Considering spec reel with DVX100 and PS+Technik
 

Hey guys--Well this device certainly seems to be the answer to my prayers. I'm about to embark on shooting a commercial spec reel and was pretty convinced I'd have to finagle my way into some 35 gear, film, and free processing. I'd like to shoot using the DVX100A, but I'm still a little skeptical about resolution issues considering all the glass that's going to be put in front of the CCD. Mizell, I e-mailed you for the DVD, does it include any test ftg with the DVX100? Does anyone else have experience shooting with this DVX100 and the PS Technik? Charles, I read in an earlier thread that you were shooting a commerical with the XL-1 and the PS Technik. In your estimation, are the results good enough to meet the very high standards needed to get hired off a spec reel? And finally, what about simply shooting my spots with the DVX100A, sans PS Technik adapter? Charles, do you think this cam is good enough on its own to work with a spec reel (I wouldn't mind saving some money...but I want to make sure I do this reel right the first time)? OK, thanks for the help guys. As always, much appreciated.

Peter

Peter:

I think that the DVX is good enough to use for a spec reel; most producers do not have the eye to determine what is or isn't digital--and if their project is digital, that's all the better:

"Loved your reel, but we can't afford film; do you have any digital footage you can show us?"

"That was digital".

"Oh!"

The real trick is to light and shoot the living snot out of the footage, and do some killer color correction and/or effects in post as needed to give it a nice commercial gloss. The bottom line really is garbage in, garbage out...it's possible to shoot in natural light with 35mm and get gorgeous results, whereas that's less likely in the same scenario with DV. Really careful control of your exposure ratios and lots of attention to composition and lighting is the ticket.

As far as using the Mini35: absolutely, it's a powerful tool in helping to sell the high-end look. The Amex spots that we shot with the system looked incredible, and I think that many people who view them will assume we originated on 35mm.

The real key here is that demo reels are likely to be seen under less-than desirable situations--DVD's are finally becoming more standardized as a format for demo reels but it is not uncommon to still be asked for your reel on 3/4", believe it or not.

On my DP reel, I have some digital footage intercut with the film material, and while I can personally see the difference, no-one else has ID'd those shots as being originated on tape.

If you have high-speed work (greater than 72 fps, for instance) or scenic vistas (where the resolution of digital vs film is more apparent), you may still want to consider film, although 16mm may be more viable financially assuming an excellent telecine.

Thanks for the excellent advice Charles. Is there any place I can see your AMEX spots? I guess it's impossible to say either way whether the PS+Technik is a "must have", but do you think the diff in production value warrants the cost of a rental? That's great to know people can't tell the diff b/t your film and digital stuff, very encouraging. Do you think the fact that my reel was shot in digital should be kept a secret, or do you think it would be a selling point, to show what I could pull off, even on a $3500 cam? Also, what's the commercial market like now for new directors? OK, thanks again for the very helpful advice,

peter

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Richardson : Thanks for the excellent advice Charles. Is there any place I can see your AMEX spots?>>

Not yet, they will come online in March from what I hear. There's a lot of animation work being done on them at the moment.

<<< I guess it's impossible to say either way whether the PS+Technik is a "must have", but do you think the diff in production value warrants the cost of a rental?>>

I believe so, but again with the caveat that you have to be able to use it properly, which means a solid familiarity with 35mm lenses and accessories as well as shooting techniques.>>

<<Do you think the fact that my reel was shot in digital should be kept a secret, or do you think it would be a selling point, to show what I could pull off, even on a $3500 cam?>>

I wouldn't tell them unless it comes up.

<<Also, what's the commercial market like now for new directors? >>

No different than it's ever been, I guess. It's a tough market to crack, but it sure can be done.

Thanks for the info Charles. Do you have any experience with the DVX100 and PS+Technik? Curious to know what the results are like compared to the XL-1. Also, are there any books you would recommend that could educate me more on 35mm lenses etc.? I read American Cinematographer, went to film school, and when I crew try to hang out with the camera crew as much as possible, or work as camera PA, but are there any other resources you would recommend? Thanks again!

Peter

I guess I'm a little unclear--are you planning a directing reel, a DP reel or both (director/cameraman)? If it's just a directing reel, it would probably be a good idea to get an experienced DP to shoot it for you if at all possible. It's not that hard to find such a person to shoot a good spec for free.

I used the DVX100/mini35 combo on a spec spot recently. The results were outstanding.

We had the mini35 mounted on a PD150, a DVX100, and the JVC HD1. Unfortunately we weren't able to get ahold of an XL1 adapter to be able to do side-by-side tests directly between the DVX and the XL1.

