VHF Lavs or Shotgun
 

I don't have the money to get UHF lav mics. I was thinking about getting two of these

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Would it be smarter to get the azden $150 shotgun mic? I really don't have the money for the UHF systems so i was wondering if the shotgun would be a better choice. Does anyone have any feedback on these mics? are they good? crapy? could someone please direct me in the right direction...I am only 16.

When you buy too cheaply, you can see the teeth marks on you butt after every shoot.

Regards,

Ty Ford

My problem is that if im going the lav route, i have to have at least two channels. Would it be smarter to get the shotgun?

Brandon,
At 16, you're asking all the right questions. However, you're also getting tea room advice when you are working in a soda pop world. If you can afford the best gear, get it. But without it, look for the best bang for buck.
Azden doesn't deliver quality for cost at any level. For the same amount, you can get used 897's, Rode Videomic's, or other quality used mic. If you've got this low a budget, while you really should try to save up more, you should equally consider used gear. Even now, with literally more than a million bucks in 3 studio rooms, we still snap up good used gear when we find it, there is no shame in used if it's good stuff.
For a low-cost, high performance wireless, look at the AT Pro88W wireless. Not good for any sort of long distance, this wireless sounds better than most any wireless at most any price point. You just can't be farther than about 20' with it, and you have virtually no channel control. (only an A or B channel, on 4 separate channels) If they're good enough for Hollywood, they're good enough for you.
it's wise to start looking for good gear early on, because as Ty mentions, cheap gear (good gear can be inexpensive but never cheap) will leave teeth marks on your butt.

can i hide the mics good on that audio technica? they seem big. and that is my other question. how do you hide the mics.

Brandon, one simple bit of advice: wired first, wireless second.

Shhhh!

'nough said.

You took the words right out of my mouth Doug.

Go for a long audio cable run. Save your money and buy a better wireless when you can afford it. You don't need a wireless when a much less expensive LLOOONNNNNGGG audio cable will do the same job. Two mics? Two long cables!

You can even make them yourself! I do my own cables. Soldering is not as hard as you might think and, again, think of the money you are saving now so you can buy what you really need/want later on!

Best of luck!

p.s. For folks on a tight budget I too recommend the Sennheiser G2 system. I bought one when I added my DVX 100a to my camera collection thinking it would be a toy that wouldn't last. I was wrong. A fine piece of equipment for the money spent. It get a "worth it" from me.

FWIW...I bought my Sennheiser G2, receiver, lav w/trans and block/plug on cube trans for a hand mic for US$500 brand new. Not a bad price for all of those options AND it's frequency agile!

:) In my highschool, there were quite a few guys who owned their own cars. Many were Corvettes. I took the bus.

Ty Ford

Same in most of our teen worlds, :-) but there's a big difference between Daddy buying a car so he can live vicariously thru son, and buying son a high quality audio kit. :-)
I'll bet the 16 year olds you went to school with got that car from dear ole' Dad as a gift or hand-me-down.

I understand what you're saying, but the way the kids in my neighborhood get geared up for sports and music (guitars, amps,etc. ), cell phones and shoes, leads me to believe there isn't a lot of difference.

I made my first recordings with a dixie cup,a piece of string a bar of soap and a zinc coated wash tub full of kreosene. My first "professional" recording was with a Lafayette reel-to-reel quarter track deck and the two little salt shaker mics that came with it. We recorded a piano as the music for a local theater performance of "The Fantastiks." I was very pleased when someone came to me after the show to ask how we had managed to squeeze a piano into the 2-foot space behind the backdrop and the back wall.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I don't think that i can go the wired lav way. I have too many walk n talks and i just don't see it working. :( how would a shotgun work out? what kind should I invest in? my worry ALWAYS is that the volume of the speaker is not loud enough, and there will be no way to bring up the volume in post. I would rather have loud volume and bring it down in post. And my other problem with wired lavs is that you might see the wires.

Sorry to be annoying but I am shooting a feature film and i want everything to be just perfect.

Thanks

When a budget is tight, you have to make compromises. The trick is to make the best kind of compromises (the ones that leave you with the best results). People are trying to give you good advice. Try to listen, and open your mind to different possibilities.

If you could get great sound with cheap shotguns and cheap wireless rigs, then everybody would be using them.

