Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really?

Ryan Elder · April 29th, 2020, 02:55 PM

Oh okay. I didn't explain it well enough. I meant I didn't have a feed from the lavs, into my headphones, sorry. So when he kept telling the director, the lav tracks were unusable, because of background noise getting through more, I can only go by him saying that, since I didn't hear the tracks.

Well do I need better wind protection for the lavs, since in the one shoot I did so far, the wind got through the wind protection of the lavs no problem, where as the Zeppelin and deadcat, completley blocked it out on the shotgun by comparison?

Paul R Johnson · April 29th, 2020, 03:07 PM

In my productions, I have a member of the crew who's job is to look after the radio mics. They are always trouble, and need somebody who really knows their stuff. Learning how to manage mics is not something you pick up quickly. Sennheiser, DPA and Countryman are what I spend a fortune on, and you have to pick the correct one for the job - all, of course, omni.

One really obvious trick is to protect the opening. Very often people place them so the opening is towards the mouth, but often this exposes them to wind getting in, so you orient them to be less wind facing.

Brian Drysdale · April 29th, 2020, 03:09 PM

You can get windjammers for the lav mics.

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...er-windjammer/

However, you need a plan to hide them.

Other options:

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/overcovers/

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/undercovers/

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...lavalier-foam/

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...to-windjammer/

Ryan Elder · April 29th, 2020, 04:05 PM

Okay thanks. These looked like the ones I used before, but wind still kept getting in:

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/overcovers/

Are they perhaps not as good as others therefore? These ones look interesting, but also look like they would be really hard to hide:

https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...er-windjammer/

Brian Drysdale · April 29th, 2020, 04:52 PM

You're probably only going to use them when it's not practical to use a boom mic, so it's up to you to experiment with methods of using them that hide them out of the wind and the shot.

Hidden Wind protection

Less hidden methods

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/c...-lavalier-mics

Ryan Elder · April 29th, 2020, 05:18 PM

Okay thanks. The last video shows a lot of improvement with the pads on each side of the mic. I can still hear some wind though, so not sure if it's quite acceptable for really good quality, but maybe?

Brian Drysdale · April 30th, 2020, 12:09 AM

If you can't get a boom mic in, you'll have to use another method, either ADR or the lav mic. If it's a drama you're going to be putting effects tracks on top, so very small amounts of wind creeping in will probably get hidden in these layers. You could possibly reduce wind noise a bit further with a suitable high pass filter.

It'll be a judgment call on the day how acceptable the location audio is and if you'll need to ADR it.

You should experiment with these techniques and work out if you can improve on them. The real world doesn't always allow you perfection, all you can do is know how to get the best out of the tools that you've got.

Paul R Johnson · April 30th, 2020, 01:27 AM

If you want really good quality, then you book a studio and replace the dialogue. There is no other solution apart from having a hand held anemometer and only shooting when it doesn't rotate! There is no solution other than what people have told you. Your choice, but stop looking for new solutions that don't exist.

You've also forgotten about interference, battery issues, signal strength and all the everyday RF problems of the damn things.

You have all the options so you're sorted. The key issue is operator skill level. You're probably a couple of years of experience short here.

Pete Cofrancesco · April 30th, 2020, 12:23 PM

So to recap, Ryan went outside on a windy spring day using a lav mic.

Greg Miller · April 30th, 2020, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

... ECM-55. Unfortunately it is huge by today's standards

Although smaller than many of the terrible dynamic lavs of the previous decade! IMHO the ECM-55 was revolutionary. Of course an RE-20 sounds even better, but they're really hard to hide. ;-)

Paul R Johnson · May 1st, 2020, 02:48 AM

Ryan formulates rules based on first poor experiences. Lavs, booming, lenses, mounts, gimbals - I've lost count.

Pete Cofrancesco · May 1st, 2020, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Ryan formulates rules based on first poor experiences. Lavs, booming, lenses, mounts, gimbals - I've lost count.

