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-   -   External audio recorder (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/534960-external-audio-recorder.html)

Kathy Smith November 15th, 2017 11:36 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin O'Connor (Post 1938610)
Sorry to high jack your topic. My guess to your question, and I have not read all the response yet, is; It's good to have the exact copy of the audio track your recorder has collected on your camera so you can sync the two in post.

Okay now I'll read everyone response.

Thanks, KPO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum (Post 1938613)
Not having used this mixer, and not having time to research, I’ll speculate. Take it for what it’s worth.

If the BASIC mode really does turn the knobs into pre-preamp gain controls (trims, sensitivity) then crank them up so your peak volumes hit -18db, or, -12db, depending on how adventurous/conservative you are.

Test and listen... for corporate talking heads (do I remember that’s a lot of what you do?) I’d peak at -12db.

Running faders at about 12 o’clock is for faders, not preamp gain! You’re saying you can make the knobs into gain controls? Run them right up past 12, way past as needed.

PS. That’s a very interesting function SD has put in. I like it!
From the manual
"In Basic mode, the MixPre-3 functions as a two-track 48 kHz recorder. The two record tracks are fed by the LR mix which is driven directly by the channel knob gains"
OK so if I run past 12 the audio is not very clean any more (but maybe I'm getting confused by the room tone)

John Murphy November 15th, 2017 11:45 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
As long as you have both pieces of equipment, sync the two of them. Its easier than it sounds. One of the biggest reason for this is, at least for me, is redundancy. It’s a very bad feeling to get back to post and find no audio recorded on your sd card.

Kathy Smith November 15th, 2017 11:48 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Murphy (Post 1938616)
As long as you have both pieces of equipment, sync the two of them. Its easier than it sounds. One of the biggest reason for this is, at least for me, is redundancy. It’s a very bad feeling to get back to post and find no audio recorded on your sd card.
But what would be the reason it didn't record on SD? You didn't press the record button? If so, does it still send signal to camera even if you didn't hit record?

Seth Bloombaum November 15th, 2017 11:53 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938615)
From the manual
"In Basic mode, the MixPre-3 functions as a two-track 48 kHz recorder. The two record tracks are fed by the LR mix which is driven directly by the channel knob gains"
OK so if I run past 12 the audio is not very clean any more (but maybe I'm getting confused by the room tone)
I’d really need to have hands-on time with the thing to give good guidance.

Sound Devices doesn’t seem to have published a block diagram for this, probably because of all the choices between basic, advanced and custom modes.

Gain is a genaric term that can be applied at any stage of amplification. Just do stay aware of the different functions between preamp gain/trim/sensitivity and fader gain.

If you take your quieter and louder clips into your NLE, you can boost the quieter to the same level as the louder clip. Then you can compare room tone and other sources of noise.

Kathy Smith November 15th, 2017 12:24 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum (Post 1938618)
I’d really need to have hands-on time with the thing to give good guidance.

Sound Devices doesn’t seem to have published a block diagram for this, probably because of all the choices between basic, advanced and custom modes.

Gain is a genaric term that can be applied at any stage of amplification. Just do stay aware of the different functions between preamp gain/trim/sensitivity and fader gain.

If you take your quieter and louder clips into your NLE, you can boost the quieter to the same level as the louder clip. Then you can compare room tone and other sources of noise.
I just did this test. I'm not in a sound proof room. What does this tell me?

Bernie Beaudry November 15th, 2017 02:04 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938608)
OK, so I misunderstood, from your explanation I understand that the audio you send to the camera is simply to have a better audio for syncing in post, right?
Exactly! But if you have a circumstance that you have a quick turn around and you don't have time to go through the sync process your camera tracks should still sound better with the Mix Pre feeding the camera because of the superior preamps.

Bernie Beaudry November 15th, 2017 02:14 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938608)
OK, so I misunderstood, from your explanation I understand that the audio you send to the camera is simply to have a better audio for syncing in post, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938621)
I just did this test. I'm not in a sound proof room. What does this tell me?
From the sound of it I only hear ambient room noise. If the pre amps were getting noisy you would hear a consistent hiss in the background. It would help to know how you set up your test and what components were used.

Kathy Smith November 15th, 2017 02:17 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938625)
You haven't given any information to go on. How is your test set up and what components are involved?
I did what Seth suggested
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum (Post 1938622)
If you take your quieter and louder clips into your NLE, you can boost the quieter to the same level as the louder clip. Then you can compare room tone and other sources of noise.

Kathy Smith November 15th, 2017 02:20 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938624)
Exactly! But if you have a circumstance that you have a quick turn around and you don't have time to go through the sync process your camera tracks should still sound better with the Mix Pre feeding the camera because of the superior preamps.
So what happens with the preamp on the camera, does it get turned off? That's the part I don't understand. How is it sending the audio from the external recorder better than if I hooked up the same mic directly the camera??? Does the camera know not to use its preamp? I understand the difference between the audio recorded to the camera vs recorded to the external recorder but I don't understand how different it is when you are sending it from the recorder to the camera unless what I said it's true that the camera's preamp somehow is not involved any more.

