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-   -   Record to Camera or Digital Recorder? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/54125-record-camera-digital-recorder.html)

Cory Cone November 10th, 2005 01:56 AM

Record to Camera or Digital Recorder?
 
I've been doing some reading, but I'm not sure, what's the better way to go here, is it better to record direct to the DV Tape or better to record to some sort of digital recorder? If it's better to record to a digital recorder let me know why you think so and what's a good recorder to use.

Thanks,
Cory Cone

Ty Ford November 10th, 2005 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Cone
I've been doing some reading, but I'm not sure, what's the better way to go here, is it better to record direct to the DV Tape or better to record to some sort of digital recorder? If it's better to record to a digital recorder let me know why you think so and what's a good recorder to use.

Thanks,
Cory Cone

It's far easier to record to camera, but you CAN get much better audio quality with an external audio recorder. There are many sorts of external recorders. You increase your work load by double recording. Even more so if your DV cam doesn't have a timecode output which you use to sync the recorder (providing the recorder accepts timecode).

Unless you have sync, you have to manually time align the audio with the video in postproduction.

At the moment, one of the best recorders on the market is the Sound Devices 744T.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Dennis Khaye November 14th, 2005 02:50 AM

I like the two system for sound but found out the hard way that the longer the DV tape runs, the more out of synch you're going get with the sound. Doesn't much matter when you're doing short takes but those long sweeping walk and talks will get 'cha if you're not careful.

Steve House November 14th, 2005 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Khaye
I like the two system for sound but found out the hard way that the longer the DV tape runs, the more out of synch you're going get with the sound. Doesn't much matter when you're doing short takes but those long sweeping walk and talks will get 'cha if you're not careful.

It's much easier to correct sync drift with double system if you remember to slate at both the head and the tail of each shot. Using an editor such as Vegas, Wavelab, Nuendo, etc, that allows you to stretch the running time of a clip without either trimming the content or changing the pitch, line up the audio and video head slate frames, go to the end of the shot and expand or contract the audio track as needed to line up the tail slate frames.

Oleg Kaizerman November 14th, 2005 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Cone
I've been doing some reading, but I'm not sure, what's the better way to go here, is it better to record direct to the DV Tape or better to record to some sort of digital recorder? If it's better to record to a digital recorder let me know why you think so and what's a good recorder to use.

Thanks,
Cory Cone

depends what camera you use , the sony dsr-500-450 dvcam or z-1(dvcam mode) are good as dat recorders (16 bit) if you come at line level
the dvx100 and canon xl2 quit sucks
the canon xl-1 sucks allot
didnt check it with the new jvc 100 ( in dv mode)

Cory Cone November 14th, 2005 01:16 PM

Well I own a Canon Optura XI and my friend has an DVX100a. So you're saying is would be better to record to a digital recorder?

Oleg Kaizerman November 14th, 2005 01:32 PM

for what purpose - drama or news?

Cory Cone November 14th, 2005 01:58 PM

Films, short and feature. Drama and Doc style.

Oleg Kaizerman November 14th, 2005 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Cone
Films, short and feature. Drama and Doc style.

get separate recording
now the question how much do you like to invest
do you have some kind of mixer or do you intend run directly?

for direct run - marantz 671 looks like good choice - about 1300 for recorder and 2 cf cards , no tc - manual clap , not a problem for fiction , but quit limiting for documentary.
the fr-2 is about 100-200 more for the same setup, the bonus you can upgrade for tc in the future for another 600.
The new tascam would be the same - but since it still not in the market no one knows how good is it , i guess it would be ok .
it stamp tc , but it doesn't help you allot since you dont have tc out on your cameras ,you may use ext tc generator as horita for stamp and send wireless signal to one of the camera channels and do auto sync later on nle .

for another grand you have the 722 from SD - the benefit is internal hd and the best preamps in that price range devices - no tc - so manual clap only

for little bit different way you can go with 302 mixer from sd and ri from edirol - no tc but you have good preamps 3 channel mixer and 24 bit recording - about 2000 for working setup
few hundred less you have the mt 24 96 with 302 but it suffer from to many bugs - no tc as well
that about all you have in that price range

the next step is 744 from sd 4 channels , only 2 preamps with tc for more then 4 grand and then it jumps for much more for much expensive models .


i dont advise you get used dat - in a short time you wouldn't be able to fix it if something happen, there are already models that the only way is canibalism of the parts from other recorders ( pd-2 ,tascam)

Graham Risdon November 14th, 2005 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Khaye
I like the two system for sound but found out the hard way that the longer the DV tape runs, the more out of synch you're going get with the sound. Doesn't much matter when you're doing short takes but those long sweeping walk and talks will get 'cha if you're not careful.