I just reread the thread. I always assume if someone asks a question it’s based on something they just did or currently involved in. It’s weird to be talking about things that happened a long time ago. Thinking about it, almost all of his threads are him going through hypotheticals while writing the screenplay.

Roger Van Duyn · May 1st, 2020, 08:33 AM

As for wind noise, one thing that definitely helps wearing lavs or using a hand held is having the talent turn their back to the wind and shelter the microphone from the wind. I've watched numerous videos with reporters on location during hurricanes and had no problem hearing them well. Did this tactic get rid of ALL the wind noise? No. But give the audience some credit with being forgiving with appropriate amounts of wind noise. And there's another problem shooting outdoors, angle the light is coming from. If turning from the wind puts them in bad lighting conditions, you may have to compensate for that. You may have to reschedule for a better time, if you can. Being adaptable, resourceful, is very important shooting outside. There's no pat answer that will work all the time. But yes, lavs work well outside, in cities, in the country, a lot of the time, if not most of the time. But no microphone set-up I can think of works all the time under all conditions. And there are times that nothing works well enough to give the results you might want.

Paul R Johnson · May 1st, 2020, 11:06 AM

If the movie was set in a hurricane, then in post you'd be adding wind noise - so in a way - totally wind free audio would be wrong. So much can be cured once you've had the same problem a few times and had time to experiment.

I suppose if the wind noise is out of control, it was simply too windy to shoot!

Greg Miller · May 1st, 2020, 02:49 PM

1.) This is the perfect time to shoot on a city street. There is no traffic. Just pick a calm day.

2.) Ryan, if you are curious about wind noise, get the recorder, get the lav, get the appropriate foam, get the appropriate furry, get some gaffer tape. Spend a few hours playing around. Different mics, different wind treatment, different clothing, will yield different results. You need to experiment. If you wait until the next time you're on the job, and find several wrong ways of doing things, you will develop a bad rep.

At one point I was testing for wind issues, so I just set up a pedestal fan in the room, positioned myself six feet away, and recorded a bunch of tests with different wind treatments on the mic. Voila ... a controlled experiment. No question later about how hard the wind was blowing when I recorded a given take, because it was constant for all the tests.

April 29th, 2020, 02:55 PM	#16
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? Oh okay. I didn't explain it well enough. I meant I didn't have a feed from the lavs, into my headphones, sorry. So when he kept telling the director, the lav tracks were unusable, because of background noise getting through more, I can only go by him saying that, since I didn't hear the tracks. Well do I need better wind protection for the lavs, since in the one shoot I did so far, the wind got through the wind protection of the lavs no problem, where as the Zeppelin and deadcat, completley blocked it out on the shotgun by comparison?

April 29th, 2020, 03:07 PM	#17
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? In my productions, I have a member of the crew who's job is to look after the radio mics. They are always trouble, and need somebody who really knows their stuff. Learning how to manage mics is not something you pick up quickly. Sennheiser, DPA and Countryman are what I spend a fortune on, and you have to pick the correct one for the job - all, of course, omni. One really obvious trick is to protect the opening. Very often people place them so the opening is towards the mouth, but often this exposes them to wind getting in, so you orient them to be less wind facing.

April 29th, 2020, 03:09 PM	#18
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? You can get windjammers for the lav mics. https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...er-windjammer/ However, you need a plan to hide them. Other options: https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/overcovers/ https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/undercovers/ https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...lavalier-foam/ https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...to-windjammer/

April 29th, 2020, 04:05 PM	#19
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? Okay thanks. These looked like the ones I used before, but wind still kept getting in: https://www.mymic.rycote.com/producttypes/overcovers/ Are they perhaps not as good as others therefore? These ones look interesting, but also look like they would be really hard to hide: https://www.mymic.rycote.com/product...er-windjammer/

April 29th, 2020, 04:52 PM	#20
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? You're probably only going to use them when it's not practical to use a boom mic, so it's up to you to experiment with methods of using them that hide them out of the wind and the shot. 7 Ways to Hide a Lavalier Microphone - YouTube How To Hide A Lav Microphone On Every Outfit! - YouTube YouTube Hidden Wind protection Windproofing a lavalier Microphone Trick for outdoor Audio Recording - YouTube Less hidden methods https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/c...-lavalier-mics

April 29th, 2020, 05:18 PM	#21
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? Okay thanks. The last video shows a lot of improvement with the pads on each side of the mic. I can still hear some wind though, so not sure if it's quite acceptable for really good quality, but maybe?