Bernie Beaudry November 15th, 2017 03:13 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938627)
So what happens with the preamp on the camera, does it get turned off? That's the part I don't understand. How is it sending the audio from the external recorder better than if I hooked up the same mic directly the camera??? Does the camera know not to use its preamp? I understand the difference between the audio recorded to the camera vs recorded to the external recorder but I don't understand how different it is when you are sending it from the recorder to the camera unless what I said it's true that the camera's preamp somehow is not involved any more.
Your camera has a mic or line input. When I feed a camera from a mixer/recorder I always use line in if I can. Theoretically this does bypass the mic preamps in the camera. I say theoretically because some so called line inputs are simply padded down mic inputs. Even if that's the case going in line is better because you're by passing all of the mic controls that are in the menu and aren't needed because you have the Mix Pre getting the mic signal.
This is all moot if you simply want to sync using the camera mic as a reference, but if you want a high quality recording on both your camera and Mix Pre then you should experiment with setting the levels so you're satisfied with both recordings.

Bernie Beaudry November 15th, 2017 04:13 PM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938629)
Your camera has a mic or line input. When I feed a camera from a mixer/recorder I always use line in if I can. Theoretically this does bypass the mic preamps in the camera. I say theoretically because some so called line inputs are simply padded down mic inputs. Even if that's the case going in line is better because you're by passing all of the mic controls that are in the menu and aren't needed because you have the Mix Pre getting the mic signal.
This is all moot if you simply want to sync using the camera mic as a reference, but if you want a high quality recording on both your camera and Mix Pre then you should experiment with setting the levels so you're satisfied with both recordings.
In Basic mode you can only record two tracks which are also bused to the LR output. That's great if you only have two sources. If you want isos of three sources plus a LR mix then you have to use advanced mode. Advanced gives you more control over the gain staging and limiter settings as well. Nice little unit! Good luck with it!

Kathy Smith November 16th, 2017 06:01 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938625)
From the sound of it I only hear ambient room noise. If the pre amps were getting noisy you would hear a consistent hiss in the background. It would help to know how you set up your test and what components were used.
Hi Bernie,
I just plugged in a mic into one of the XLR inputs and recorded ambience. The gain on the first recording was set to about 3 o'clock, and the second recording had gain level set to 12 o'clock. That's all.

Kathy Smith November 16th, 2017 06:06 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938629)
Your camera has a mic or line input. When I feed a camera from a mixer/recorder I always use line in if I can. Theoretically this does bypass the mic preamps in the camera. I say theoretically because some so called line inputs are simply padded down mic inputs. Even if that's the case going in line is better because you're by passing all of the mic controls that are in the menu and aren't needed because you have the Mix Pre getting the mic signal.
This is all moot if you simply want to sync using the camera mic as a reference, but if you want a high quality recording on both your camera and Mix Pre then you should experiment with setting the levels so you're satisfied with both recordings.
I see, I will have to test that. Thanks. How do you monitor the sound? Do you listen to the recording on the external recorder or the one on the camera?

Kathy Smith November 16th, 2017 06:10 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry (Post 1938632)
In Basic mode you can only record two tracks which are also bused to the LR output. That's great if you only have two sources. If you want isos of three sources plus a LR mix then you have to use advanced mode. Advanced gives you more control over the gain staging and limiter settings as well. Nice little unit! Good luck with it!
I don't understand this. I have 3 XLR inputs on the mixpre, so if I'm in BASIC mode, do I not get 3 separate tracks if I have 3 inputs? Maybe I'm confusing track and channel?

Roger Gunkel November 16th, 2017 09:32 AM
Re: External audio recorder
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathy Smith (Post 1938651)
I don't understand this. I have 3 XLR inputs on the mixpre, so if I'm in BASIC mode, do I not get 3 separate tracks if I have 3 inputs? Maybe I'm confusing track and channel?
Hi Kathy,

I don't have the premix, but the number of inputs is irrelevant to the premise. I have an 8 input mixer which will also record to two output tacks. On a mixer of any sort, you will have input channels which will either just have a simple gain or volume control on each input channel or other controls such as eq which may either be in the form of control knobs or switches, or set from accessible menus.

The input channels will be routed after mixing to the output bus which could be just one on a mono mixer, two on a stereo mixer or more on a multi output buss mixer. Most mixers will also have some sort of 'Pan' control, which is basically to vary the amount going to each output channel. so anticlockwise will send the signal to the left output buss, clockwise to the right output buss and centre equally to both. In a multi output buss mixer, you would have a further switch to send each channel to the output pair that you want.

If the mixer also includes a built in recorder, like the Premix, there will be a fixed number of record 'Tracks'. So a stereo recorder will just have two record tracks and it will be up to the user to route each channel output to the left and right outputs and record tracks depending on where in the stereo image they want each channel to appear. If you are just using two mics, they could be recorded with one on each track, or both equally on both tracks if you wanted, or offset slightly between left and right. The more input channels you have depending on the mixer, the more you can vary your mic positions in the stereo image.

If the Premix only has two record tracks but 3 mic inputs, you just need to decide where to arrange each mic in the stereo image. If it has three record tracks, then you can record them all separately if you want. I should also say that some recorders have paired tracks so that you can make two identical recordings at different levels as a backup.

This is why you see audio recorders listed as stereo(2 tracks) 4 tracks, 6 track etc. If you are a multi mic user, the the more record tracks you have, the more you can change things at the editing stage.

Hope you are not even more confused now,

Roger


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