AT897 and Z1U audio levels?
 

Hello all,

Just got my Audio Technica AT897 mic, and I have a couple of questions.

1. What do you guys normally set your audio levels too for indoor, one person speaking. It seems I have to really crank up the level to maybe 7 or 8 to get a suitable recording volume without clipping. Automatic levels is the same way, and can be confirmed through the VU meters.

2. Is there a way to record this mic's input to both channels (L&R) at the same time? I know the mic is mono only, but it would be nice to have both channels recording and balanced at the same time.

Disregard question #2 - found it in the manual.

Well, I've found the dB boost of +6 and +12. Using +6 seems to get good results while keeping the recording level at 5. It seems odd though that one would have to use so much audio gain? Is it just the camera, or is there something wrong with the mic?

I have used an AT897 on a PD150 a JVC5000 and a Sony DSR570. It is nowhere near as hot as other mics I've used such as Senn ME66,67 or 416.
Using it as my standard mic on my 5000 I do have to crank the levels up BUT be aware that as you crank it up you also bring up the floor noise so find a happy place for your levels and stay there. For the money though the AT897 is a really good mic.

Don

Perhaps you're right, but it still seems wrong that I have to really crank up recording levels and/or audio gain in order to get a decent signal. I mean, my built-in mic gets a stronger audio signal on auto-settings for goodness sake! Auto levels for the AT897 are damn near useless unless your subject is shouting. I'm going to try a different XLR cable today, and perhaps a different mic to see if things change. If not, I'll return the camera for another one.

This may sound like a dumb question, but do you have a battery in the 897?
Do you have Phantom Power enabled?

I certainly don't have any problems using the AT897 in either the FX1 or Z1...
-certainly not having to crank up the gain as was mentioned.

Robin

I have a PD170 and recently I used the camera mic which comes with the PD170 and put it on the Z1. I noticed that I had to boost it a bit to +3 db to get better levels. I am not sure yet but the audio in the Z1 at 0 db seems a bit lower than other cameras. Maybe not.

I have phantom power on. I tried it with the battery, and the results were similar if not worse.

Ok, found out the problem. The mic was at fault. It seems the mv output of the AT897 is only 10mv. I tried several 897's at B&H today, along with the ME66's. The ME66 is definitely a hotter mic, pushing 50mv. However, I decided on the short barreled Audio Technica AT4073a instead. Expensive at almost $600, but worth it. This mic is even hotter than the ME, pushing 70.8mv, and it's really short to boot! This camera is cooking now. On manual, I have the gain set to 0db, and have to turn the levels down to about 3.5 or 4 to avoid clipping during normal conversation levels.

I will never recommend the AT897 for this camcorder. It's a good boom mic, but not good with the Z1 or on-camera use.

James

P.S. If you guys ever go to B&H, I suggest checking out the pro-audio sound room. You can test these mics there for yourself.

Uhh...Myself and many, many others use the 897 with the Z1, no problems whatsoever.

I don't know what to say then. We tried several 897's with my Z1 and the demo Z1 at B&H. Both camera's needed to have levels and gain increased far beyond what I felt was necessary, along with introducing more audio noise.

Perhaps the preamps in my camera aren't as strong as yours, or perhaps we just have different ideas of what audio should sound like. If you don't mind, would you tell me what your audio settings are for your setup?

Can't imagine mine is any different than yours, Z1, 897 (among roughly 200 other mics in my collection) and Mogami cable. Phantom on, gain set to 6, it's reading approx -6db.
Yes, the ME66 is a hotter mic, and sounds poor in comparison.
The 4073 is a hotter and better mic than either of the other two, but the 897 is one of the most populuar Z1 accessories available.

With that, I'm moving this thread to the "Now Hear This" forum.

When you say gain is 6, are you referring to the +6dB gain boost in the audio menu, or do you mean you have your individual channel levels set to 6?

Like I said earlier, I was able to get a decent signal with my gain set to +6dB, and Channel 1 level set to at least 7 with the 897, but playback analysis showed more audio hiss then what I thought was correct with this setup.

The 4073a on the other hand is exceptionally clean. I now have my gain set back to 0dB, and have my channel levels down to 3 or 4 to aviod clipping.

Regards,

James

No gain boost whatsoever. Electronics set to 0dB.

Stranger and stranger. Would you have an opinion as to why my Z1 performed so poorly with 3 AT897's? At first I was thinking that this was a problem with my camera, but after trying the ME66 and 4073a, I'm less likely to think it's an issue with the Z1 - otherwise I would probably be having similar problems with other mics.

As always, your thoughts are greatly appeciated.

