Les, sorry but I don't know enough about this to answer that. Have you checked the forum on the Elphel site? (I posted the link some posts back)

I got a reply from the Belgian guy. It's a very nice guy and he's interested in this project. He says:
<<I can record 18minute long files (2gb file limit). >>
<<The problem I have is I have constantly moving complex image & if the image becomes very complex (under trees in a sunny forest) the mjpeg becomes bigger & thus you start to drop frames if you’re already pushing the limit of your laptops ability to move the data to the hard drive.>>

You should know that he is filming on the road from a car, so that is really the worst case compared to most indoor scenes most of us would probably need to film.
He offered to meet him and see how the camera would do on my 1.5Ghz laptop. I hope I can find a way to do that, because he lives on the other end of Belgium(but he also says he's in Holland soon for work).

About a group discount proposal to Elphel...it's not a bad idea. We have to keep it in mind..

Elphel has indicated to me special deals for people the want to develop the camera. So if anybody here would like to develop a video capture front end, and/or disk recording solution, than he may, hopefully, help.

Now for some news, there is a new PDA like PC platform coming, and prices will be around that of a cheap laptop, but it gives a good handheld small form-factor computer and monitor. Maybe as a good recording platform (as long as you can connect something to record the ?100Mb/s stream. As long as you know what your doing, but this is not so demanding as the Raw cinema cameras as 100Mb/s is only a fraction of what they were doing. You might even consider a PDA of some sort.

http://www.origamiproject.com

The good news is that flash card memory devices are quiet low, so in theory faster versions (that can sustain 100Mb/s) in USB2 or Flash variations (they usually are the cheapest) of 8GB might be possible.

Just remember with the 333 camera, it's advantage is Ogg, but nowhere have I seen, or been told exactly what bit rate it can use in the Ethernet stream, what compression rate, or how it particularly performs in relation to Mpeg2. I have viewed the video clips under magnification, and it does worry me, it would be good to get these answers from Elphel first.

The only other consideration is work flow! Capture edit effects, trans-code to finale, how is it goign to happen. Maybe one of the Linux editor/capture applications like Cinelerra (used in the movie industry) already does it, but I have seen no information.

Re-edit: Sorry for the repeat I only just saw the posts on the free Elphel stuff on the previous page.

Les, there has been cameras around for flash/strobe photography for years, i am sure their are a number, I even think that bayer VGA camera I posted before might have some such synchronisation feature on it that might help.

I did find a cheaper camera than the Elphel, "artray" is there name, but there is no compression etc that Elphel offers, and I don't know if the chips are of high enough quality compared to the mid quality ones used for the Elphel. Maybe it worth going through there site to see if any of the models support it.

Thanks Wayne,
I only need about 1.3 megapixels for this camera. It just has to support some kind of trigger mechanism.

Maybe the Sync signal can be used as a trigger on different cameras?

The artray cameras do support external trigger, that's good. But where can I get one, and for how much ? I see they sell in Australia ?
I hate web sites that make it hard to *buy* the damned product they are trying to sell!!!!
-Les

They have a website in Japan, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, that's where you buy order the Australian ones from.

If you want compressed video etc, it might be worth checking out the Elphel first and paying the extra couple of hundred of dollars.

Any pricing on these artray cameras? You said they are cheaper, but by how much ?
I don't need compressed, and that other cam is a little too much of an 'always in beta' mode for me!

Wayne, I got another reply from the Belgian about this(must be something new):
<<< The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). The liveCD is a bootable OS so your Laptop will boot from the CD drive rather then the hard drive. It does not matter what OS you have installed on the drive.>>>

I hope I have some time to meet him and try out the cameras (he owns the 313 and the 333).
The only problem he mentioned (I quoted him some posts back) is that the file size goes up when there is a lot of moving detail (like trees) because of the compression (or lack of it to sustain the quality)
Now I was wondering.. using a 35mm adapter washes out a lot of detail in the out of focus area's because of the short Depth of Field. Wouldn't that be an advantage?

I don't know, depends on how the compression works, but I am more interested in how this Ogg can be made to perform, is it any good for us?


Les

I can't locate the price list at the moment, but I believe it was $550. It is a shame I couldn't get a group together to compile a list of cheap cameras out there, back in the Digital Cinema days.

Are there still people around who are considering to suggest a group discount on the Elphel 333 camera?
The thing I like about the camera is that it is in constant development.
The Belgian guy (who is actually British) who owns the camera says that the software has been improved much the last year. He can now edit avi files in windows...something that wasn't possible before. It also has auto exposure & white balance now.

