to record a ballroom presentation for corporate purposes. I am posting this for the guys that don’t have a lot of experience working in the AV environment but may find themselves doing so.

Begin with the end in mind and then put together your kit based on your needs.

Priority 1. To record all audio sources output from main mix into audience PA. This is often a feed going directly into the main camera. Levels are manually controlled, no AGC but I apply limiting with my own small mixer. Monitored at all times with headphones.

Priority 2. A backup recording of the same feed, with auto gain control on.

Priority 3. A backup recording of room PA NOT coming from the house mixer. A room mic, a horrible on camera mic if you have to, anything that will guarantee you get the PA audio if everything else fails. Record this backup in the best way available to you.

Priority 4. Sometimes I record “the room and audience” to be mixed in post. This is usually a shotgun mic. Under the stage facing the audience is a good placement if there is not a big sub there and no performers are going to be dancing on the stage. It is different for every room and show.

Chances are very high you are going to get a XLR feed with a line level signal. If your camera is mic level only, you will need a DI box, pad, or mixer to accommodate the conversion. Know your equipment and signal levels. How are you going to get from XLR to 1/8th mini if that’s all you have? I posted above in this thread about the basic survival kit I have on EVERY gig. But there is much more. Besides metal and plastic adapters I have most of those things in “patch cable adapters”. Those are usually a 36” cable with a different type of connector on each end. If you use hard adapters and end up with them sticking straight out the side of your camera you are asking for trouble in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is a damaged camera. And no audio guy wants some 6” tall series of adapters sticking up from an output on his board. Use the proper adapters and keep them to a minimum. DI boxes come in a variety of flavors and cost. A good, basic, passive box with XLR and 1/8” inputs and outputs is fine. And they usually have the always valuable ground lift switch.

What is coming out of that house mixer? One to ten mics. A variety of lavalieres, wireless handhelds, wired podium, isle mics etc. Keep in mind the average user of those mics will be an amateur that has little experience using them, with an occasional pro mixed in. That matters, your signals will be all over the place. There will also be computer audio and possibly video rolls from a variety of play back devices. These days you can count on someone playing some kind of audio clip downloaded from the internet no one has taken the time to normalize. Bottom line, smoking hot to barely audible signals! Ask the audio guy if there is a VOG mic. It will probably open the show and it will come in hot. Do not get hosed coming out of the gate. Also ask him if he is expecting any really hot clips and where they are in the show. He will know.

On his board he may give you an aux out, a monitor out, or a sub group out. His call, if he gives you an aux out make sure every pod gets turned up or you may find yourself missing an entire channel. No matter what you get he is going to set it and forget it. Make sure your levels are good before the show starts. I have the luxury of my camera guys working in concert with the audio guy because we are the same crew. If you are an outside vendor you will probably not get that kind of constant attention.

Your basic gear. And thank you to those above who posted theirs:

2 - 50 foot XLR cables, have a balanced XLR to ¼” adapter for them so you can handle either type of connection on his board outputs.
DI box, at least one
Mixer
Adapters and patch cables to suite your particular needs.
Ability to record a minimum of three separate tracks of audio listed above
Recording device other than the camera. I have a Marantz CF card deck with XLR inputs.
Good headphones.
Additional microphones to record PA or room noise. Record all tracks independently and mix in post.
That is the basic short list off the top of my head. Have fun and NEVER clip!

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Several years ago, someone came to a forum with the complaint that after shows, attendees seemed to gravitate and stand right on his cables, preventing him from wrapping in a timely manner.

My suggestion? Two Words. Fart Spray.

Madhatter Magic Shop - FART SPRAY

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

I've had to be that cranky audio guy on more occasions that I care to count. Many of the comments here on how to get along are spot on.

A couple things, though... While there are a lot of idiot sound guys, remember there are just as many idiot video guys. Most sound guys will be happy to give a feed of some sort if given prior notice that it will be needed. It may be mono, it may be stereo. If it is stereo, though, don't just take one side- it is half the mix and you may as well not take any- it will sound just as good.

If you are doing a live cut and playback, make sure you mute the send when you are recording. I don't know how many times I've had some video person cause feedback because they are playing and recording at the same time and it is all going to the PA. There is nothing a FOH engineer will hate your more for than screwing up their sound in the room.

