Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Hi everyone,
I’m recording video in settings such as a theater/church/school/concert hall etc, usually with a stage or platform at the front and upstairs balcony at the rear. To do this I will be using a Tascam DR100 external audio recorder (containing two XLR inputs) along side my camera with an attenuator cable going from the line-out of the recorder to the mic-in of the camera for the purpose of synching in post. I need to be able to move around while doing this. I have a Rode NTG-2 shotgun mic which is not suited for this purpose and thought a decent stereo mic would be a good solution so I went to a local store to check some out.

However, the audio salesman told me that no mic would be a good choice in such a situation and that my only alternative was to get the microphones closer to the subjects being recorded. I am unable to do this, though I generally don’t have a problem being allowed to take a stereo or mono feed from the mixing console located in the balcony. I could run a 100ft long or longer XLR cable from the balcony down to the lower floor and use another person as a cable puller to follow me around while I shoot video footage, but this is not practical, neither would I be allowed to do so, which leads me to my question.

Is it possible to capture a live feed from the stereo/mono XLR outputs of the mixing console into the XLR inputs of the Tascam DR100 audio recorder using a wireless system? Normally a lavaliere mic and transmitter would be located on the subject, with the transmitter sending a signal back to the receiver located and hooked up to the mixing console where the audio can easily be recorded.

I asked the audio salesman at the store if it were possible to reverse the process. In other words, the transmitter would be hooked up to the mono/stereo live feed on the mixer sending the live feed back to the receiver which I would carry with me in the same way I would carry a field mixer which would feed the signal into the DR100 recorder.

A couple of questions came with this possible scenario.
1. The receiver would have to be battery operated. Is their such a thing?

2. The salesman said the transmitter could be hooked up to the mixing console but it would be a
balanced signal (coming from the mixer), dropping down to an unbalanced signal (going into the
transmitter), back to a balanced signal (from receiver into recorder).
If all of this were to work, how much would the signal quality be affected going from balanced to
unbalance back to balanced using a wireless system?

3. There is also the possibility that their is a mic that would yield acceptable results in such a situation.
Is their?

I’m sure there is a decent solution to this problem and probably equipment now available that would do it more efficiently that I am not aware of, so some solid input would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

What is the nature of the performance you're recording? Single speaker, musical group, chorus or choir, variety acts, opera, dramatic play, what? Optimum mic'ing is dependent on the nature of the source(s) to be recorded.

You certainly can run a wireless link from a mixer back to the recorder/camera but if you are recording in stereo you're going to need 2 transmitter/receiver pairs to do it, one pair for the left channel and one for the right. And yes, there are many wireless units that have battery powered receivers - they are extremely common. As for how to hook the mixer output to the transmitters, first of all what mixer are you using? Does it have line level or mic level outputs or can you choose one or the other? Anything else running off the mixer, such as PA, or is it dedicated exclusively to your audio feed?

Going from balanced to unbalanced or vice versa shouldn't be an issue if it's done right.

As far a mic that will give decent recordings when located in the balcony at the back of an auditorium, such critters simply don't exist.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Steve
I’m not sure what type of mixer it is. Are you referring to make and model?

The mixer s not dedicated to my audio feed.

The mixer is running a PA system with also a wireless setup with the wireless receiver in the opposite part of the building. I’m unsure if everything is run wirelessly but the sound engineer said something about getting a transmitter to hang on my belt and sending the audio feed into my recorder but I would need to buy the receiver with the same frequency as the one they are using (and he doesn’t know what that is).

Of course the other question would be how to go from the 3.5mm connection on the receiver to the XLR inputs of the recorder.

I think there are both line level and mic level outputs available at the mixer. There are dual stereo XLR outputs and one mono XLR outputs for live feed which I have used before with cables. I realize that recording stereo would require twice the equipment so I would probably just record mono to both channels on the recorder.

As far as the mic located in the balcony at the back is concerned I was meaning one that I could attach to my video rig which would go wherever I go whether back in the balcony, on the lower floor, or right next to the sound source.