The liveCD thing (the software that comes with the camera) as I understand it, is a bootable OS that runs right from the CD. So you can just as well have windows installed on the computer.

Oscar, could you find if it is possible to record using windows as an OS, well to run the camera's operating system software? is this information correct. to use windows with the liveCD ?

I think that's a general truth, I've noticed that when compressing video footage (doesn't matter if the target is mjpeg or MPEG1/MPEG2 using i-frames), you need a higher bitrate than you need on footage from film. This is because of "less detail" in areas that are out of focus.

Forrest,
The liveCD is an OS by itself running from the CD. So it just boots from the CD in stead of windows. Is that what you mean or do you really want to use windows for a recording OS for some reason?
The guy I'm talking to says:
<<<The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). >>>

no, you got it Oscar, thats what i meant. i was just making sure you could run the live CD on windows, and not have to use a linux system. i wonder if the software on live CD allows us to make the avi files originally or do we have to modify the software to do that? thanks.

Forrest, if it needs to be modified, it has been done already and all software and updates are shared for free I guess, because it's an open source project.

Thanks Oscar. I figured it has been updated. Well i forgot to ask about this a while back, but didnt think about it at the time. How does this camera use a shutter? does it even have one? and if so, is it adjustable so that we can make it do say, 1/48th second or 1/200 sec and so on? thanks. is the shutter the same thing as the exposure speed on this camera or not? thanks.

Forrest, I'm not really sure, but maybe you or someone can interpret the specs of the sensor http://www.micron.com/products/imagi...s/MT9T001.html

Would Global pixel reset mean that it uses a variant of a global shutter? Anyway it's not a mechanical shutter.

About the shutter settings, you can look at the live camera controls on this page (it's the 313 model, but I guess the controls are about the same.)

I'm planning on buying a 333. I'm not going to try and get a discount, because I'm not a programmer. Unless it's a group discount and we share our setups and findings here or on the Elphel forum. Maybe it's worth a shot?

and you can also look here.
http://download.micron.com/pdf/datas...01_3100_DS.pdf
this is the data sheet of the sensor. on page 43 it talks about its "global shutter" and also states it can be combined with a mechanical shutter. But does it need a mechanical shutter? becuase it also mentions "bulb mode" exposure also. im lost in all the technical things of it. And building a mechanical shutter for this could be pretty hard i would think.

Look in Obin's thread, he used a sensor with this global reset, I don't remember what it is, but resetting the pixels globally should help cut down the rolling shutter.

alright, to summarize, i am getting an Elphel Camera shipped to me, it will arive monday afternoon. I will build a spinning adapter for it and possibly an optical viewfinder between the adapter and the Elphel camera. i would appreciate any help and advice or findings, and i will continue to post my progress on making this into a cinema camera. i should probally start a new thread. let me know what you guys think

Go Forest,
Go Forest,
Go Go,
Go Forest


(sorry, went to a basketball game last night. I'll be eagerly watching your progress). Have you built an adapter before?

thanks! yes, i have built a static adapter and have redone it about 3 times. it was based off of the Aldu35 design. and i made a 1000 grit gg with alumin oxide. but i dont think that 1000 grit has very good diffusion. but ive also prepared to make a spinning gg for this camera. and Wayne Kinney taught a very good method to increase light transmission by rubbing vaseline over 200 grit surface and then wiping it off. it creates a wet look and when you use it, you barely lose perhaps about .5 of an f stop. perhaps a little less. so i am going to do that.
And i'll basically use the mediachance dof adapter as the basics for mine. Except, right behind the gg and condenser, im going to put a 45 degree angled glass facing to the left. connected over to a mirror that will face up. This will be incorporated into a homemade optical viewfinder. the condenser i use will be a perfect 35mm by 24mm frame size (which i have) so i can easily see the edge of the frame from looking trhough the viewfinder. Thank you very much, and when it comes, ill try to get video as soon as i can.

Forrest, which Codec are you planning on using?

Maybe you can ask him if he has one of the Ibis5a test sensor boards hanging around (the 2/3rd inch 5a has a some nifty features over the Micron).

Wayne, will that sensor be compatiable with Andrey's model design? That would be cool if it would be as simple as resoldering some pins, but im no expert beyond that. i was planning to record ogg format files and then convert them to avi. or if its possible, just record avi files directly. thanks

Ha, Forrest..
Good to hear that you ordered the camera. I am trying to place on order for Europe, but somehow they (Europe) haven't replied yet. I emailed again today.
I'll do almost the same setup as you, only I'll be making a microwax glass.