James

Well, I went and exchanged my Z1 for another one this morning just to satisfy my curiosity. Sure enough, two AT897's displayed the same poor result on the replacement Z1. Strange. Oh well, I will stick with the AT4073a.

The 4073 is a totally different class of mic than the 897, so I'm not sure why you keep making comparisons. Your disdain for the 897 is noted, several times over. By the same token, there are many, many people here happy with them. For it's price class, it's a superior mic. Maybe gain is all you're looking for, quality of sound, consistency of sound, rejection, self-noise, are all issues that most of the rest of us look at. As Robin pointed out, as I've pointed out, and as many threads and posts here bear out, the 897 is a mic that people are quite happy with. Perhaps there is a problem with the way you monitor, or a level at which you are expecting a mic in a sub 500.00 class to perform.
I just spoke to a good friend in the Audio dept at B&H, he tells me they're not having any issues with the mic and the Z1 that he's aware of either.

Why do you keep insisting that I have disdain for the AT897? I have said that it's a good mic, just not for me and the Z1. As you've also said many times over that many people like this mic and recommend it, is there something wrong with me disagreeing?

For me, the quality of audio is useless if you can't hear it, or you have to boost it so much in post process that the audio quality degrades. The built-in mic albeit useless had more output than the AT897 did. This is not what I expect from any microphone whether it be $250 or $550. I'm not comparing the AT4073a either... 50mv vs. 10mv output plus a huge difference in price - of course it's in a different league.

The bottom line - I wanted to find out if the mic was at fault or if it's the camera. I've tried a total of 3 AT897's at B&H, along with two different Z1's (and now inlucing my replacement). All of the AT897's provided a very weak output. That's not to say the audio quality is good, it's just that the signal is very low without having to boost it significantly.

I just find it odd that 3 AT897's and two brand new Z1's along with a myriad of audio and cable combinations would all lead to the same result. Wouldn't you? Anyway, I'll end my discussion here, as it seems I don't get any postive feedback from anyone anyway.

Have a nice day,

James

James, I don't believe that there are 3 defective 897s, nor do I believe that there are 2 defective Z1's. What I believe is that you have a method of monitoring that might be different from what satisfied users of the microphone are enjoying.
Suggesting that you hear something that others don't isn't a problem, but suggesting that others aren't in pursuit of excellence is.

So, to sum up:
The 4073 is indeed a better mic, and should be expected as such.
You've not been satisfied with the 897, and that's certainly within the realm of understanding.
Many others are very happy with the 897, and that's certainly within the realm of understanding. BTW, the national sales manager at AT recently informed me he's using an 897 with the Z1, and I'd say he's a pretty good judge of his own microphones.

Shedding light on how you're monitoring might help. For instance, maybe your headphones are inefficient, so require a significant amount of boost at either the headphone amp or in the gain stage of the cam?
Providing input on what the meters are displaying might help. But continuing to say "I don't like it" and not providing more info doesn't help much except to keep beating a dead horse.

I thought I gave enough details to help in my first post, but I'll write it again to clarify -

I'm using Sony MDR-7506 headphones
AT897 set to manual, channel 1 at level 5, 0dB gain, noise - wind - and audio limiters all set to off: normal conversation level in a quiet room reads around -38 to -28 dB. This is me standing approx. 3~4 feet away from the subject. Go 2 feet back, and I've lost audio almost completely. Bumping up channel 1 levels to 9 or 10 will drop me into the -20 to -15 range on the VU. Same thing if I up the gain to +6dB and up Channel 1 to 6 or 7.

Keep in mind, the subject is speaking in a normal tone and level of voice. Not whispering, nor shouting.

Now, if I go to automatic mode, the VU is only hitting -40 to -38dB. If the subject "yells" then I can get to -20 to -15 on the VU. Switching to internal mic, normal sensitivity, wind reduction on actually yields a louder signal although poor quality.

I hope that was enough info. As for me, I'm happy with what I have now and I really am done with this topic. Thanks for replying anyway.

Best regards,

James

I have found this AT897 discussion very helpful, where I work we have 12 Z1's and 8 of them run the AT897 and the other 4 run the ME66 and by far the ME66 are reading a higher level through the deck. It seems the 897 cranked to 10 on the camera does not record a level as high as the ME66 when its set to 5 on the camera. What we have found out is that the AT897 recorded a little low to tape sounds great when during the final pass we add a little trim ,it sound allot better than adding trim while going to tape, very little hiss, literally no hiss.

The ME66 is quite a bit hotter, it's just a poorer sound, IMO. Adding the gain in post isn't a problem for me, because you're not boosting noise from a pre-amp, which is apparently what you've noticed. This is but one more small reason I really like the 897 in the budget category.