Yo Juan & John,

Just sent Juan an email with a file attachment that's a tiny clip of my flick shot on DVX-100 with anamorphic attachment on it. So go to it guys!!!!!! If you need something else just let me know.

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra :

...If I have enough gate elements and output pins left, i might be able to implement SDI anyway, since the FPGA i'm using can handle it. The S-video is the first priority though.

I'm also thinking about making it scalable or different versions, one with Gigabit ethernet and the other with Firewire800, depending on what the buyer wants.

Juan -->>>

Reply by Randall Larsen:

Sounds great. If you also made the gigabit and firewire800 adaptors with a "camera link" or LVDS inputs you could sell to a wider market (if you wanted to).

Gigabit would probably only allow a 100 meter distance to the computer. You could use a hub to consolidate the output onto one line in multicamera shoots. Gigabit could send the whole 48 bit tif 12 bits /pixel.

There is a new high bandwidth SDI at 500+mbs but I think its only 10bit.

I think SDI coax can be cable compensated to 1000 ft.

Doremi makes a $1000 converter to convert HSDI or SDI to DVI so that low cost computer LCD screens can be used as field monitors for both HD-SDI and SD-SDI.

So there is some value in having an SDI output especially if it doesn't cost you board real estate or pin real estate that you otherwise need.

Email
 

Laurence,

Can you sent it again. It didn't go through.

John

I tried sending it again.

Did you get it?

Nope
 

It must be the attachment size limit on my hotmail account.

Send it to

john@interjective.com

Sorry about the hassle.

Thanks,
John

SDI interface
 

Juan,

An SDI interface (10-bit) could be implemented pretty easily.
National has a one chip solution that even does HD-SDI.

See:

http://www.national.com/search/searc...eywords=clc030

This may not handle the divide by M flavor of HDSDI, but seems to do everything else.

Of course FPGAs are nice because you can update them down the road. National also makes the chips used for "Camera Link interface" found on high end computer vision cameras.

So are you suggesting that the data be up-rezzed in the FPGA and then sent over HD-SDI?

sdi
 

Not necessarily. Uprezzing might be too much overhead. It would also possibly limit the options in post.

I was considering this chip the CLC30 for use with the altasens or the PanavisionSVI or the forthcoming chips from Fillfactory and National. Its a $50 part so maybe its not justified when you can make SDI in the FPGA.

Most standard def sdi is 270mbps now. However a new SMPTE
spec at 540mbp is available. I don't know whether this standard is 4:4:4 it seems from the bit rate that it must be.

The CLC30 handles the high definition so you wouldn't have to redesign the next generation.

sdi
 

Juan,

On the input needed for the sdi chip, it does require a color space conversion to component digital video probably best done in the Fpga unless you can tap processed video from another chip in the DVX100.

Do you know if the camera's image processor maps dead pixels and interpolates their value from their neighbors? Does it map out hot pixels and turn them off? If so you probably have to lose these features for what they are worth if you tap into raw 12 bit video.

Have you figured out how to fix the minor registration problems?

Just an update,

I've been working very hard on the prototype, and it is coming along nicely. SDI will be included for sure(unless i have trouble mass-purchasing a specific FPGA), s-video is close to being done as is the FW800 hardware driver.

Randall:
The raw images I have posted are the images as they come out of the 'dumb' A/D's. Other than the speckles, i haven't found any 'dead' pixels, and i know for sure the little in-camera circuitry that is present up to the A/D's does not do any pixel averaging.

I might be wrong, but if I am, then the hot/dead pixels should be visible in all the RAW postings i have made.

Hi Juan,

If all goes well, I'm wondering if you plan on building all these puppies yourself by hand, (because a lot of people will want one), or are you thinking about mass fabricating?

I personally can't wait to get one.

For starters, i'm planning on building them myself, but I do have other people who are going into this with me.

This is not final, but there will be a website such that you can actually monitor process on the installation, track the unit when it is sent back, etc. Test footage will also be posted as soon as the unit is installed and calibrated, so you can see results even before you get the camera back.

Some parts i might have another company make in bulk, but I will probably do the assembly. I have put a lot of effort into making it a design that can be easily assembled, and is very modular so it's easy to troubleshoot.

Juan

Juan price? do you have a ballpark yet?

Questions
 

Juan, you mentioned way back when that the ability to capture 4:2:2 uncompressed with any gamma changes, etc from the DVX would also be possible via this add-on. Is that still the case?


Also, a question for everyone I have as an independent filmmaker as to how pragmatic is using the 4:4:4 raw image as a method of doing long form projects. What processes would there be to go from the raw to a broadcast format? Is it time consuming to do the conversion? Also what is the gain using the raw since it will be converted to x format anyway (sort of a silly question, but still...)?

A lot of the technical talk is flying over my head and I just want to know what the functional potential is for making films.


thanks for all your hard work.

es

Eduardo,

The SDI output provides digital 10-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed video(YCbCr). The FULL quality RAW video is 4:4:4 12-bit RGB, which is what gets recorded as raw TIFF frames through the FW800 interface. There will also be the option to down-grade the quality that is recorded in the following ways:

RGB:
12-bit
10-bit
8-bit

YCbCr:
4:4:4 12/10/8bit
4:2:2 12/10/8bit
4:1:1 12/10/8bit
4:2:0 12/10/8bit

In either case, you can do all of this in post from the full quality output, but having the hardware do this simplifies the process and allows you to record longer on the same size drive.

I am contemplating the possibility of allowing the user to decide where the dynamic range will be allocated for 10/8bit selection, but that might get a bit complicated.

Juan

So the FW800 interface won't be able to capture the 4:2:2 uncompressed? I ask because The FW800 provides a cost-effective portable soloution as far as shooting on location (least I hope so). There are no SDI portable drives, right?


thanks for your prompt replies.

Yes, the FW800 interface will capture all of the settings i listed above, which are all uncompressed. In addition, the SDI will provide 4:2:2 10-bit, just because that's what the SDI standard is...but you can also get 4:2:2 in any flavor/decimation/precision via FW800.

I took one of the raw images you posted(the one of the tree) and I figured out that there are 382,635 pixels in that grab, yet the DVX100 has 410,000 pixels per CCD. Shouldn't your grabs be bigger?

That's correct, there are however some pixels which are covered up in the DVX, i think they are used to adjust the black level of the image. This is normal and is done in all cameras.

The 410k figure is correct, however a smaller portion actually 'sees' an optical image.

Juan

Hey Juan sorry to bother you but what is the statis of getting a stil(s) image of a gren/blue screen setup. I am really excited about testing out the keying with this type of footage.

No bother at all! Thanks for reminding me, i've been so caught up working on the prototype that i totally forgot. The setup is a little torn apart right now but I can probably manage to do it tomorrow, it doesn't take that much to hook it all up.

Juan

What would everyone suggest is the cheapest way to test SDI video output?

Rental is not an option because I probably need to have it for a relatively long time. Are there any cheap SDI monitors out there? Or is my best choice an SDI computer card, and if so which?

Oh and another dumb question...why exactly wouldn't one use a computer CRT monitor instead of an expensive production video monitor? AFAIK the computer monitors have at least a thousand lines of resolution, and ~some~ control over the image. I have an old small TV as an excuse for a video monitor for editing, and i'm considering using a large Sony computer CRT which is lying around at work.

My little TV is maxed waaaay out as far as resolution goes and the color is terrible...so a better monitor would really help in working with the raw footage off the DVX.

I'm not exactly sure why SDI is a requirement for this. What is the point of it when you can capture onto a firewire 800 disk and monitor with a regular S-video monitor? This seems far more economical than introducing SDI into the mix. Who wants to go out and buy an SDI monitor or deck to capture/monitor this?

My only question about FW800 is how you would design the IO so that the drive captures the data. AFAIK, there is no FW800 version of something like the FW400 quickstream or the Laird capdiv.

This is an exciting project. Let me know if you need any help with marketing it online in terms of content or design. I work for Amazon.com, so I have some experience setting up good customer experiences!

Thanks.

I would imagine that the FW800 drive has no file system as we know them, and is treated as a raw drive. Maybe a basic indexing data structure to mark where shots start and end. Simple.
Personally, I too would dump the SDI stuff. I hate video stuff :)

-Les

A 'FireStore' type drive is NOT needed. ANY Firewire800 drive WILL work. The drive will be formatted in the same manner that you use with your PC/Mac, and the files will be readable by a computer likewise. There is no special formatting, because the Box acts as a host, so it's just like connecting a drive to a computer....except the computer is now the raw capture box mounted on the DVX.

I am doing the SDI because it really isn't that much harder, and i'm sure someone can use it.

Juan

Ya,

Final Cut Pro HD is allowing output to computer monitors so you don't have to use expensive HD video monitors. I'm surprised no one marketed that idea before.

Go Juan! Go Juan! Ya, baby, YAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Juan,
So what file system will be on that firewire drive? NTFS ?
You aren't worried about having to implement the file system directory structure and it's associated latency while pushing the data to the drive?
Perhaps I didn't understand what you said you are doing.
-Les

Dear Laurence
There is no way in Final Cut HD to monitor input while in full screen.The capture mode desactivate the digital cinema desktop preview.

Thanks for clearing that up Emmanuel. Maybe what they meant was just during editing? Not capture? Or heck, maybe I just got my info screwed. Never worked with FCP HD, just saw it on the Apple site.

SDI testing
 

Juan,

Both AJA and Blackmagic make SD and HD SDI pci cards for the MAC. Blackmagic's works also with PCs. I think the price of an SD card in about $300-400 depending on whether you need genlock capability.

Another option for about the same money Marshall makes a decoder box (monitor quality).

You could also build your own decoder box with a National semiconductor all in one chip decoder. You can implement a pattern generator (color bars) in your fpga if you like.

Dual capable SD -HD sdi cards go for about $2000. AJA's will do both upconvert and downconvert if I am not mistaken.

This project has grown quite enormous, as has the thread, but I'll try and offer something of value here, since I'm feeling left out. :P

Juan, to try to answer one of your questions, I believe the reason it's not ideal to use a computer monitor is that most of them (maybe all of them, I'm not sure) don't have SMPTE certified phosphors. What it takes for a phosphor to meet SMPTE specifications I don't know, but the issue at hand, as I understand it, is image reproduction accuracy. A computer monitor, or average television, WILL display the image, just not the way you'd want it to. Sorta like how a cheap pair of speakers might technically be able to recreate really high or low frequency sounds, but they'll end up being a few decibels louder or softer than they should be (i.e. when they were recorded).

Given the proper funds, it's preferable to get a production monitor, but I think the computer display will be physically able to draw the image. And with enough control, I imagine one could get such a display to be relatively accurate.

I think. I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot.

WHOAAAA RANDALL!!!

Kona & Black Magic make $2000 HD-SD capture cards? I thought these things were 7K from Kona (I didn't know about Black Magic). So far the best bang I found for the buck was Igniter X. But if you know the models of these specific Kona, Black Magic, or others, please let me know, becasue I'm putting together a Mac system to use with FCP HD.

Thanks!!!

Les:

The box doesn't really care what format the drive is in, the protocol used to talk to a Firewire800 storage device in this manner doesn't do all the low-level operations associated with the file system. The drive will need to be usable i.e. formated in any manner, but all Firewire800 drives come pre-formatted so that shouldn't be a problem.

Juan

Ooh! Something just occured to me (pardon me if it's been covered already, but I didn't see mention of the subject): will this device offer anything in the way of stop motion capability? Might be useful for some people, being able to record one frame at a time to the disk...can't do that with a tape.

Any plans?

SDI capture boards
 

Laurence,

Because of moores law and competition today's $8,000 board is replaced by tommorows $2000 board (well $2500 list).