It time to think a new way guys
 

http://www.pleora.com
have a look

pleora Iport can take the input from RAW or Cameralink Cameras and pump it via GIGE on Fiber direct in a PC MEMORY

They can do the same with SDI etc

Dalsa, Toshiba, Teli, Jai Pulnix, Imperc, prosilica have it as Asic allready inside.
Pulnix can do 1392x1040 at 30 fps with an 1/2" CCD or 2/3 CCD and GiGE

Dalsa Coreco has annonced it's X64 GiGE Series , which can be connected to a wide range of camera, and pump it to a PC

There is Tatile too and Giga Linx they have vAtoms or vAtom Krypton which can do 720 MHZ

www.xilinx.com
there is the hottest tool to design asic's in a clever and fast way.

have fun

so the race it open now

As far as I understand, the boards can take multiple sensors, on daughter cards, and Andrey was testing the Ibis5 on his cameras before (but decided to go with the Micron instead). So maybe he has a test one available that you could ask him about. But some questions you should ask first, support in the software for it. Is it an Ibis5a, or newer, the normal Ibis is not as good. Many Ibis5a cameras rely on the internal ADC (analogue to digital converter) which proves to be noisy and not as good as a good external ADC. Also, care in designing certain external circuits further increases performance (but I don't remember what about it). So, you probably need to ask him if it has the external circuit enhancements, and a good external ADC (believe me, you don't want one that doesn't at all, one guy tried a Ibis5x based camera like this and he shoots were, poor). Use advance search by post, for IBIS related stuff in the digital cinema camera, and Drake, threads, Steven Nor????? from Silicon Image, and Rai that did the Drake camera, are the two people that knew the most about it, and might have mentioned something.

There is footage shoot with the Ibis5x somewhere, have a look on the download/information/developers page, and see what you think (look for how it handles low light, and how it handles high contrast as well, taking notice of just how bright the sun is in the pat of the world shot in).

The bayer color filter sucks some light up, and the color spectral response curve of the Ibis mask has been questioned because of overlaps in the filters, but I know there is natural overlap in human vision, so I don't know exactly how bad/good it is.

I wish you luck with your cameras guys, I am looking forward to seeing what you can get out of this camera.


Thanks

Wayne.

Ronald, what have you been upto? You were going to do Linux camera, and in fact this is such a camera, with Linux bootable CD, ethernet, compressed, directly to compute memory, maybe you would like to be involved? We are all babes dancing in the woods compared to your experience ;).

I had a look at those capture cables, good find. This is the item Silicon Image was trying to sell us on.

I've email them to find out about analogue capture too.

what have I been upto?
 

Nothing at all
I do think as the new 3CCD Canon is out doing SDI out
there is no sense anymore to build a low cost Viper.

I'm totally stupid, dump; with no education doing Math's like 3+2 =6 so what?
Even can not write proper English, so what?

I do guess there is no market for a low cost viper, and a small group has never the power to step into.

What happened to the Kreines camera, good idea anyway, at SMPTE a big bang, a second smaller one and some smoke, no news anymore good or bad, who knows?

Drake since two years around lot's of talk.

To play an intellectual academic play I do have no money left.

It hardly compares in price, or performance, to a 2/3rd Ibis or Altasens, and if Red comes out much below $20K (we don't know) then Canon is the option left out in the middle. We already have Silicon Image Altasens system for around $7.K.

I am now very sure that sub $1000 higher quality HD is possibly.

Sorry, I never thought you stupid, your one of the intelligent ones ;). I thought you were seriously doing something in the background before.

Drake don't talk to me no more either, we hear they split in two, but what is happening, we don't know, they probably try to go forwards, wait and see. Unless they go in the way I suggested, maybe Red will squash. Same with Sumix, are they working in the background too, or are they don't care to tell us they have cut us loose. They were goign to do around 3K camera for 50 orders, I'm sure the market is bigger. Maybe they find out that we all go to Micron and Silicon Image (which is what I was afraid of) and say stuff us. But good, experienced, knowledgeable, realtime Linux open source programmers assistance to do program on an off the shelf system, is the only cheap way to go, but none smart enough to listen. One thing for certain, everybody after our money, and pricing reflects.


Thanks

Wayne.

i posted some test stills from the elphel camera

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63677