I will provide an output whenever I can, but I will not provide cabling. If you need to set up in the back of the room and I'm near the stage, you better have enough cable to make it to your rig. As pointed out in the original post- when folks show up right before the show, I do nothing. My job has essentially started as soon as people are in the room. I will not patch at that point. There is usually plenty of time in setup- if you are there.

Another suggestion of an inexpensive piece to have in the rig: Atty Stereo Attenuator | Pro Audio Products | A Designs Audio I keep at least one of these on me at all times. That way you can control the level of your feed without bugging the sound guy.

Great thread and I'm happy to see the number of people here that "get it."

--Ben

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Reminds me of when I was still working (in the Test Instrumentation department of Ford's UK product development center). One of our engineers got a decimal place wrong, and orded three kilometers of low temperature 5 amp three core. It was only half used up when I retired eight years ago. Being low temperature is wonderfully soft and flexible.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

For UK readers this is a similar stereo XLR attenuator although having an ART isolation box or DI as well will also be useful as it will allow you to do a lot more.

IMG Stage Line ILA100 XLR Passive Stereo Volume Controller (XLR version) | eBay

As for DI boxes I use these Stagg ones, they are cheap as chips and offer stereo or dual mono operation.

Stagg SDI-ST 2 Channel Passive DI BOX + Mono/Stereo SW | eBay

They are also transformer isolated and you can lift the ground/earth on each channel as well.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

That's why my playback component TO the FoH mixer is always on a completely separate mixer at my end than his send to me...

Great catch, Benjamin.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

This has got to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on this forum. Particularly interesting because this is the field that I work in. I travel to around 40 or more shows a year in venues in the U.S. and Canada.
I am the video guy, not the audio guy. I fly everywhere so I don't have the luxury of carrying cables and all the gadgets you guys speak of.

I'm shocked to see that the thread doesn't include much talk about the client? The most important element in ensuring that I have everything that I need to ensure that my client has a successful show.

Before each show the client, myself and the A/V and house staff have a conference call, because we are all in different cities and can't meet face to face. The key is to remember that A/V company and myself have a common client that is footing the bill for both of us. On that call we identify all that takes place in the show. We have an assistant taking notes during the call. We establish names, positions and responsibilities up front, with a list of show day contact numbers and email addresses. What the A/V and house guys know from that call is everything that I need to be a success for the client. They (house) know here and what distance to place my riser. A/V knows that they run a mic or line level feed to that riser. We usually request a riser no more then 50ft from the stage. Not always possible., But we will learn that from the call in advance, as we have the house folks on the call as well, with floor diagrams.
After the call is complete, within an hour the call notes are compiled and an email is sent to the client and everybody else is cced on that email. One week before the show that email is sent again. Everybody knows in advanced who is providing what. I keep that email in my pocket in case myself or the A/V people have a memory lapse. Rarely ever had to use it. I did have one really ugly incident with the head A/V guy at a huge show over something they were supposed to provide. The guy was dead wrong. But I allowed myself to be provoked and totally unprofessional. That has not, and will never happen again. I see this guy on lots of shows. We resolved our differences and are the best of friends now.
I typically fly in a day before the show and meet everybody and huddle up with key people and introduce myself to the crew. If any problems arise now is the time to work it out. I look at myself and the A/V people as being on the same team with the same goals, a successful show for OUR client.

What I carry is minimal. I carry 2 10' XLR cables just in case you move the riser a foot or two left or right from where my feed was dropped. I carry one DI , 2 turnaround cables and one attenuator. (I do think it's good advice to carry the kit that a lot of guys mentioned...I just don't). All of my cameras have XLR's and can take line or mic levels.

Aside from that I find that most AV guys are professionals and are as invested in doing a great job just as I am. I always treat the guys with respect and help them out where I can. Another thing to remember is to forget all the bad things you heard about A/V guys. Maybe not all of them, but most of them have forgot more about audio then you and me will ever know.
And remember, 15 minutes to you is just that. 15 minutes to a A/V guy is an eternity. So when they say they will have it for you in 15 minutes and it's 30 minutes to show time, just relax.
Al

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

I do five camera concert shoots pretty much exclusively.