Wired lavs will give you the best sound for the money. Sure, running cables is no fun for walk and talks, but that's why you have a person act as a "cable wrangler". You have to watch your angles a bit more so as not to get the cables in the shot, but that's not that hard to do. If you want wide shots, then you shoot the scene again without the cables. These are the types of compromises that must be made to work within a tight budget.

$200 can get you two decent lavs and cables that you can use for years to come, but is money wasted on any shotgun.

I see. That sounds good to me. Now can you direct me to two good lav mics?

here is the cheapest one on b+h. the price is 54.95. next is $100.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

you tell me.

On a budget, I'd recommend the AT 831b mics. I've won major awards for projects using those mics, and although they're not the absolute best, they're very, very good.
You also might want to check out Giant Squid mics. Google for them. Low cost, made by a young guy just starting out...they sound wonderful, especially considering the cost.

Ok, so here is what i have found for +- $100...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation

Any good? I hate to keep asking the same questions but there is really no budget...it's more of money ourt of my friend and I's pocket.

Careful with the 831b, though as it's a cardioid (directional) lav and how you place it can be very tricky. Talent turns their head away, they're not heard. You can't place the mic upside down as you can with an omni, because you end up with stomach rumble and foot noise.

OTOH, the AT MT830R is a very respectable, small, omni directional mic. I have three of them.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...74a/index.html

It's easy to get confused with all the mic model numbers. There are several versions of the MT830 that have to do with what, if any, sort of plug or power supply comes with the mic.

The ATMT830R comes with the power supply and XLR connector.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Time for me to eat some crow.

When I first bought lavs, I got an AT 803b for less than $100.

The best price I found for this mic is $132 here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Great-Northern-Video

The best price for DSE's recommended AT 831b (basically the cardioid version of the 803b (which is an omni mic) is $128.82 here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Full-Compass

Whether you choose omni or cardioid is a personal and professional choice. I know that DSE tends towards cardioids, and gets great results. I am less professional than he is, and have always tended towards omnis. They're more forgiving in placement (as Ty pointed out), but MAY pick up more background (off axis) noise. I have not found that to be a big problem, but others may.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the mics you posted, so can't render an opinion either way. If money is really tight, you could always use just one omni lav on one of the actors (as long as they're fairly close to each other). Obviously, you'll want to place the mic on the side closest to the other actor. If the non-lav'd actor talks a little bit louder(and stands/sits fairly close to the lav'd actor), you might not even have to adjust the levels in post.

this is a good discussion: 803b vs 831b
 

I've gotten sort of addicted to the idea of good sound, and how it really can be had for cheap with some thought and care.

On this question of the omni 803b vs the 831b cardioid: is the cardioid 831b really categorically better? I'm intrigued by the idea that award winning sound can be got with mics this inexpensive--or is it just that the project won an award, but not specifically for sound?

I'm all for a mic that's easy to use. The idea of an omni is (803b) is appealing. Ty is an audiophile, so his endorsement of the 803b as "respectable" probably means that it's pretty good. But I don't know how to compare Ty's "respectable" 803b to DSE's enthusiastic endorsement of the cardioid 831b.

SO I guess the question is: how much better is the 831b cardioid than the omni 803b, and how hard is it to place a cardioid lav?

Do the dangers of poor cardioid mic placement outweigh the audio quality gains?

Absolutely. A 5.00 mic placed close to a source will sound better than a 5000.00 mic more than 10' from the source in virtually every case. Placement is everything, no matter what mic you use. I wish more videographers would recognize that. You gotta LISTEN.

What he said! With omnis, you don't have to be as picky about mounting. In fact, with end address omnis, you can point them away from the face if the person is overly sibilant and still get good sound.

The cardioid requires more care with placement but if you can do it and there isn't a lot of head turning, you get better sound.

and thanks for beaing zealous about audio quality.

Regards,

Ty Ford

OK guys, but throw me a bone. What's the risk/reward ratio? -And what's the learning curve?

I feel like I know how to get good sound with a boom--get it in close, move it around a bit to find the sweet spot, it's not that hard. Since a live human is holding it, placement variables are not overwhelming.

But mounting a mic has more variables. Is it under clothes? What kind of fabric? Where is it even possible to mount it?

For a kid like me, the critical issue becomes, how many mistakes am I going to have to make before I start using cardioid competently? Is it one of those things where you absolutely have to do it, go through it, make the mistakes and then finally achieve competence? Or are there principles that can be followed--a sort of "top ten rules" of cardioid wireless mic placement that can be followed, leading to "instant competence", without too steep of a learning curve?

