Help with Lenses
 

Hi, I just put in my order for a mini35 for my Xl-1s. I am using it on my DV feature film.

I am still trying to figure out the lenses I should get. Originally I had planned on renting them, but for insurance and other reasons, it's more of a hassle than I would like. I am now more thinking about buying a couple of lenses. I don't know much about 35mm lenses so obviously I am going to check out, but I wanted to get your opinions.

My feature involves a lot of shots in cars and several shots at night as well. I am shooting a lot outside during the day and at night inside. I am going for a very beautiful, bright, and warm feel.

With my little knowledge of 35mm lenses, I thought that renting a couple of Cooke 1.4 primes would be best. I had planned on a 25mm and a 50mm probably. As I said, renting is a hassle, so I was looking to buy used lenses instead. I saw some used Cooke Kinetal T2 lenses that were fairly cheap.

I am really wondering what you think about the choice to purchase those lenses. They are about a 10th of the price of the lenses I would be renting. I would like to always have access to the lenses instead of having to rent stuff to just use my camera. And I definitely cannot afford to buy $1000+ lenses.

I am also wondering if you think that having just 2 lenses is a bad idea. I know I need a sort of wide angle lens(to film inside the cars) and then a medium lens to shoot a lot of the rest of it. I really don't know why I would need a full set including 75mm and 35mm lenses for example.

Also, since I am shooting at night in several scenes, do you think that having a t2 lens instead of a t1.4 lens makes such a huge difference.

THANKS!

I'm very happy so far with nikons...

Dave:

Picking your lens set is a stylistic choice that no-one can make for you. There have been entire films made with a single focal length (Wes Anderson is fond of this; both Bottle Rocket and Rushmore were made this way) but this is certainly the exception.

If you are shooting on location, there are likely to be many times when you want to get the shot a little wider and you're backed up against a wall, or something is preventing you from getting close enough, etc. You mention that you will be shooting in cars; there's a perfect example where the number of places you can get the camera is limited by the structure, and the actors are somewhat fixed by the seats, so you may find that your 2 lenses are "neither here nor there". Also factor in minimum focus for the lenses, and make sure that you don't intend to shoot anything tighter than can be achieved by your longer (50mm) lens at minimum. Really, I could come up with a dozen reasons why I would and do use a 35mm or a 75mm, but then again, see the first sentence of this post! My standard lens order: 18, 25, 35, 50, 75, 100, 150, with as many of the following as can the budget will allow: 10, 14, 21, 40...

Lens choices...
 

One thing I would add about using still lenses as opposed to cine ones on your Mini35 is that still lenses have a greater chance of "breathing" during focus and/or zoom.

Lens breathing is the shifting of the image during focus or zoom operations. This may happen since still lenses just weren't designed for picture taking during a focus/zoom operation.

Given that, I have successully used Nikon AF-S lenses on my Mini35 without said breathing.

Thanks a lot for the input guys! I see that people love to use Nikon lenses with the mini35.

I was told by a person who rents the mini35 that lenses slower than f2(or t2, I can't remember) would vignette. Have you guys using the Nikons had vignetting problems before?

I am now looking into getting a set of an 18mm, 35mm, and an 85mm. Nikon lenses. These were the lengths recommended if I were to get 3 lenses. I am worried that the 35mm might be a little wide though. Maybe a 50mm might work better...

What about the difference between the Nikon AF and manual lenses. Are their any that would apply to the mini35 system?

Huh?
 

I've used alot of f/2.8 lenses on my Mini35 and I haven't noticed any vignetting and this includes the 16mm fisheye, 14mm, 17-35mm, 28-70mm, and 80-200mm, and the 85mm f/1.4

Getting depth of field
 

I realise depth of field is dependent on several factors. However Which 35mm lens will i need to give me that beautiful shallow depth of field i see on the mini samples?

Lenses and depth of field
 

Well, the factors are max aperture, distance to subject, and focal length...so, lenswise, anything below f/2.8 and longer focal lengths. Nikon 85mm/1.4 is great for shallow depth of field and good subject to camera distance...and if you really want to blow out the background...a 300mm/2.8 would do the trick but that's just crazy at that point. :)

Sorry for the basic question.. I only know video..could you please explain lens speeds and how they relate to the mini 35? In other words what is the praticale difference between a 50mm 2.8 and 1.4?

Differences in aperture...
 

Video lenses and still lenses act the same in terms of aperture. Larger aperture numbers mean less light is let through the lens. So, an f/2.8 lens lets in half as much light as an f/1.4 lens. Also, an f/2.8 lens will have more depth of field for a given lens and lens-to-subject distance than an f/1.4 lens.