Note: I am not very familiar with audio equipment and like many others, I have a limited budget but want the best setup I can afford.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Alternatively, send the output from the recorder to the camera. In the industry, it's called a wireless hop. If it's only for syncing, a mono, low quality feed will work. The possibility of dropping the wireless signal (especially with TWO systems) is too high when the recorder is your only audio source.

Wire the recorder, send a scratch track to the camera with a wireless hop.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

I’ve never heard of a wireless hop before, but I assume you mean sending a line out signal from the recorder to the line in of the camera. If that is the case, I am already doing this via an attenuator cable. What I need is getting a wireless feed from the mixer to the recorder via the mixer and recorders XLR outputs and inputs. The only other way is drag cables (not practical), or put a mic on top of the camera (which I am told does not yield good results).

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Maybe I missed something, but why do you need to carry the recorder around with you? It seems that you are only recording the feed from the house mixer, right? It seems to me there's no reason to have to carry the DR-100 around.

House mixer-------recorder------wireless tx ) ) ) ) wireless rx-----Camera.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

I agree with Peter. There is no need to carry the recorder with you. In my opinion it is not necessary to transmit the audio to the camera as well. Just use a simple (built in) mic on the camera. That should be enough for syncing purposes.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Thanks for your input guys, but here are a few more thoughts I have. What am I missing here?

A common method used by most run and gun videographers is mounting an external recorder on top of the camera to record the audio while at the same time sending the same signal via an attenuator cable to be recorded by the camera. I am by no means very knowledgeable regarding audio, but this method appears to have some advantages.

I had thought of placing the recorder next to the mixer and doing as you suggested. The potential problem with this method is that if the distance of the camera from the sound source, is substantially different from that of where the mixer is recording the sound source, their may be problems with synching in post. I am told that there is roughly one frame lost for approximately every thirty feet the audio signal has to travel when recording with the camera and external recorder in different locations, resulting in “sync drift” in post editing. Having the recorder mounted next to the camera and sending the exact same copy of the signal into the camera would seem to be the best solution.

Another consideration, is that I would not be able to monitor the audio on the recorder and the camera at the same time. The camera would be recording the “in house” sound from both the subjects and PA system, while the mixer would be recording the audio from all source’s via microphones. Depending on the experience of the individual on the mixer, I could end up with two different audio sources
resulting in difficult post synching.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Thus the wireless hop suggestion. The recorder will send its signal to the camera wirelessly, so it will be exactly in sync.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Which brings me back to my first question. How to best set up a wireless feed from the mixer to the recorder so I can perform a wireless hop?

That is of course, unless there is an external mic I can place next to the camera and recorder to record the audio that would do a decent job thus taking the mixer out of the equation altogether.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

No, no. You have it mixed up.

The wireless hop goes from the recorder to the camera.

The recorder is wired to the mixer, and they stay back at the sound booth. The recorder's output goes into a wireless transmitter.

The wireless receiver is attached to the camera, and it gets the signal from the recorder (which is back at the sound booth.)

Now the camera is recording a "scratch track," a mono, low-quality-is-okay track to sync to the higher quality track from the recorder later.

Again, there is no reason to carry the recorder around with you, since the only source for the recorder is the house mixer, which lives on a desk.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Also, consider that you might have dropouts, noise hits, or other flaws in the wireless transmission.

You do NOT want those flaws on your final good recording. That's why the recorder should be connected directly to the mixer.

But it is OK to have a few wireless flaws in the camera's scratch track. So it makes perfect sense to use the wireless link between the recorder's output and the camera's input.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Not quite. Sounds travels slower than light. What matters is the distance the sound has to travel in air before it gets to the microphone. You insert 1 frame of delay for each 30 feet the microphone is away from the sound source. A microphone at the speaker's position feeding a recorder 100 feet away through a cable has essentially no delay.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Ah-ha, now I understand. I have never heard anyone so much as hint of such a setup you have mentioned on any of the forums. Probably because they are all run and gunning outside where they have no mixer or are carrying a portable field mixer with them.
In any case, it make perfect sense. All I needed was a little mores descriptive clarification.