The DVX100 results, like I said, were absolutely fantastic. I've seen the demo DVD, and from what I've seen, I'll go ahead and say that I believe the best "filmlike" results possible from the mini35 are going to come from the DVX100 version. The demo DVD shows mainly XL1 clips, but there's one on there ("Narren") shot on the VX2000 which is every bit as sharp, or sharper, than the Canon footage. The worries about the camera's built-in lens all basically amount to nothing -- the newer technology and higher-resolution chips in the DVX and PD150 easily compensate for the lens differences. The DVX's higher-resolution progressive-scan chips, newer design, and 24P frame rate combine to give very, very, very filmlike results with the mini35.

Go for it, you will not be disappointed.

Good to hear, Barry, thanks for posting that. I'm looking forward to checking out the 400 series Mini35 with the DVX100 soon, I hope. Of even more interest is the PRO35 with the SDX900 Panasonic, which I'm hearing some great feedback about. Very very nice.

Thanks for the great info Barry, that is extremely encouraging to hear. Charles, to answer your question, I'd like to do a director/cameraman reel, hence my interest in lenses etc. Perhaps I just need to spend a little more time with the camera dept. to get the necessary info. But if there are any books or manuals you'd recommend please do let me know. I will def. heed your advice to get as experienced a 1st AC as possible, though, as I generally think things look better in focus ;) Can you let us know when your spots are on the web Charles, I'm anxious to see what this system can do. Thanks!

Peter

Peter,

The DVD that I'm currently sending out only has the XL1s and VX2000 footage as mentioned. We have not had a critical mass of DVX100 submissions to yet make a viable reel.

What I can pass on is that Edward Burns of "The Brother's McMullen" fame has just purchased a complete Mini35/DVX100 system to shoot of his future movies. They have had excellent results so far and film out tests have been very promising.

There is also a video for the Yani Camarena song "Noche de Estrellas" which was shot with the rig and was an MTV Latino top 10 last I spoke with the director.

That is not to say the DVX100 isn't a great camera if used properly. I just got back from the AVN adult expo in Vegas and brought back a bunch of promotional trailer discs. There are a couple of companies that are using that camera and really nailing it...to the point where there is no aesthetic difference between it and Super16 originated footage.

So one question would be, do you want to present a S16 or 35mm reel. The DVX100 by itself will give you S16 if done properly and the Mini35/DVX100 will give 35mm. In all reality it couldn't hurt to have a couple spec spots with each configuration.

As far as telling people what the origination format was, Charles is absolutely correct to say don't mention it until they bring it up. There is still a great predjudice to MiniDV and we recommend all clients present their Mini35 footage on a higher format or DVD, letting the persons convince themselves their seeing high quality, then lower the MiniDV boom. I hear it can be quite exciting to see their faces blanche when their told what their acutally seeing.

As far as a book or manual...it's kinda of like asking for the holy grail. I certainly can't think of any one book or manual that would cover all the subjects properly. There is of course the ASC manual itself. "Cinematography: Theory and Practice" by Blain Brown is very popular at the moment. There's also the book forum here at dvino, http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36 , which might be worth checking out.

mizell

Hey Mizell--Thanks for the great info. It certainly sounds like the mini35 is the way to go. Be sure to post on dvinfo when you guys have some DVX100 footage out. But even without seeing it, I have no doubt the results must be pretty incredible, judging from my own results with the DVX100 and from the footage available online of the mini35 with the XL1. Now the big debate: whether to buy or rent. I checked rental rates here in NY and the DVX100/mini35 pkg goes for 900 a day. I'll probably be shooting my reel in LA, though. Could I expect similar rates there? Ten days with this setup and I might as well buy it. Do the systems depreciate very much? One thought is to buy the system, use it for a couple months to execute the reel and other projects and then sell it. Any idea what the market is like for these systems? OK, enough questions! Thanks for the book recommendation. Take care,

Peter

Now I'm confused. The DVX100 is still recording 4:1:1 sampling, 5:1 compression DV25 in a .91 pixel aspect ratio.

On SDX900 boards, other than the lens quality issues, DVCPro50/DigiBeta recording (4:2:2, 3.3:1 compression) appears to maintain a high quality image. And of course the lens quality where then lens costs 5 times as much as a DVX100.

And on the DVX100 boards, a lot of effort is spend with the anamorphic adapters. Doesn't ZGC sell matte boxes modified for the adapter?

From earlier posts, it seems the Mini35 with 35mm lenses leaves a 4:3 image non-anamorphic image.

So wouldn't the image end up being a 720x376 crop recorded on DV25? Other than DOF, can that stand up against a 16:9 anamorphic image in DV50?