April 30th, 2020, 12:09 AM	#22
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? If you can't get a boom mic in, you'll have to use another method, either ADR or the lav mic. If it's a drama you're going to be putting effects tracks on top, so very small amounts of wind creeping in will probably get hidden in these layers. You could possibly reduce wind noise a bit further with a suitable high pass filter. It'll be a judgment call on the day how acceptable the location audio is and if you'll need to ADR it. You should experiment with these techniques and work out if you can improve on them. The real world doesn't always allow you perfection, all you can do is know how to get the best out of the tools that you've got. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; April 30th, 2020 at 01:03 AM.

April 30th, 2020, 01:27 AM	#23
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? If you want really good quality, then you book a studio and replace the dialogue. There is no other solution apart from having a hand held anemometer and only shooting when it doesn't rotate! There is no solution other than what people have told you. Your choice, but stop looking for new solutions that don't exist. You've also forgotten about interference, battery issues, signal strength and all the everyday RF problems of the damn things. You have all the options so you're sorted. The key issue is operator skill level. You're probably a couple of years of experience short here.

April 30th, 2020, 12:23 PM	#24
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? So to recap, Ryan went outside on a windy spring day using a lav mic.

May 1st, 2020, 02:48 AM	#26
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? Ryan formulates rules based on first poor experiences. Lavs, booming, lenses, mounts, gimbals - I've lost count.

May 1st, 2020, 08:33 AM	#28
Roger Van Duyn Major Player Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Lakeland Florida Posts: 690	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? As for wind noise, one thing that definitely helps wearing lavs or using a hand held is having the talent turn their back to the wind and shelter the microphone from the wind. I've watched numerous videos with reporters on location during hurricanes and had no problem hearing them well. Did this tactic get rid of ALL the wind noise? No. But give the audience some credit with being forgiving with appropriate amounts of wind noise. And there's another problem shooting outdoors, angle the light is coming from. If turning from the wind puts them in bad lighting conditions, you may have to compensate for that. You may have to reschedule for a better time, if you can. Being adaptable, resourceful, is very important shooting outside. There's no pat answer that will work all the time. But yes, lavs work well outside, in cities, in the country, a lot of the time, if not most of the time. But no microphone set-up I can think of works all the time under all conditions. And there are times that nothing works well enough to give the results you might want. __________________ Roger My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAp...2AHr_pHFID5LDA

May 1st, 2020, 11:06 AM	#29
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? If the movie was set in a hurricane, then in post you'd be adding wind noise - so in a way - totally wind free audio would be wrong. So much can be cured once you've had the same problem a few times and had time to experiment. I suppose if the wind noise is out of control, it was simply too windy to shoot!

May 1st, 2020, 02:49 PM	#30
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,786	Re: Do lavs work at all outside in a city, or not really? 1.) This is the perfect time to shoot on a city street. There is no traffic. Just pick a calm day. 2.) Ryan, if you are curious about wind noise, get the recorder, get the lav, get the appropriate foam, get the appropriate furry, get some gaffer tape. Spend a few hours playing around. Different mics, different wind treatment, different clothing, will yield different results. You need to experiment. If you wait until the next time you're on the job, and find several wrong ways of doing things, you will develop a bad rep. At one point I was testing for wind issues, so I just set up a pedestal fan in the room, positioned myself six feet away, and recorded a bunch of tests with different wind treatments on the mic. Voila ... a controlled experiment. No question later about how hard the wind was blowing when I recorded a given take, because it was constant for all the tests.