Ok then, now you have set me straight and enlightened me, can you suggest a wireless system I might use without breaking the bank. My understanding of a normal wireless system is receiver, transmitter and a microphone. I won’t need the microphone and I see there are different sizes of transmitters and receivers available with different features and connections.

Descriptive clarification please, lol.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Sennheiser G3 (or a used G2 system.) Make sure you get a system with the battery powered receiver. They make an AC powered receiver for installation, which is not what you want.

You might also need an adapter cable from the output of the recorder to the input of the transmitter. The Sennheisers use a weird screw-on 1/8" plug, but an adapter cable can be made or bought at places like B&H or Trew Audio.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

A note of caution: He's sending a line level signal from the recorder output to the transmitter and a standard 1/8 to 1/8 jumper cable will not work properly. The G-series transmitters use a non-standard wiring for their line input cables with signal hot going to the ring on the TRS plug, signal ground to the sleeve, and the tip jumpered to the sleeve inside the connector. He'll need to make certain that any cable he obtains is purpose-built to take a stereo line level signal into a G-series transmitter's mono line-level input.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

If people have to send stereo from a mixer to a camera, then the best system to use is an IEM system, with a mains powered stereo transmitter, and then a battery receiver. They're designed to drive headphones, of course, so output level needs a bit of control to match the levels - but I do this quite often with no bother at all. The real killer is that a six hundred dollar radio link is very nearly as reliable as a ten dollar cable! Radio is unreliable, and unpredictable. The idea of hard wiring the recorder is the only secure and robust system, with the radio link being for backup.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

The IEM system is a little more than I would want to spend at this time, perhaps later as things progress. However, it does leave me with some questions regarding the Sennheiser G2 or G3 system.

Steve mentions the incompatibility of the Sennheiser system requiring a work-around in the wiring between the recorder and the transmitter. Is their another system equal in price and quality that would not require any fixes to make it work. Buying an adapter cable is one thing, but having to have cables custom built, is another?

The other is headphone monitoring. Will the Sennheiser G2 or G3 system (or one of equal price and quality) allow headphone monitoring. The camera of course has only one mic input, so how (if possible) would I connect the headphones, perhaps a splitter of some kind, or at an output on the receiver (assuming there are two)?

Regarding the G3 and G2.
The Sennheiser G2 shown here at has a rectangular module with an XLR connection on the back (not sure what that is), with what appears to be two receivers, or two transmitters, or a receiver and a transmitter. Either way, they both look the same.

The Sennheiser G3 at Sennheiser ew 112-p G3 - Lavalier Clip-On Microphone Wireless Set - Presentation - Transmitter, Receiver show only the mic and the two (I’m assuming transmitter and receiver) which look identical like the ones in the G2 system.
Can you point out these differences please.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

I have the G3 set from your second link and I do what you asking for all the time, but I have no recorder in the game, since mono is good enough for what I do (speeches).

The PA guys usually know what they do and know how to properly hook up your TX to the mixer.
The RX feed direct to my camera, so I can skip the whole syncing part.

The cube with the XLR from your first link is for connecting a normal mic - something you don't need.

My camera has a headphone connector, so I can listen to what I record.

Having a recorder on the camera is a bad habit of DSLR guys IMHO, but no proper way to record audio (better than the build in mics of the DSLRs though, so who can blame them?)

If you absolutely need a stereo recording, go from the mixer in your recorder and from the recorders output into the G3 TX with a proper cable.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

"The PA guys usually know what they do and know how to properly hook up your TX to the mixer"
-- I wouldn't count on it and don't expect them to have cables either.. especially with a wireless transmitter.
I believe the Sennheiser G2/3 'line level' cable should be available from the usual suspect pro-audio dealers. Steve?
In any case, making one would be easy for anyone with audio cable/soldering skills, a generic 3.5mm TRS plug could even be used.. though it wouldn't 'lock' to the transmitter.

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Not at all. Sennheiser actually make the CL2, a line level input cable for the G2 series.

No, the receiver only has one output. Why not just use the headphone plug on your camera?