Shooting with the DVX100 on the Mini35 would a 2.8 lens present contant lighting challenges? Not trying to over simplify lighting but In other words would I have to light twice as much indoors to get "normal" exposure?

Would this do the trick? Nikon Autofocus 28-200mm ED-IF Zoom Lens How can I ascertain the speed of this lens in the following post?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3343&item=3820343640&rd=1

DVX100/Mini35/2.8
 

The zoom lens you pointed out is a 28-200mm f/3.5-5.6 which means at the 28mm end it is f/3.5 and at the 200mm end it is f/5.6. It's a fairly slow lens.

Also, remember with the Mini35, there is some light loss. I think it's about 1 1/2 stops which means an f/2.8 lens will, light wise, really be an f/4.5 lens. The depth of field will remain the same as f/2.8 however.

So, will a f/2.8 lens on the Mini35 present constant lighting challenges? Well, that depends on how much light you have. :)

If you're going to rely on ambient light, you may have to boost the gain on the DVX in order to get "normal" exposure. Or, if you don't want to boost the gain, then you are going to have to add additional lights to light your set.

It's as simple and as complex as that. :)

<<So, an f/2.8 lens lets in half as much light as an f/1.4 lens.>>

To be annoyingly scientific, each stop represents a halving (or doubling) of light. 2.8 is 2 stops down from a 1.4, thus it allows 1/4 of the light transmission of a 1.4 stop.

Does anyone have samples (screenshots or movies) of footage shot with Nikkon lenses. Will I notice a huge stylistic difference between these lenses and say Cooke cine lenses. Could someone who is happy with their lenses recommend the exact models you are using so that I can research/and or buy them? It looks like faster speed lenses are what I will need. Thanks for the info.

well not with a nikon, but with a konvas 37-140mm zoom lense so when someone posts pics shot with nikon or other lenses you perhaps can see differences between different kind of lenses.
its a quite slow lense f3.5 / t4.5
i made some tests a week ago and it was more or less cloudy. but still more than enough light (the pics are from that tests).
i also made some other tests today and it was a hot summer day. there was so much light i had to stop the lense down to the bottom. when there would be that much light every time, you wouldnt have to worry about speed anymore ;-)

where just soem quick tets, the intention of the tests where something different. but that deep of field is really amazing.
i made quick auto color correction on one pic (copy and paste into ie bar, the free spaces at the end dont work correct on direct links i guess)

http://home.t-online.de/home/jcarter/zoom 2.JPG
http://home.t-online.de/home/jcarter/zoom 3.JPG
http://home.t-online.de/home/jcarter...rcorrected.JPG

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert :
To be annoyingly scientific, each stop represents a halving (or doubling) of light. 2.8 is 2 stops down from a 1.4, thus it allows 1/4 of the light transmission of a 1.4 stop. -->>>

Yup...forgot there was an f/2 in between 2.8 and 1.4 :)

And they call me a photographer...heh! :)

<<Does anyone have samples (screenshots or movies) of footage shot with Nikkon lenses. Will I notice a huge stylistic difference between these lenses and say Cooke cine lenses. Could someone who is happy with their lenses recommend the exact models you are using so that I can research/and or buy them? It looks like faster speed lenses are what I will need. Thanks for the info.
>>>

Hi Dan. I'm on the road right now, but could try and post a couple of stills from a hand held promo shoot using, I think, both 50mm and 85mm Nikons. I'm sure this has been asked before, but is there a way to post stills here?

Actually everyone I will have a new mini35 adaptor and 4 new Nikon lenses in my hands by Thursday. I will post test shots ASAP!

Dave...would you mind letting us know the specific Nikons you decided to buy? Thanks.

I ended up getting:

Super Wide Angle AF Nikkor 20mm f/2.8D AF
Wide Angle 35mm f/1.4 AIS MF
Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D AF
Telephoto 85mm f/1.4 AIS MF

<<Dave...would you mind letting us know the specific Nikons you decided to buy? Thanks.>>

Josh, you should do a quick search for Nikon Lenses in this forum. I believe I'm pretty much the first person that put together a Nikon setup with the Mini35 working with Guy at ZGC to deal with any potential issues with vignetting and speed re spinning glass.

I've shot a good deal of commercial and documentary work witht he setup over the past couple of years and wrote a pretty comprehensive overview of my lens set, speeds etc.

<<Super Wide Angle AF Nikkor 20mm f/2.8D AF
Wide Angle 35mm f/1.4 AIS MF
Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D AF
Telephoto 85mm f/1.4 AIS MF>>

Another note....get the fastest AIS lenses you can. That would basically be the 1.4 35m and 85mm AIS and the 1.2 50mm AIS. Do not get AF lenses. The focus gearing is too rough for any critical work, and as Charles will tell you, it's more than diffcult enough to work without a follow focus and accurate distance markings that you would with a cine setup.