<<Other than DOF, can that stand up against a 16:9 anamorphic image in DV50?>>

No, but that's why the SDX900 costs 6x as much (likewise the PRO35 adaptor vs the Mini35). I would much rather shoot with the SDX900 and would suggest everyone do the same, except that the original question was about the DVX/Mini35 combo and for most readers of this forum, the higher end package is out of reach even as a rental.

Peter,

I believe the rates are comparable in the LA market. Anectdotally I've been told that rental rates out there tend to be more expensive, but are equal to what it would take to rent the equipment for cheaper in New York and having it shipped West.

Rental vs Purchase can be a sticky issue. You mention 10 days with the rig, but is that production days or rental days i.e. 10 rental days is actually 30 production days. For most rental houses figure 3days/wk, 10day/mo.

So for the sake of argument, let's say 10 rental days, or approximately $10,000. That amount of money will buy you the Mini35, but then you still don't have the lenses, tripod, external monitor, etc that comes with the rental package.

The purchase price for a comparable kit to the rental package could easily top $36,000, which has been evidenced by the production I've been working with. Now it's a totally sweet package, but not one that just any person can afford.

As far as depreciation, I cannot make any guarantee, but the 300 series units seemed to hold up rather well. Units that sold for $8,500 were reselling for $6,500 as much as 18 months after purchase. Since we will prolly not be able to lower prices anytime soon, it's quite likely that a 400 series unit will maintain most of it's value.

David,

Your post raises some valid questions, but also splits the conversation down an aesthetic vs technical line.

My comment earlier in the thread concerning DVX100 being comparable to 16mm and Mini35/DVX100 being comparable to 35mm was addressing the aesthetic quality of the production. If Peter wants to create a MiniDV reel for use in obtaining 35mm shoots, then the Mini35 is the answer. If Peter, or anyone else, was looking to break in the Super16 production world then the DVX100 alone could very well be a good option.

I've seen MiniDV and Mini35 blowups and they work well. They're not perfect, but the average audience memeber has been significantly dumbed down to what constitutes quality. Who ever thought 5 years ago that we'd be seeing really bad video phone transmissions shown extensively on the broadcast networks.

For shooting in video, but as close to Super16 as possible, the SDX900 is prolly the only true choice at the moment. It is a great camera. And with the PRO35 attached to it, you've got a setup that could compete nose to nose with any of the HighDef rigs...unless of course they have the PRO35 as well.

So while the 2/3" CCD cameras do offer a better overall quality, the Mini35/DVX100 can produce more aesthetically resonant images that otherwise mask any loss of quality introduced by using MiniDV.

mizell

Hey Mizell--Thanks for the clarification. When I was checking the prices at TCS here in NY for the rental pkg I obviously missed all the accessories (there are a lot) that come with the 950 rate--no wonder it is more than renting the cam and mini35 separately! I think I understand your rental vs. production day explanation. Does this mean that for 950 I actually get three days of rental? Lastly, I checked on your website's list of rental houses but could not find anyone in NY who is renting the mini35 with the DVX100. Are you aware of any who are? Thanks again!

Peter

Peter,

It's 950/rental day.

Let's say, for example, that you were going to check out Feb 9th and return the equipment Feb 18th. Theoretically you would only be charged for 4-5 days. If you returned the morning of the 23rd, you would only be charged 6 rental days.

$950 x 5 rental days = $4,750

$950 x 6 rental days = $5,700

Another thing to consider is that most rental houses do 1 day weekends i.e. if you check out Friday and return the equipment Monday morning you are only charged for 1 rental day.

so to expand the equation: 1day/wkend, 3day/wk, 10day/mth

Anyone reading please remember that I do not represent a rental house and any of this is up to negotiation between the given rental house and the client.

Both TCS and Hand Held in NY have the Mini35 for the DVX100. I know Hand Held's is about to go out on a four week job, but they are considering a second unit to cover that.

mizell

It is really aesthetics...however...

The Mini35 provides the DOF. The SDX provides the rest. Rentals are not that different. The SD and 35mm zooms are about the same. The 35mm primes are cheaper. The Mini35 rents for only a little less than the SDX. They needs similar lens accessories and I believe tripods.

So the comparison is, I think, valid. Aesthetically, for the same cost, which is the better solution for which circumstance?

Thanks Mizell.

David,

Didn't think the comparison wasn't valid.

If we say that you can achieve the same aesthetic with either the Mini35/DVX100 or the PRO35/SDX900 then the decision does come down to technical, as well as logistical and monetary, considerations.