The first link is a kit. The XLR plug-on is designed for use with handheld or shotgun mics. It plugs directly into the bottom of the mic (look at the mics news anchors use, they usually have something similar.) You can't use both the XLR plug-on and the bodyback (the one with the antenna) at the same time. The other bodyback is a receiver.

The G3 has different frequencies (since the FCC ruling back in '09) and an orange backlight (instead of green.)

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

One more vote for leaving the recorder hardwired to the house mixer.

Then also transmit from the mixer to your camera so you'll have an easy sync reference. If you do this, you won't have to deal with the audio delay, but...and this is a very important but... you can't guarantee that the recorder and camera won't drift and the longer you record without stopping, the farther away the audio may drift. (or not.)

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Ok, sorry guys, but I still have more questions.

Is the G3 series only suited for mono, or can stereo also be run through this system?

I see different numbers for the G3 series such as 135 G3, 172 G3, 114 G3 etc what do these numbers mean?

With the exception of HDMI, my camera only has a “mic in”. If I wish to use headphones, is my only option to use a splitter, and if so will the signal be weaker therefore requiring a signal booster?

In response to Ty Ford. I have just been advised to send a wireless signal from the recorder to the camera. Am I understanding you correctly in saying that you advise me to do it from the mixer instead, and if so, what is the advantage in doing so? In each case, would their not be a decent sync track left on the camera to sync to in post?

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Yes and no ... a single G-series transmitter and receiver kit will only handle a mono signal. With TWO kits and the appropriate splitter 'Y' cables you can run both sides of a stereo signal, one channel per transmitter/receiver pair.

The various kit numbers refer to what is included in the kit - omni or cardioid mic, battery or mains powered receiver, bodypack transmitter or handheld mic, etc, etc

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Maybe. BTW, you will have someone on a good set of headphones (Sony MDR7506 or Audio Technica ATH-M50) to make sure what you want to record is actually getting to the recorder, right? The answer to the question, "When do you listen to production audio?" is "Always, always, always."

If the levels from the mixer change, so may your record levels. That would be bad. Short of writing a chapter on prefade and postfade levels, I hope a word to the wise is sufficient.

You are obviously in over your head here. That's not a denigration, just an observation based on your questions. You would do well to hire a professional sound person if the project is of any importance. If not, have fun and learn something.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Thanks so much for all of your answers guys. I am indeed in over my head, but at this stage, I am not being paid to do it. Learn audio I will, and thanks to forums like this it will make it much easier to do so while having fun doing it. However, I am finding out that as I begin to develop a passion for video and audio, that people will take notice and present opportunities to you.

Apart from going to school events and concerts to videotape my grandchildren etc, I had also asked the pastor of a local church for permission, (whenever I wish), if I could set up my video gear in the balcony of the church during the Sunday service so that I could gain more experience with my equipment, while at the same time trying to remain inconspicuous, and he said that would be ok. It is a fairly large building with concert hall type lighting and a good sound system with a seemingly experienced sound engineer who seems to know what he is doing. Both the lighting and the audio present challenges, which is good for me.

Just a few weeks after beginning this I was asked by one of the video guys in the church if I wanted to take a shot at shooting a baptism. I declined saying that I did not have all of my equipment together yet and as a result was not confident in doing so. A week later they had a children’s musical program with no one to shoot video, (they were out of town for the weekend). Again I was asked and again I declined, but one day soon I will say yes. We’ve all got to learn somehow.
Just thought I’d share this with you all.

Ty,
I’ve just purchased a set of Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones and they sound great. I selected them based on reviews and the fact that the impedance was more suited for the equipment I am using.

Steve,
What do you mean when you say, Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams! Lol?

Regards Everyone

Peter

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

Peter,

Every job I take, I hope to learn something new that I can use on the next job. Enjoy the ride!

Regards,

Ty Ford

Re: Wireless from the Mixer to the Recorder
 

It's a paraphrase from "1984." The news reader excitedly announces the wonderful news that despite the hardships of the ongoing war this year the weekly chocolate ration has been raised to 15 grams. Of course because history is constantly re-written to serve the propaganda needs of the State, no one remembers that LAST year the weekly 'chocorat' was 30 grams!