Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Hi everyone.

I am really getting nuts getting into the nuts and bolts of sync sound (for me anyway) and wanted to discuss timecode.

My basic knowledge of this is that a camera and audio recording device can be synced using timecode, thereby making sync in editing as easy as matching numbers. (Correct so far?)

Where I am getting thrown are the different "flavors" of timecode syncing. For example, my desired Sound Devices 633 has no less than nine timecode modes:

Record Run, Free Run, Free Run Auto Mute, 24hr run, 24hr run Auto Mute, External timecode, External timecode Auto Record, External timecode continuous, and External Timecode Auto record continuous!!!!!

Holy crap!

Rather than go into all these and drive you all nuts, Let's say I am a one person crew (which I am) and I'm thinking the easiest thing would be to somehow have the recorder start as soon as I hit record on the camera, as well as stop. Is this even possible? This would be really cool. Is that just a simple timecode cable (BNC?) from camera to mixer/recorder? Obviously more is involved when you are doing a multi cam shoot, but that's another time.

Or do you have a better way?

Is the first thing you do is "Jam sync" the two devices? From what I understand the camera is the external slave that controls the recorder???? And what the hell are "user bits" and do I need to even concern myself with this?

Jonathan

I realize the easiest and possibly the lowest tech approach would be to slate each and every time you start and stop the camera and recorder.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

To run the audio recorder when the TC starts to run, set your camera TC to Record Run, and the recorder to External TC Auto Record. The units would have to be connected by a cable or wireless TC system. When the camera rolls, the TC will start. The audio recorder will see the TC rolling and also roll, with the same TC as the camera.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Make sure both devices are also set at the same frame rate.
BTW, TC alone does not guarantee a frame accurate or drift-free environment. Both or all other cameras, audio recorders and such would need to be gen-locked, typically with a master Tri-level sync generator.
For normal time code operation, one can usually ignore the user bits.
SMPTE TC and synchronization methods can get rather confusing. There's plenty of books available.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Ed and Rick.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate that.

Ed- It sounds like I should be focusing on "Record Run" for my purposes. I'll concentrate my study to that for now.

Rick- I'm assuming that there must be a setting on the recorder that I can set to say, 30p, the same as a camera.

So here's another question, the camera I'm usually renting for work is a Canon XF305 and I may upgrade my video camera to an XF205. Both camera have four additional inputs/outputs: Genlock/sync out, Timecode, Monitor (for external video monitor), and 3G/HDI-SDI.

If I am doing a single camera set up, would the only cable I'd need to connect to mixer/recorder be the Timecode from camera to mixer/recorder? I know that with multi camera set ups you get into the whole Genlock 3G/HD-SDI thing.

Good to know I don't have to worry for now about "user bits". I am also aware that even with todays modern "crystals???" that sync can sometimes drift a frame or two after about 20 minutes. But not as bad as the days of film and tape.

I've also just learned that there is no capability to accurately timecode sync a DSLR, and that manual slating is best for that. Or get one of those timecode generator things, which I am not going to get into.

I'll try to look for some books on timecode. There wasn't much on University of YouTube, or other searches.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

LTC can be recorded on one of the audio tracks. Some NLEs can convert it to a TC stamp and place it accordingly on the timeline. A smart slate will also display it. Depends on the camera what frame rates are available. Usually 24 (23.96), and 29.97 DF and NDF. I only know basic info about camera settings.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

I think that nowadays the timecode running at "time of day" is the standard preferred.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

I concur with John, most prefer TOD. It's more of a constant. I think I've only used 'record run' once with a wireless TC link to trigger the audio recorder. The (inexperienced) camera dept. insisted on it and there were problems, especially in post.. naturally this was audio's fault. (me)

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Ok. Now confused. Is time of day a selectable timecode mode? Or is it something that is automatically written at the same time that the timecode is generated?

Looking at the Sound Devices manual, I don't see anything about Time of Day, unless it is called something else.

Thanks fellows.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Timecode can be used in SO MANY ways......