My feeling based on this thread is, if Ty remains wary of cardioid lavs, there is some danger there.

Stated another way, if could only choose one type of mic, and you were a beginner like me, who was concerned about usable sound first, and quality sound a close second, would you go cardioid? Would you go cardioid, put in a bit of extra time and care into learning the parameters of proper placement? Or would you avoid cardioid because of the inevitable pitfalls, and stick with the safer omni choice?

At the risk of sounding flip, the learning curve depends on the intelligence and patience of the mixer/recordist. If you can't tell the difference between a good sound and not so good sound, you need training. You can't get it from a website, a book, or even a DVD. Record something. Does it sound like what you hear on reality shows that sound good? Does it sound somewhat close to what you hear on National Geo? Does it sound like most of the shows on Discovery? No? Then record some more.
As far as omni's vs uni's, it's a matter of preference and the situation you're working within. The situations I'm often working within, uni's usually work great. Head turning or not, an omni also will demonstrate a change in sound. It's about the environment.
For whatever reason, you seem to want to create some controversy of one vs the other. They're just tools. That's it. Like a Phillips or regular, Torx, or Quad head screwdriver. Pick the one you need for the job. Sometimes you need one, sometimes you need the other.
The top ten rules of figuring out what mic is best where and how to place them properly?
1. Listen
2. Listen
3. Listen
4. Listen (you get the idea?)

Record, record, record. Try a lot of things. Study guys like Phil Ramone and how he learned to place mics. Read the famous "Dead Rat Solo" story. Experiment like Phil Spector and Bill Hamm did, like Butch Vig does. Use headphones always. Use good headphones if you can afford 100.00.
Run around with a mic trying to find the sweet spot. If it's the body, there are only a couple, but you still gotta find em. Then after you find them, you learn to mount them, hide them, cable them.
Good recordings are a craft and art, not a job that "just anyone can do." It takes years of training.
FWIW, I was named "Debut Jazz Artist of the Year" in 1996 for my 11 solo album.
maybe that makes some sense to you.

You can make your way around the golf course with a five iron, but having a putter and a driver make the round a lot more fun.

You need more than one kind of mic. It's not a this-or-that sort of thing.

Regards,

Ty

The differences between different kinds of screwdrivers, different kinds of golf clubs are unambiguous.

Just an idea from left field, if you're going to have people walk and talk that can be problematic with even the best kit, people tend to loose their breath when walking so they may have some trouble speaking or mics can pickup excessive amount of breathing.
Way to fix this is ADR, re-record what they're saying later with them watching the video. This is not that hard to do, everything then is under your control, no need to worry over mic placement or ambient noise etc.
Still record audio on the day as a guide track and record plenty of ambience to add into the mix later.

Of course if ADR isn't an option then my apologies, still worth keeping in mind.

To a carpenter and a golfer, yes. How's this for a "refinement"; choose between a five iron and a sand wedge when in middle grass off the fairway. It takes some finesse and that takes some experience.

The point is there is NO ONE BEST MIC for everything. Get one of each and discover for yourself when to use each. That's what most of us here have done. Then you will escape the bonds of ambiguity.

Regards,

Ty Ford

831b
 

I had an experience yesterday--I was shooting outside with a Oktava MK012 without a windscreen at school, when my sound professor walked by and started bugging me. I begged him to let me use the school shotgun with windscreen, because the wind noise was unbearable. I'm not sure what the shotgun was--some kind of AT, I'm pretty sure. I learned two things from from using those two mics outside that day:

1) The difference between the mics was SHOCKING. It's not a subtle difference. The AT sounded TERRIBLE. Made the actors' voices sound thin and weasley. This leads me to believe that the differences between mics are bigger than I originally suspected.

2) I need a windscreen; I learned on this board that shotguns are better for outdoors, but that I would rather use the Oktava with a windscreen than some weird shotgun outside anyday.

This has basically led me to the conclusion that DSE's 831b recommendation is the one for me. I am ecstatically happy with the Oktava. Maybe it doesn't really compare with a Schoeps, but I'm sure I won't be listening to one of those anytime soon. Reasoning by anology, if the differences between a mainstream shotgun and a more underground hypercardioid can be that dramatic, I'm willing to bet the sound quality differences between DSE's 831b and the other contenders is quite noticeable too.