Again...AIS lenses only, no AF lenses. The 85mm 1.4 is a beautiful piece of glass, and the 1.2 to 1.4 speeds work fine witht the P&S. Going up and down the ladder, the 24mm is slower but still works well. I also use a 125mm and a really noce 180mm 2.8. THe longer and slower the lens, the more care you need to take with the "spin factor", but that becomes second nature after shooting for a while.

Also...don't even think about using this setup wiithout the hi res B&W viewfinder. You cannot judge focus using the crappy (sorry but it is) color VF that comes stock with the XL1.

So...only manual focus AIS Nikons and only the Fu-1000 B&W VF.

What is the spin factor and why does the P+S rotate, is this for grain??? What happens if you dont turn it on?

If you don't turn it on, you can see the grain from the ground glass inside the adaptor. The spinning is so the grain moves fast enough not so be visible.

The current version (4th generation) Mini35 uses an oscillating ground glass rather than spinning, and it can be used with a deeper f-stop than the earlier versions.

<<The current version (4th generation) Mini35 uses an oscillating ground glass rather than spinning, and it can be used with a deeper f-stop than the earlier versions.>>

How far have you pushed that without problem Charles...of course light and focal length being relative? With the version 3, I do try and get closer to the lens' "sweet spot" and will shoot up to 4.0 in a normal or wide lens, but pretty much stay around 2.0 if I'm shooting anything longer than 50mm...for the most part...nothing is absolute.

I've gotten up to an 11 in testing with the 400 series (we haven't had to shoot at that aperture yet), which is great. A lot depends on the subject being photographed, whether the grain will show up or not (midtone skies usually a giveaway).

With the previous version, I've pushed it to 5.6 at a pinch, on shots with lots of movement.

On the Seinfeld shorts, we had to do a shot with a 300mm plus extender, and for some reason the groundglass was showing up in a big way even wide open. I forgot the details (I guess I'd have to go look at my article again!) but it was a bit baffling.

Thanks Jim...I am off to conduct that search now :)

someone knows something about that nikon lense ? i heard it is switchable from auto to total manual control. or i missunderstood something ?

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php...ductNr=1960NAS

Well guys I just got all my new stuff today and hooked it up. Here are some pictures:

http://www.yvyears.com/crap/mini35.html

I will be doing test shots mostly on Friday, so by Friday night I will have it up on the net for ya'll to see!

Looks very nice. I look forward to seeing your test shots. Heck the setup alone looks so "cool" it makes us all want to go buy it ;)

Hey guys! I am reporting back with a couple of shots from the first 3 days of filming. This is straight out the camera, no processing(bars, color correction, etc.) More to come!

http://www.yvyears.com/crap/shot1.jpg
http://www.yvyears.com/crap/shot2.jpg

Dave, #1 looks very nice IMHO. What were your lens, settings, etc. for that shot?

Thanks! It was the first thing I had ever shot with the system. Off the top of my head, I think that shot was with a 50mm Nikon MF @ f/1.4

Lens Choices
 

I just shot a short film using a set of high speed Zeiss PLs. The pictures are absolutely stunning. Will post links soon.
By the way, we used the Canon XL1S + Mini35 combo.

Here is a new shot from the film. I did a little bit of post processing as well with MB.

http://www.yvyears.com/crap/shot3.jpg

If I remember correctly, this was done on my 35mm Nikon MF @ f/2

Thoughts on buys a zoom lens
 

I have seen cooke cinema zoom lenses for sale on ebay. Currently a 2.8 T3 is available. Would this lens be too slow for the Mini 35? I really love shallow DOF, however I would like to get a zoom lens. Also I need to use my follow focus. Any comments would be appreciated.

Dan, not sure about your description of that lens...is it a T3 or a T2.8?? what focal lengths are incorporated in that lens?

Assuming it's a T2.8, you are losing about 2 stops of "goodness" over fast prime lenses, which will give you that oft-desired shallow focus look. A 2.8 is plenty fast enough for focal lengths over 75mm, where a T1.4 would be really hard to keep a moving subject in focus, but the wider end might not have the impact you want at that stop. Also, depending on which vintage Mini35 you are using as well as which camera, 2.8 is starting to get into the hairy range where the grain of the groundglass might become visible.

Unfortunately, there's no free ride with this setup. Zooms are always slower than primes, but are obviously quicker to work with. There is a certain elegance to working with fixed focal length lenses however.

I am using the 400 series Mini 35 with the DVX100A camera here is the lens I am talking about.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3830336077&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT