Any engineers in the house?
 

As many of you have probably noticed, homemade 35mm adapters have become a huge subject on this forum. I'm making one that will work great, only the recorded image ends up being upside down. The Mini35, Pro35, and MOVIEtube use a prism block to invert/revert the image, which is a big part of why they cost thousands of dollars. That's way too expensive for me. I understand that turning the camcorder upside down would solve this problem, but it would also be very unpresentable. So, I am trying to find alternate solutions.

Currently, the process consists of recording the image upside down using an upside down lcd monitor for reference, then digitally flipping the footage in post production, which takes a lot of render time. Many older camcorders' (Sony, Canon, and JVC) checksum values have been modified by unlocking the DV-in feature with a Sony RM95 service remote or PC software. Sony's could even be modified to record a mirror mode image, much like Canon's mirror mode for the lcd screen.

So here's the big question: Is it possible to modify the values, whether permanent or menu selectable, to record an inverted and reverted image onto tape? And if so, who can I talk to that would be able and willing to hack into my camcorder to enable this feature? or does anyone know where I can get the official codes to do the hack myself?
Does there happen to be a secret button combination to flip the recording (similar to the secret colorbars on the XL1)?

Right now, this is just a hairbrain idea, but I'm certainly willing to go through with it if possible. Of course, that won't be until after I gather a whole lot of courage and my warranty runs out in a month or so.

Any help, ideas, or pointers will be very appreciated.

Ditto
 

I'm with you Nicholi! I think correcting image orientation is the Holy Grail of these devices. I believe all of our efforts should turn to seeking out exactly what you're talking about. I'm going to "ask around" to see if I can dig up a Sony engineer who'll give it up and tell me how to invert the image in my camera. I'll post whatever I discover. There has to be enough people running through these threads that someone is bound to "know a guy" who can help. Just imagine being able to simply select an option in your on screen menu and be able to start shooting a corrected image. Lets all pitch in and get it done!

Joe

there used to be a piece of software that would flip inverted images, de riguer, once it was being displayed on a monitor. The software worked on the video display driver. sorry, tho', I can't remember the name of it.

inverting image
 

my thoughts on this : I don,t have a old camcorder to try this on. but the idea is the lcd is connected to the screen with a strap .I think all of the camcorders have this so the lcd can
swing it looks like a hard drive ide cable if we could extend this
10" we could put the lcd where we wanted it. this would even be useful for stedicam use If I had an old one I would take it apart.
and try it

You might look for a surplus Dove Prisim which is the optical device that flips the image. I used to have one a looooong time ago. Try Edmund Scientific.

If I remember correctly , finding a dove prism of adequet size was either expensive or extremely difficult. Definately the problem I have been trying to solve mostly over the past few weeks though.

Also, in order to flip a full frame (36mm x 24mm), the dove prism would have to be way too long. I actually calculated it out, but that's way way back in the Agus thread. Even so, its big.

The other prism approaches I could think of use a Schmidt prism. That would flip the image properly and wouldn't be too big, but it projects the image out at a 45 degree angle. I think this is what the MOVIEtube uses.
Binoculars use Porro prisms to flip the image around. Basically this is just two 45 degree mirrors in that reflect the image horizontally then vertically. I actually made one of these last week out of mirrors and it was huge.
They also sometimes use Amici prisms.
This page provides a long list of potential prisms.

Like Louis said, custom prism blocks are way too expensive, especially when a "roof" is required. Most likely this is a big part of why the mini35, pro35, and MOVIEtube cost thousands.

Keep the dream alive
 

I'm posting just so the dream of a corectly oriented image doesn't die. (and this thread doesn't slip down the list into the nether world) Has anyone had any luck hog tying an engineer from one of the major manufacturers and forced them to spill the beans on how to hack the camera to record an inverted image?

Joe

Sorry if this idea has been posted before. My name is Juan, i am working on a 4:4:4 uncompressed 12-bit mod for the DVX100, there's a thread in this forum.

It is pretty simple to flip the CCD's in the DVX upside down. All the circuitry is on the backside of the chips, so you could rotate them 180 degrees. The only tricky part would be realigning them, but it's doable since there is a service procedure for doing this.

it is possible that this can be done on several other 3-ccd cameras, since they all use prisms and the chips are glued or attached in some other way to the glass.

Cheers,
Juan

prism
 

What about just opening up the optics of the camera and removing the prism that is used in the camer itself? Then it would record an inverted image of an inverted image, and would end up being corrected. Not to mention you would probably increase resolution since it would be one less piece of glass that light has to pass through.

John

you need the prism. if you have 3 CCD's, the prism splits the beam into three such that each CCD can capture a different color.

JVC
 

What about the JVC MiniHD camera... that's just one chip. And isn't the industry moving towards one chip with three layers. Would the color still need to be split up for that?