Similarly equipped to the TCS Mini35/DVX100 package, the PRO35/SDX900 package would rent for $1,600, or roughly the cost of a Super16 setup. For a weekend shoot there's a lot to be said that that is not the biggest of differences and why not shoot 2/3". If we look at a month long shoot, that's another $16,000 you have to come up with.

There is also an issue with the acceptance of DVCPRO50. It's a great format, but is not well implemented at all in the major markets, and even less so in the ancillary markets. Unless you pop for the cash on a Panasonic deck of your own to do conversions, you could be stuck with no way to distribute you project or properly post it without going out of market.

MiniDv on the other hand is fully supported and is something they can digitize and edit with relative ease.

Another issue is that of size. While making the DVX100 bigger, the Mini35/DVX100 combo is still smaller then the PRO35/SDX900 combo. I joined a production recently on their test shoots/locations scouts and they were still able to get away with stealing locations because the cam did not look like any recognized professional camera. If a security guard took notice they would immediately start doing tourist poses and waves and the rig was dismissed as some fancy hobbyist rig. The SDX900 on the other hand conforms to the standard form factor seen throughout the broadcast industry for decades and is instantly recognized as something that prolly requires a shooting permit.

mizell

What I was saying is the rental on a SDX900 with SD zoom is about the same as the Mini35 with 35mm zoom. Or are my numbers wrong?

P.S.
In some jurisdictions I understand they confiscate your equipment when shooting without a permit. IMHO, it is not worth the risk.

The SDX900 w/ zoom is prolly about the price of the Mini35/DVX100 rig and while you might get the better quality image technically, you will receive a more aesthetically pleasing image from the Mini35/DVX100. The SDX900 approximates Super16 which does not have the shallow DoF properties that 35mm does.

mizell

I'm still trying to get info about using the mini35 with dvxa in squeeze mode.
As this mode will capture 33% more image horizontally, will we get vignetting on the edges?
Anybody with an answer will be welcome.
Happy new year of the monkey!

Othello,

The reports I have so far is that there is no vignetting issue.

People don't seem particularly happy with the squeeze mode on it's own either. It works for the most part but there are reports that it still doesn't use the whole chip as promised and since it is an electronic approximation, they feel that there is no significant increase in resolution. These are just preliminary anecdotal reports, but it's what I have to pass along at the moment.

anyone else?

Mizell,
I suppose you are right.
I remember downloading files from this forum where we can see that it seems the squeeze is a letterbox expandended vertically.
Therefore , no more resolution , is that right?
But still, isn't it the only solution to shoot 16:9 with the mini 35 ?
Still the same question, I know, but I like this solution better thant putting anamophing lenses in front of prime, in front of mini35, in front of dvx100(a).
Right?

<<<-- Originally posted by Othello Khanh :
As this mode will capture 33% more image horizontally, will we get vignetting on the edges?
-->>>

It does not capture more image horizontally. There will be no vignetting.

Squeeze mode is electronically-stretched letterbox footage. It's the same horizontal field of view as the 4:3 footage.

Thanks Barry,
I think I finally got the picture.
That's why people didn't seem to be recomending squeeze mode.
So now I wonder if getting the dvx a is the right solution.
Paying the extra for advanced mode, still having to use the glass adaptor and still not being able to use the mini 35...
Humm... Need a thought before investing in mini 35 and new dvx100a...

Keep in mind that "squeeze mode" is still capable of delivering much higher resolution on the DVX than any other interlaced camera can deliver. A DVX in "squeeze mode", shooting progressive with thin line detail, will give you about 360 lines of resolution -- as much as you'd get from a Sony PD150 with an anamorphic adapter attached!

So if you use the mini35 with the DVX100 or DVX100A, either in "letterbox" or "squeeze" mode, you'll be getting about 360 lines of resolution. If you choose to add an anamorphic adapter in front of the mini35 lens, you'll get the full 480 lines of the chip -- but at the addition of another piece of glass in front of your lens.

I just got my film print back from the lab, and it has some DVX/mini35/letterbox footage on it. Once I have a chance to screen it, I'll let you know how it looks. The other footage on the reel is from the DVX with anamorphic adapter so we'll see each system back-to-back.

Dear Guru - Barry,
I't's me again.
Can't wait to know about your blow up to 35mm tests.
I Plan to shoot feature with 2 dvx.
Already own a dvx100 and was planning to get an other dvxA to use squeeze and mini 35.
Cam a: dvxa w/ mini 35 and squeeze
cam b: good ol dvx with extra lenses and/or pany 16/9 adapt.
If squeeze is good enough for cam a, I just crop cam b with extra lenses (as cannot use pany 16/9 together with extra lenses (i.e century optic or pany)
This makes sense.
Hope to have news soon, and make my day.
Happy chinese new year from Saigon.