Here is the info on AJA's KONA 2:

Quote from: http://aja.com/K-2%20FINAL-PR.htm


Other exciting features found in Kona 2 include:

o RS-422 machine control – connect to any professional tape deck

o Kona desktop output for broadcast design and paint

o Automatic HD/SD genlock

o Input AES sample rate conversion – no audio source sync required

o Break out cables standard (including both BNC and XLR AES cables)

o Optional “K Box” 1RU breakout box with additional features

o Kona 2 QuickTime drivers written and supported by AJA

o AJA award winning telephone support



Kona 2 and K Box Availability and Prices
Kona 2 is priced at US $2,490.00. K Box is priced at US $299.00. Both Kona 2 and K Box will be available in June 2004 and carry a three-year unconditional warranty.

Unquote*****************

The SD board is of course a lot cheaper but can't upconvert SD to HD. This is a monster board at the price. A break out box is available.

Blackmagic's SD board is very competitive to AJAs SD offering. On paper I prefer AJAs KONA 2 HD board over Blackmagic's HD capture board. I haven't read any lab tests yet or tried either.

If you had one of these boards you would want SDI output on the DVX100.

Another outfit is selling gigabit interfaces for analog outs, LVDS outs, and CameraLink outs. Don't know the price yet. I am guessing its around $400:

http://pleora.com/resources/document_library/index.cfm

Another outfit Silicon Imaging will be selling single chip HD cameras using the Altasens 2/3" chip (announcement to come in the next 8 weeks). Based on that company's current Y media sensor based prices $3500 to $4500 these cameras could come in at less than $6,000 with a raw 12-bit output!

Juan's mod for the DVX100 will probably outperform these more expensive cameras because don't forget the DVX100 is a three chip camera (even though SD).

The cheapest HD camera with 3 chips will be the JVC 870 at $20,000 list!

Can't wait to find out what Juan will charge for the basic mod!

FW800 drives have built in file systems ?
 

What is the 'box' you refer too? Does the 'box' just ask the FW800 drive for a file handle to write to?

Are you saying that this firewire drive you want to write to has a built in file system , and you send high level commands to it to accept a big block of data ? i.e. Fopen Fwrite etc, and not raw sectors ?
Then firewire800 is *way* more than a speed up of an old firewire drive !!!!!!

You say that all Firewire800 drives come pre-formatted?
Preformatted with what file system?
How does the PC or Mac OS see the drive?
Please explain or tell me where to learn about this new development of drives that don't rely on the operating system to manage the directory structure! I'm intrigued !

-Les


<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra : Les:

The box doesn't really care what format the drive is in, the protocol used to talk to a Firewire800 storage device in this manner doesn't do all the low-level operations associated with the file system. The drive will need to be usable i.e. formated in any manner, but all Firewire800 drives come pre-formatted so that shouldn't be a problem.

Juan -->>>

Les:

Try www.t10.org all the info is there.

1394b and filesystem for storing the images
 

Juan, I looked at the site, and unfortunately I've seen no reference to file management within 1394b drives. 1394b drives are just faster 1394 drives. They are 'dumb' just like SCSI drives.

Lets see, how can I put this:

I think you are making an interface (box) that writes to a disk drive with attached 1394b interface.
I think you are doing this without a host PC or Mac, it's just the 'box' getting image data from the camera, and it is saving the image stream to the 1394b disk drive.
You state "The 'box' does not care what format the drive is in"

Sounds like writing raw sectors ( no standard file system ) to the drive to me. With a simple dir structure to keep track of the shots, like I said in my first post on this topic.
But.... then you say " The drive will need to be usable i.e. formated in any manner, but all Firewire800 drives come pre-formatted so that shouldn't be a problem"

So which is it? Are you proposing to implement the Mac/PC file system allocation and management in your 'Box' .... or are you doing a custom file system?
That will need PC/Mac software to read it on a personal computer. You can't just mount it and see the data with any old computer.
Perhaps you need to think about this some more?
Do you understand what a file system *is* and how they work?
-Les



<<<-- Originally posted by Juan P. Pertierra : Les:

Try www.t10.org all the info is there. -->>>

the real thing to beat all would be if you could somehow overcrank that puppy with your mod...can you make it shoot 60fps? I know the chips can do it because of the 60i option in the camera...can you force the chips to run at 60fps? and capture that? this is one of the most wanted things for digital ....I know I would pay more for that option ..Juan?

les...how would Juan know how to build the box if he did not know what a file system is????