John

nope, if you have 1CCD you don't need the prism, but then the idea still doesn't work because you don't have a prism to remove. :)

AHHHHHHH
 

Well what about placing a smaller cheaper prism inside the optics of the camera? You wouldn't need as bulky of prism as for the adapter would you? ...come on, I have to get at least one of these right... ;)

Hi Juan, as for the DVX100, short of phsyically flipping the CCDs, is there any way to just have the image display itself in the LCD or viewfinder flipped in X and Y? Some kind of "menu hack" like Nicoli suggested?

Please forgive my ignorance of what is and isn't possible with a service remote.

Juan,
I've been following your 4:4:4 thread and am very intrigued by your experiments. I think its a great idea and will end up being a very usable hack for zero budget moviemakers like myself. I'm actually suprised at how quickly you're developing these experiments and am looking forward to your future findings.

John,
I was very enthusiastic about finding a way to modify my camcorder to record an inverted and reverted image and, as you've read, asked a lot of questions. After a while, I started thinking that with all of the real-time editors out now, its really not such a setback to flip the image in post thanks to no render time requirements. Rotating the DVX's ccds would be a neat idea, but would also cause the camcorder image to be flipped during normal video recording, so the camcorder would basically have to be a designated 35mm adapted recorder. I guess what I'm getting to is that even though your prism idea is valid, it probably wouldn't be worth the time and money since you can just flip it so easily in post. Of course, if you really want to experiment with that, I say go for it. Honestly, that's how the 35mm adapter and 4:4:4 threads began, and they've become huge.

Joel,
It sounds like you're asking about just flipping the image on the lcd and not effecting the actual recorded image. This thread actually approaches the idea of how to do just that. Alain Dumais figured out how to trick his VX2000 into thinking the lcd was flipped around (for viewing from in front of the camcorder) which gave me the confidence to figure out how to trick my GL2. The two cameras actually have completely different mechanisms for flipping the image and yours could use either or even another type, but maybe you could use these as reference for the DVX? You might want to try talking to Brett Erskine about flipping the lcd image because he may or may not have figured it out for his DVX. Last I heard, he was experimenting at the same time as I was with the GL2, but never posted a result.

Nicholi, thanks for the link. I'm going to look into it. I'm already excited. Sorry I misspelled your name in my last post.

Hes a update for Nicholi and anyone else trying to trick their camera into fliping the image (in the monitor only) on the DVX100. It looks like its a mechanical switch set to trigger when you rotate the monitor. I tried to unscrew the screws around that area but was unable to get access to where I believe the switch would be. Im going to have to talk to a Panasonic tech about this. Once inside it should be real easy to trigger. In fact I plan on putting a small/simple switch on the outside of my DVX100 so I can shoot with and without the adapter quickly. Please by all means call up the techs yourself and tell us IN DETAIL what you find out.

Brett Erskine
www.CinematographerReels.com

The switch is right inside the outside shell where the axis of the display goes into the case. It is on the bottom, it has a little circuit board with the black switch on it, looks like some small soldering but the contacts are easily accessible.

Juan

I just tried the idea of using a magnet to trick the monitor to flip the image and it works....BUT I think the magnet might be harmful to the monitor because it started to flash and loose the signal. Im not sure if you can do fatal damage to it so before you try it for yourself hop on google and find out what magnets do to LCD screens.

-Brett Erskine

I tried with the magnet that is already attached to the camera. (XM2 or GL2). Under the LCD there's a small rubber seal that you can take of and it has the litle magnet on it. I used that magnet and it worked OK, without flashings or anything else.

Cosmin, that's the simplest way because it fits in there nicely, but one quick movement and you'll lose the magnet, which wouldn't be good. That's how I rigged it at first, but then figured out that the thin fridge magnet works the same. That's probably a safer idea.

For recording
 

the cheapest, most and most optically perfect pathway is to leave it inverted.

I can see the point of viewing the image inverted for framing purposes but capturing? The only justification I can see for that is for live broadcast.

If you are editing or doing any post the transform is just too easy scale -100% on the vertical axis. even if you have a modest PC it'll take no time at all.

best of all except for the small amount of time it's free.

the glass needed to do this optically is either cost or quality prohibitive.

posso prism
 

made a posso prism system is not to expensiv

porro & roof prism??

quote:Porro Prisms are narrow right angle prisms used in pairs to make a system that erects and reverts an image from the objective lens of an optical system.



you know that porro prism act like roof prism to revert image???

how to use ??? to "erects and reverts an image" ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porro_prism


link for porro prism maby "big" for for us
http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/Porro2Class.htm
http://www.aosa.es/Ing/Catalogo/optica/prismas/notpor.htm


and this look like p+S kit ;) ;)
http://hardinoptical.com/tvporro.html

__________________
http://paolo.rudelli.lickthetoad.org