But this begs the question--what are the differences between omnis and cardioid lavs' applications? My sound professor cryptically reiterated DSE's and Ty's declaration that omni and cardioid lavs have totally different uses, but failed to elaborate. It's fine to make these screwdriver and golf club analogies, but I could very easily explain to *anyone* that the lower the golf club number, the higher the arc of the golf ball's trajectory, and that different types of screwdriver tips fit into different types of screws. But nobody is telling ME what the difference in application is between cardioid and omni lavs. The only thing I have figured out is that DSE has used a $100 mic to get award winning sound while perilously avoiding noise.

Cardioid lavs are most often used for sound reinforcement applications where feedback can be a problem. The reduced sensitivity on the backside of the mic makes it somewhat easier to control pickup of sounds away from the speaker's mouth. They can also help isolate the speaker in a noisy environment at the price of requiring the talent to reduce their head motion and keep their look consistent, thus you might find them useful to reduce interfering background sounds on location in a "talking heads" scenario where the speaker is always facing directly into the camera.

Omni lavs are used more often than cardioids on talent in general flim/video production and as plant mics on the set where their omni-directional characteristics give more even sound pickup as the talent turns their head one way or the other and moves about the set.

Right Steve,

And about the differences in MC012 and unnamed AT; too little information.

Had the AT beeen damaged? Was it one with a battery and were you running the camera or mixer with the Phantom Power ON at the same time? Did the mic have a LF roll off that was engaged? Was the shotgun plugged into an input with the LF cut engaged? The MC012 comes with three capsules; omni, cardioid and hypercardioid. Which one were you using? Audio is NOT trivial. It is NOT plug and play.

Also, folks often only hear/read the first part of the SHOTGUN OUTSIDE-HYPERCARDIOID INSIDE caution and don't retain the second part. That shotguns can also suck if you're in a reverberant outside environment like on a asphalt or concrete parking lot as well. In many situations, a good hyper can be just fine outside.

"This has basically led me to the conclusion that DSE's 831b recommendation is the one for me."
There is no logic to support this conclusion. You will find good used for both omni and directioanl mics whether they are lavs, booms or hand-held.


"My sound professor cryptically reiterated DSE's and Ty's declaration that omni and cardioid lavs have totally different uses, but failed to elaborate. It's fine to make these screwdriver and golf club analogies, but I could very easily explain to *anyone* that the lower the golf club number, the higher the arc of the golf ball's trajectory, and that different types of screwdriver tips fit into different types of screws. But nobody is telling ME what the difference in application is between cardioid and omni lavs. The only thing I have figured out is that DSE has used a $100 mic to get award winning sound while perilously avoiding noise."

OK, fine, bypass the part where you actually understand why something is better and go for a pre-fixed conclusion. I work with producers all the time who ask me why I'm not using a lav (in a particular situation). My answer is because the hyper sounds better. Maybe you're not a sound person after all, Maybe you just can't get it. I was that way with Calculus.

I agree with your teacher. Get your head into it more. Simple assumptions don't work. Find out why. A couple of courses in Physics, acoustics and electronics will be helpful. Good work is about art and science, but you can't get arty without having the science to back you up.

You can try all the mics on the planet, but unless you can put it all together, which the science allows you to do, you'll be in the dark most of the time. Getting the mics in your hands and experimenting with them is good, but unless you know the science, you'll end up where you did. e.g. Oktava with unknown capsule good, some sort of AT shotgun bad.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Well Mr. Ford, I'm off to the store to see if I can do a side by side comparison of the 830 against the 831 (the omni bundled with the Pro 88W vs the card that must be purchased spearately). It seems like nothing else will do.

Maybe my experience with the oktava is an anomaly--that research on these boards can lead to an exciting purchase based on only reading. You've introduced enough doubt in my mind that I'm going to go have the omni-vs-cardioid experience in person before making another move.

Fischer,
It's not an "omni vs cardioid" argument. It's a "what do I need in this situation. Ty tends to start with an omni in a lot of situations, I tend to try to start with a cardioid. My method requires more cooperation from talent, his method often means extra work in post. And in some cases, Ty likely has to use a cardioid just like I have to use an omni. They're tools. Nothing more.
Would you own a tool box with only Philips screwdrivers?
here's the deal...if the job you're doing only calls for omni's, buy an omni. When you get a job that will call for a uni....buy or rent a uni.
Omni's are safer for the guy who doesn't have control of the talent, but uni's are safer for the guy who has no environmental control.