If you are doing a recording where time is NOT critical then running it from 00:00:00 is the way to go as this gives a continious numbering.
If you are going to use several discs / tapes why not identify each disc by disc 1 = 01:00:00:00 and disc 2 = 02:00:00:00, disc 3 = 03:00:00:00 This works VERY well for camera shoots of a simple nature.

Time of day works well for split system shoots where recorders (video or audio) may be seperated. TOD also works well for single camera shoots where a producer / script assist can look at a watch and identify a take by just using time of day.

For more accuricy you may wish to connect the 2 units together either by cable of RF sends, for say a 3 camera 1 audio shoot using 'user bits' and 'TOD' code. ie, Cam 1 = 01: +TOD code, Cam 2 = 02:+ TODcode, Cam 3 = 03:+TODcode.etc etc etc.

Just imagine doing a 7 day shoot with (4 cameras + 4 Audio) of the local police / fire dept and "just" using TOD code... ALL the recordings would be the same regardless of which / day / date.
7days x 4 cameras = 28+ discs ALL with similar code and 28+ discs of audio with the same code......56 discs of confusion.

TOD would be useless in a DOCO spanning of a year of interviews / footage of perhaps a large building project or company staff interviews etc. in that case using the UserBits to include the date and TOD would be more usefull.

Remember timecode is just a way of marking each frame in an indentifible and searchable way.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

You set up time of day by setting Free Run as the mode on all devices, jamming from a Preset timecode that you set on your master device. If it's currently 1:53pm, set the preset to 13:53:00.00 and start it rolling. Then jam all devices. Voila, time of day timecode. (hours:minutes:seconds.frames, depending if your particular device's preset function offers frames)

With some practice and an accurate clock, you can get your timecode to match actual TOD within an half-second or so.

This is also very handy when other syncing methods have failed for some reason; you always have unique (for a day) TC that matches within a half-second. Knowing what video and audio clips go together and having rough sync is more than half the sync battle; from there you can fine-sync by hand if all else has failed.

DO use all the sync tools, but TOD code can give you a fairly robust fallback when things go sideways. If for some reason you can't jam sync, carefully use the preset functions on all devices...

P.S. as mentioned above, also assure that all devices are set to NDF... or all to DF. DF will be ever so slightly more accurate to actual TOD, if that matters.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Someday, we will move from timecode to PTP - Precision Time Protocol. It's based on IEEE 1588-2008, was originally developed for computer networking, and has been adapted for various industries. As TV studios & stations move toward IP infrastructure setups, PTP can be used to sync audio and video within sub-microsecond accuracy. This is important as delivery times of independent streams have unknown and independent delays.

This can be especially important for next generation broadcasts that could include multiple views and multiple audio options with high-use streams (e.g. English in the US) being broadcast and low-use streams (e.g. Estonian in the US) coming over the network. It can also be adapted for high frame rate video, such as 120 fps and beyond.

PTP on Wikipedia:
Precision Time Protocol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a nice PowerPoint presentation called "Genlock in the cloud"
http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/publi...SMPTE-0513.pdf

Note that PTP isn't just for replacing timecode. It would replace the whole black burst / genlock / timecode infrastructure.

SMPTE's 33TS Synchronization and Time Labeling Standardization Committee is drafting the ST 2059 standard suite:
* ST 2059-0 Overview of Standard
* ST-2059-1 Generation of Signals
* ST-2059-2 SMPTE PTP Profile

This info doesn't affect the practical aspects being discussed in this thread above. This is about what we will be working with in the future.

Won't it be cool when we can sync audio and video in a multi-camera shoot by simply connecting the cameras and recorders via local Wi-Fi?

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

As it should be.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

So this just FINALLY occurred to me:

If you set timecode to FreeRun on recorder/mixer, the clock continues regardless of anything being recorded or not.

So if the recorder and the camera are initially synced (jam synced?) then you could start and stop both the recorder and the camera anytime and ads many times and still be able to line up sync to that 24hr running clock by just lining up the time! (As long as you don't go over 24hours) So in this case you wouldn't have to slate anything.