I'm a video guy who started as an audio guy, so I know enough to get there ahead of the sound check, and often before any mics are plugged in. I carry my own cables (with TRS adaptors) and rarely encounter a situation where it is not possible for the audio operator to accommodate me. But I always have my own pair of mics to capture the audience and to fall back on if the mix doesn't work.

The most useful tool I have is a tiny Rolls mixer, so I can pad down or boost their feed, and not have to ask them for anything during the show. Between that, the audience mic pair and the camera mics, I'll always be able to make something work.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Chris,

Very good approach! I use my Sound Devices 442 mixer for that, for several reasons. It sounds great and is well protected due to very nice input and output transformers. It has a very nice limiter that prevents accidents.

One never knows how a console is gainstaged. I can switch from mic to line input with the flick of a finger and use the 442 coarse and fine gain controls to give the camera what it wants.

Sometimes I use the 442 as a final stage, just for it's sound and limiters. Did that last month on a talk show mockup on a very big soundstage. All extemporaneous talk. We did the best we could to damp the reverb. But it was a green screen shoot and those green wall are hard and bounce the sound around a lot. I used a Shure FP410 automixer to close each mic when not being spoken into, which helped. From the FP410 to the 442 and then out to three cameras.



Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

In my day job I work as an Account Manager for an AV company. Reading the scenario described above made me want to pop an alkazeltzer. I always show up on Day 1 of the event, if the video guy who's running late needs an audio feed I make sure it gets done. If I have to roll-out the cable myself I will. At the end of the conference/event I am the one making the phone call to the meeting planner. The last thing I want to hear is for client to tell me that the video guy did not get an audio feed, your guys were not helpful, the video was important to us. I can't tell the planner, sorry the guys were a bit cranky coz they they did a 15 hour set-up the night before, they were busy attending to the key note speaker, your video guy was late. Do I want to kill the videoguy? Yes. But I would want to be the one telling the planner when I make the phone call " hello meeting planner, 30 minutes before the show started, your camera guy came asking for an audio feed, we made it happen. I believe this was never mentioned during the precon meeting.Next time let us know in advance if you plan to videotape the event or better yet ask the camera guy to come in an hour early. Btw when's your next event?"

No offense meant, just want you guys to see the Account Manager's perspective.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

I know how it is. A location that looks good and a location that sounds good are not usually the same. This video I edited and mixed (but did NOT shoot) was in a place with hardwood floors, plaster walls and lots and lots of glass. The acoustics of the space were so hard and echoing that the drum tracks in isolation sounded like the entire kit was made up of various sizes of snare drums.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Messed up the start of the video guys recording this week. The video people are the nicest ones we get to work with, but they were also doing stills photography - not their choice but the client wanted it. The audio feed from the mixer was forgotten about until the last minute - then he gave us a Sennheiser plug in, which just slotted straight into one of the aux outputs. My sound simply set one of the auxes to unit gain, on every channel we were using, and that was that - BUT the music being played for the audience before the show had the button pushed making the send pre-fade, not post fade, so the show started and although he'd pulled the walking in music fader down, it was still going to the two cameras! Frantic waving from the cameraman didn't work - he wasn't looking that way, and it took 30 seconds for a runner to yell at him. Once the show starts, he wasn't even thinking about the video. He said sorry, but I suspect the first minute or so of the video will have to be from one of the on-camera mics. It's a simple mistake to make, but just shows how easy it is to mess up somebodies video!

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Not familiar with the term. I know and love the headphones, but what type of plug is that?

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

The radio mic transmitter that that plugs into a normal wired mic - it's a square beast with an xlr socket on the end. It's handy for plugging into the mixer if they have XLR outputs.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Paul,
Thank you for posting that. The "old burned by the post/pre-fade button" trick. I have been there, saw it happen once. So painful you only see it once. Every mixer has a "suck" button on it, that one was yours.