Mr. Ford was my dad. I'm Ty.

When you do the do with the mics, think about where you would place the mic, where it would point, what it might hear, how you could use it to eliminate noise you didn't want to pick up and how critical placement would be to make use of the directionality.

Look at end address and side address lavs if you can. The two you have chosen are end address. They normally point toward the actor's face. What happens if you turn them away from the face?

How do side address mics differ from end address in how they pickup the voice?

Do all lavs have the same frequency response? Are some brighter? Would those work better under clothing? How much self noise does each one have?

How big are they? can you hide them easily? How do you attach them so you can hide them.

Have fun. Oh, and we'll expect a full report. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

erm, there's not a place in town that has both the 830 and the 831--not samys, not ametron, not locationsound, not guitarcenter. west la music has an 831, and i have to blow some time on the west side tomorrow, and they match any deal you can find, so i'll see if i can compare it to an omni

I have to respectfully disagree. In my case, it most certainly is an "omni vs cardioid" argument. I can rent a wireless kit for $40 a day, but I feel like I can build a better kit that would pay itself off at that rate in ten days (that's $400). But that kit gets two and only two microphones. Unless it's one card and one omni in this case (which I'm tempted to do), in my case, I don't see how it can be aything other than an "omni vs cardioid" argument.

I'll tell you one thing. I like production *a lot* more than post-production. The chances of me myself happily doing post sound work by myself are slim. More and more I'm being convinced the card is it. I'm just curious to see how dramatic the differences are.

Oyyy placement..

audio is not trivial. :)

Ty Ford

I'd have to agree: Placement is absolutely important.

I tested a cardioid lav for a home construction show and all went well until three things happened: Talent turned his head; High winds; lav twisted out of position.

In order to keep the talent's voice source within the sweet spot of the cardiod, the lav mic had to be placed low on the chest, about mid-sternum and carefully fixed in an upward position. Any higher and I'd risk having the voice badly colored by off-axis attenuation.

If the mic ever shifted position on the talent -- and when construction workers swing hammers that's almost guaranteed -- all bets were off.

And for wind: Cardioid mics are very sensitive to wind noise.

Now I use an omni lav with a relatively short reach, and place them carefully.

Not perfect. But generally acceptable.

OK--I'll consider myself warned about the mic slipping around and the head rotating, but wouldn't the included windscreen (in the case of the AT831) be enough to handle normal winds?

Omnis are just as sensitive to wind. Various uni's will operate differently in high wind as well.
Placement is everything with an omni or uni. Omni's simply permit a higher level of flexibility.
Bear in mind, I spend 20 years as a studio engineer and producer before ever laying a mic for a video shoot. In the recording studio, omni's are somewhat rare, and so I learned my craft using mostly uni's. YMMV.

The type of shoot matters as mentioned above in earlier posts.
If you're planning on renting a kit and then going and shooting your show, that's exceptionally poor planning and a recipe for failure. You MUST know what you're doing with that particular piece of gear, or how it will perform under certain situations well in advance of being in that situation. That's why we train, practice, experiment with new products, to know how they'll fit or not fit our normal work regimen. By example, I have a studio mic kit, and a production mic kit. Almost never do the two meet. One is for extremely controlled, studio use and the mics are far too fragile and expensive to be taking to most shoot situations, and then there are the shoot mics, which I'll occasionally use in the studio, with the 4051 and 4053 being the most common "go betweens."

If you can only afford one mic, I'd likely go with an omni. My favorite low-cost omni right now is the AT 899.

Agree with going with the omni
 

I'm probably closer to your level than DSE's or Ty's. I remember what it means to be spending a lot of time concentrating on a lot of different stuff (amateur talent, lack of enough crew, getting up to speed on a lot of skills concurrently, etc.).

For this point in time, I think that you're better off going with an omni. I believe that not only will your life be (a bit) easier on a shoot, but that you'll end up with better audio than you otherwise would. You have too many things to be paying attention to to concentrate adequately on getting the talent to keep their mouths aligned with the axis of the mic.

Once you have more experience and are more comfortable with the whole process, you may find that you want a cardioid lav, too. You'll know when.