Have I got this right? Seems to simple to be true. Probably really basic but a mountain of info to me.
Jonathan

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

"If you set timecode to FreeRun on recorder/mixer, the clock continues regardless of anything being recorded or not"
Yes.
Many pros use small battery powered 'lock boxes' which are quite accurate, the cameras/recorders TC are jam-sync'd to them. They run $300-500+ each and each recorder needs one.. But drift could still happen over long run times.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Hi Rick,

Is drift a giant factor even with today's modern digital equipment? For a basic 20 minute interview, single camera to mixer/recorder would I need to be looking to add those lock box things?

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Some people are lucky enough to have a camera and a recorder that show no significant drift for 20-30 minutes at a time. Or so they claim. I have never seen non-genlock gear able to do that. More typical, IME, and according to the reports of people in various online forums like this (and several others), We're lucky to have drift of maybe a frame or three after 10 minutes.

OTOH, Who uses shots that are 20 minutes (or even 10 minutes, or 5 minutes) without any kind of edit point? A video production with a 10-minute shot would be deadly dull to almost any audience. We typically throw in "cutaway" shots just to keep the viewer awake. And any point where you make a video edit is an opportunity to "pull-up" the video to match the audio track. This is so trivial, it takes much longer to describe it than it takes to just do it. So modern gear and modern edit techniques makes timecode and genlock much less important than it used to be, at least IMHO.

And as Mr. Fairhurst mentions, as video and audio recording become more computer-based, PTP will likely replace all those previous-generation genlock and timecode solutions.

I have shot and edited all sorts of video productions, including multi-camera musical events. And lack of timecode or even genlock has never been even a significant issue IME.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

"Is drift a giant factor even with today's modern digital equipment?"
If your work-flow involves long takes, get some kind of gen-lock system. But otherwise I concur w/ Richard.
SD's Ambient clocks are pretty accurate but that doesn't mean the other gear on a shoot is.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Hey Richard and Rick. Great thanks! Finally wrapping my head around this somewhat.

I know that if I interview someone, I could have the camera running continuously for 20 minutes or more, especially if there is a really talkative subject. Or if there is some sort of (boring) presentation that is being captured.

Obviously MUCH of that gets edited away in post.

But maybe you could clear this up for me: Let's say there is a take that's 20 or > and you have your video in an editor, say FCP, and then you import audio, sync that up at very beginning.

So I am editing about 18 minutes in and notice that something is slightly off. Is this something you just deal with by a cut/edit and then manually slipping audio in sync one way or the other a few frames? I know the 'ol b-roll trick.

Any rule of thumb on this?

Jonathan

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Oh, cr@p. I think Richard answered this in #16!

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

But of course there are people who want to do it because it's a challenge. My favorite long take is actually short in comparison -- the opening to Touch of Evil, where Orson Wells opens with a nearly 3.5 minute tracking shot that's just brilliant. And just the opposite of boring!

Ten years before that, Hitchcock made far longer takes in Rope. He supposedly wanted to make the entire film just one single long take, but was saddled with 35mm film cameras that were limited to 1000' magazines (roughly 10 minutes at 24fps). So the final film is 11 long takes, each around 10 minutes in length. Sadly, I've not seen Rope. But it's now on my list.

But in general, Mr. Crowley is spot on. For those of us who are not quite as talented as Orson Wells or Alfred Hitchcock (that would absolutely be me), really long takes should perhaps be avoided. And not just because of the sync sound issues!

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Rick mentioned this early in the thread but I get the feeling it escaped notice. When used with a modern file-based audio recorder, timecode does not provide any speed reference, hence is useless for preventing drift. Timecode provides a single position reference so you can align the first sample in the audio file with the frame in which it was recorded in the video file. It really does nothing more than a clapper slate does, albeit in a much more convenient way. To prevent drift you need to use a genlock system so the sample clocks in the camera and the audio recorder share a common timebase.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

I was just overtaken with the desire to watch "Russian Ark". I guess I will have to buy a BD. It is scheduled to be shown on Sept 1. on TCM @ 3am(!), but since I don't have satellite or cable (or even Netflix), I guess I will just have to buy a BD.