Al Gardner,
If your still around. What you describe is the RIGHT way to do it. Fortunately I have that exact opportunity, sometimes, and from both sides. In the wide ranging world of corporate meetings that kind of communication and cooperation is most often not the case. Especially if video is a low priority afterthought. I think every guy here goes into it with the attitude that he is going to do the best job possible, as he should. But if he is not familiar with the meeting environment it might be a rude awakening. Also, some meeting planners are not professional planners. They hold some other job position in the company and are thrust into the difficult task of meeting planning. They don't even understand why they should give time to some guy that is "just going to point a camera at the stage".

Steve

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Ah, OK. Thanks. Clever idea if you have the equipment and saves having to run and tape cables.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Steve,
OUCH!!! had that happen before. But it's not supposed to happen again. But it does.

I can't stress enough, communication between you and the audio guy is KEY.

Usually I'm traveling so my first time meeting the audio guy is that day or the day before.

On the shoot day I set up my camera and sticks on the riser. Once I'm good, I spend the rest of the time with the AV guy. Usually he has other stuff to do besides me. You guys have probably seen this, one guy trying to sound check 6 or more mics in the room. This is where we become friends. I tell him to sit at the board while I go around and give him a soundcheck. Can't tell you how much they appreciate that.

After that we go over again what I need and check sound to the camera. I always ask the sound guy when we go live to maintain eye contact with me for the first minute or so. If all is good I give him a thumbs up.

I have to say and this is key, on most all of my jobs the client is paying for a record feed as well as a house feed. That means my AV guy is invested in getting it right. In other words that music in the mix would be on him. My client would know that. That said, clients don't usually get upset about something like that, provided it's not 3 minutes long.

One thing about using butt plugs, which I usually don't. When I use a butt plug in a ball room, I always put it on a light stand about 7 or 8 ft up to make line of site clear. I have been burnt by that before, having it at mixer level and out of sight. Just run some XLR up the light stand.

The picture below, you can't see me but I'm off to one side about half the distance. The mixing board is all the way to the back which you can't see either. I had a butt plug in the mixing board. Once the floor filled up all these bodies between me and the butt plug went south with intermittent hits in the audio. So I blew some sound from an awesome blues band as you can see by the crowd. Since then I always raise the butt plug with a light stand.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Al,

I have a Sennheiser EW100 plug. I would never use as a stand alone transmitter because it is designed to use the metal body of any mic you attach to it as the antenna. Your audio hits???

Also, after years of using that mic I just learned here on this forum about Sennheiser squelch settings causing hits in the feed.

I love shooting concerts. especially from the mosh pit. It is cool to turn the camera on the crowd and watch them go crazy. Unfortunately, EVERY time, some idiot is always flipping the bird and ruining the shot so it is not usable. And in a viewfinder with all the waving hands you can't see it until later or the Director is yelling in your headset to give him something he can use. Yes, I-mag at some concerts is supposed to be family friendly, or for broadcast advertising. I have never seen the idiot with the finger get his 60 seconds of fame.

Once just for fun when I knew my camera was safe, I zoomed up Alice Coopers nose while he was leaning over me from the edge of the stage. It was disgusting. I knew the TD well or I would not have done that, when they started yelling, "CAMERA 4 PULL OUT, PULL OUT!!!", I was laughing so hard I could hardly recompose a shot. Headset humor makes this job fun sometimes.

Steve

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Steve,
Tell me about this squelch problem? How do I fix it. I have had that problem even in interviews.

Al

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Here it is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-thin...mple-clip.html

Gotta love the guys on this forum.

Steve

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

I shoot concerts pretty much exclusively, but I usually only have one other operator. But when there is a budget, I'll have handheld down in the pit. Once, when I was shooting Los Lobos, I assigned my beautiful blonde niece that position. Nothing like a hot blonde in the pit to get the musicians to play to the camera.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

If people could hear what's on the headset the would either commit us or put us in jail. I live for headset humor especially really early in the AM when I haven't had enough caffine! ;-)

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

I just had to share this classic bit of headset humor.

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Man I had forgotten about that line. Classic. One of the best lines ever to come out of Hollywood! PLUS the delivery was great! Deadpan! Love it. Gotta remember it!

Re: Surviving your experience with an audio guy
 

Now that made laugh!!!

No one likes the guy that flips the bird.....the girls that flash the camera...a different story...at NASCAR concerts it happens a lot.

Steve