Hi Dennis
Interesting one this - I shoot DVCAM and have never had a sync drift problem, even with 1.5 hour takes on shows, across multiple cameras. Is it just DV (unlocked audio) that causes this problem for you, or do you use DVCAM too?

Oleg Kaizerman November 14th, 2005 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Risdon
Hi Dennis
Interesting one this - I shoot DVCAM and have never had a sync drift problem, even with 1.5 hour takes on shows, across multiple cameras. Is it just DV (unlocked audio) that causes this problem for you, or do you use DVCAM too?

better question what recorder was in use
i finished 4 X50 minutes drama few months ago during running ext recording on 744 with free run ,we were syncing every 2-3 hours ( manual clap ) the 2-3 dvx which where running free run tc without any problem of drift .

Bill Binder November 14th, 2005 06:31 PM

Some people make the mistake of recording the seperate audio at 16/44.1, while your DV cam is bringing it in at 16/48, and then trying to sync the two without matching them up. I believe this can create slow sync problems over extended periods of time that are avoidable.

Also, someone mentioned running line-in to certain cams works well. That is true depending on the cam, but one thing to remember is that not all "line-in" capable cams are created alike. Some cams take the line-in, pad (attentuate) it down to mic-level, and then run it through the cam's preamp anyway. Can you believe that one? Anyway, it helps to know what your cam will do with a line-in feed (hopefully nothing).

Dennis Khaye November 16th, 2005 12:38 AM

Wow that was back when I used a TRV530 and recorded to a laptop computer via SoundForge. I don't have any of that footage from my formative years but I'll bet it was 48 v 44.1 sample rate problem.

Thank for looking out for me. Didn't mean to steal the thread.

Oleg Kaizerman November 16th, 2005 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Binder
Some people make the mistake of recording the seperate audio at 16/44.1, while your DV cam is bringing it in at 16/48, and then trying to sync the two without matching them up. I believe this can create slow sync problems over extended periods of time that are avoidable.

Also, someone mentioned running line-in to certain cams works well. That is true depending on the cam, but one thing to remember is that not all "line-in" capable cams are created alike. Some cams take the line-in, pad (attentuate) it down to mic-level, and then run it through the cam's preamp anyway. Can you believe that one? Anyway, it helps to know what your cam will do with a line-in feed (hopefully nothing).

to recorg 16/41 is not mistake , mistake is trying it not to resample for the 48 if your time line 48
the sony dv 390-450 cams , dvx100 , z1 , xl1-2 ( rca)are line in , not pad
betacan sp is padded mike level
not sure about all the rest

Steve House November 16th, 2005 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Binder
Some people make the mistake of recording the seperate audio at 16/44.1, while your DV cam is bringing it in at 16/48, and then trying to sync the two without matching them up. I believe this can create slow sync problems over extended periods of time that are avoidable.

Also, someone mentioned running line-in to certain cams works well. That is true depending on the cam, but one thing to remember is that not all "line-in" capable cams are created alike. Some cams take the line-in, pad (attentuate) it down to mic-level, and then run it through the cam's preamp anyway. Can you believe that one? Anyway, it helps to know what your cam will do with a line-in feed (hopefully nothing).

Actually playing a 44.1kHz soundtrack at 48kHz without resampling will drift out of sync very quickly, never mind over extended periods of time. Specifically, the sound is running 48/44.1 or 8% faster than it should. Even after just one second, 32.5 frames worth of sound will play while 30 frames of video are shown. 3 frames per second of screen time is a huge drift since even 1/3 frame out-of-sync can be noticable.


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