"Russian Ark" (2002) is a 95-minute feature film made in ONE shot, ONE take. It features 2000 extras in period costume, 33 rooms of the epic Hermitage museum in St. Petersburg, and 3 live orchestras, With ONE camera operator using a Steadicam!

I just discovered: "In One Breath - The Making of Russian Ark" on YouTube (in 5 parts!)
They had a "camera entourage" of eight people including director, assistants, Steadicam operator, focus-puller (wireless), and a guy with an enormous back-pack, presumably hard drive recorders and batteries.
In the first segment (which is the only one I have watched, so far) they said they had 36 hours for setup, shooting, and strike (including restoration to the museum). "Postponement was never an option."

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

...but did they do sync sound?

For Touch of Evil, they didn't. Rope likely did. Not sure about Russian Ark.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

It appears that they did NOT do sync sound for Russian Ark. At least in very many places you hear the director and assistant directors shouting out blocking instructions to the cast/extras.

Apparently they made a custom Steadicam for this production, but even at that, the Steadicam operator nearly didn't make it all the way through without collapsing. He said he feared he was in danger of permanently injuring himself and never working again. In several places you see the enormous battery and recorder back-pack being wheeled around on a cart by two guys. But no relief for the Steadicam operator.

What a very unique and remarkable production! Even if they didn't do sync sound.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Well, might was well get the others. Timecode (shot 15 times, one continuous take each time, with the actors wearing different clothes for each take to prevent edits after the fact), PVC-1 (I can't find out anything about this one), and La Casa Muda (may or may not be one single take, might be edited to simulate one take) are also supposed to be full-length single-take feature films. This from Wikipedia; I haven't seen any of these films. Yet. That makes four -- are there any others?

All of the above are from the digital era, of course. I don't remember exactly, but I think there was a film camera made that could handle 1200' reels of 16mm film (S16?), which was good for a bit over 30 minutes. But that's about the max we ever got from film, yes?

I'll have to locate a copy of Russian Ark; should make for an amazing evening.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

There are a few copies on eBay, both DVD and Blueray versions.

Re: Thinking about timecode lately. Am obsessed....
 

Despite audio syncing method with today's workflow, I still prefer SMPTE TC. Yes, it costs a lot more. $500+ for SMPTE TC option, but in the long run that investment pays off in efficiency and accuracy. I actually use it more than ever before in situation where it's too tedious to run 100-ft XLR from the master mixer on the balcony to the bottom or vice versa. The SD 744T has been a great workhorse. I use mostly the 24 hr continuous TC and it acts as a master source. No more low-quality wireless feed but full 24-bit glory w/ out the cable run hassles. The key is to resync every time the cam powers down to ensure absolutely minimum drift. To me, 1 frame off is perfectly acceptable. But 5 or more is not. For a whole day of shoot and 2 battery changes, it drifted only 1-2 frames before resync. Not too bad. In the real world example, trying to sync with audio from 6 cams will take a very long time in most NLE. It has to process all the audio pattern. I gave up for the 3 hour concert. Or one can use a crude method of finding flash photography and mark it in. This works for continuous take but when the 6 cams are rolling w/ out any visual reference, TC is indispensable. For me, I use TC as the primary method. If TC drifts by a few frames due to battery change and other matters, common flash sync is my 2nd. Then audio sync as the 3rd method. Audio sync is very hard if you have a rear camera 200-500 feet back and the front cam is right next to the speaker. There's a delay in the audio when the cam is too far back.

In post prod., lining up TC source is incredibly fast (as long as it's done correctly in the field) from various sources vs having to go in and manually find a reference point and mark as in point. I hate having to guess the lip-sync and then 15 min later in the continuous event it's drift by half a second. in such situation, TC works best.