I did some rough tests with the Kampro camera. This uses a Sony Exview chip. It is claimed to be 1/3" but the effective image area looks to be just over 1/4" corner to corner.

With this camera, the Tamron C-mount zoom on wide angle 12.5mm, spaced 2.2mm forward of the mount face, will frame the 24mmx18mm 4:3 academy frame within the 4:3 TV frame safe area viewable in the LCD screen of the PD150 I patched the Kampro into. The distance from front of the lens to the test card was 27mm.

The same arrangement for a 16mm F/L prime lens needed 60mm between front of lens and the test card.

The same arrangement with the Cosmicar 25mm lens was not in the game at all.

There is a reference in the other XL1 thread here about the prism path in the camcorder.- It may not be possible to mount a C-Mount lens in an adaptor close enough to the camcorder's focal plane.

Serena:

If you did not use some sort of ground glass element, then you do not acheive shallower dof.

Now, It may appear that you have a very shallow dof (i saw your clips), but how far away from those bushes were you? My guess was pretty far. If the standard xl1 lens was long enough to match that focal length, the dof would be identical. The only way to decrease dof is to eaither decrease the fstop or increase the size of the "film plane" that the front element lens (prime lens etc..) projects the image onto, which in your case is the actual ccd (which hasnt changed). To keep the focal length of any given prime lens, while maintaining the dof, requires a ground glass element.

Dino:
With your 24mm lens, you mentioned that you can adjust how far away the gg is from your primary (relay) lens. Can you measure the smallest and largest amount of the gg image you are able to fill the frame with? Ideally, I want to capture exactly 36x24mm so that when I use a certain focal length prime lens, I KNOW that I'm getting that focal length (and proper dof).

The reason this is so important to me, is that I already know how to achieve a somewhat shallow dof with my current manual 16x. I iris all the way open, I zoom all the way in, and I back up untill I have the framing I want.
It sucks. Especially when I'm in close quarters.

If Im not capturing the gg image at 36x24mm, then Im effectively doing the same thing with a still, prime lens. Not preferrable.


Stephen

dof / distance....
 

stephen-


how far away from those bushes were you?


the fence post is about 2 feet or less away from the front of the camera...(two of the bogen tripod legs are actually touching the fence)... the clips along the length of the fence give the best view of the performance of the lens (again, the tripod legs are touching the fence)... YES, gg would give i slightly different selective focus, but i can afford this and it does seem to work OK without compromising lens quality by adding a bunch of extra lenses.

you said:
The only way to decrease dof is to eaither decrease the fstop or increase the size of the "film plane" that the front element lens (prime lens etc..) projects the image onto, which in your case is the actual ccd (which hasnt changed).

this is true and NOT true.... those taking portraits have long used a lens that has a selective depth of field characterized by manipulating the elements of the lens.. The concept of the Mini35 is a great one... it is the best way to simulate film... BUT since many of these cinema lenses are designed for selective focus with shallow depth of field then we can still benefit from the lenses characteristics even though these will not be exactly the same as the lens if we used gg...(using a gg method would enable you to use focus pulling charts)....

.......ie- i dont have an arriflex camera to test it on but the performance of the lens seem pretty cool to me even if it is not the same as it would be with a mini 35. ,



you said:
To keep the focal length of any given prime lens, while maintaining the dof, requires a ground glass element.


??????
true...

as i said a simple straight thru adapter will not have the same
fl and dof, but if it still shoots cool video that looks cinema like
then who cares???

This is in the static thread too...
 

XL1 Static Adapter
This adapter consists of a canon 1.2 50mm FD mount lens and adapter on a Radioshack 4.5x6.5inch project box. the GG is a Linhof 4x6inch micrograin obtained from B&H. Next step is to make a platform for the whole setup to rest on. Perhaps a mattebox & support rod setup. I used the stock 16x auto lens and the Macro is a 5x single element. when money and time permit I'll replace it with an Achromat, perhaps more powerful although with a little more tweaking I think 5x should be enough to fully eliminate the vinetting.

the clip is about 1mb and is a fairly low bitrate so pardon the compression artifacts. It doesnt like to stream so download before viewing.

www.quicktel.com/users/archamian/candletest.wmv

Stephen, please refer to this thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...5&pagenumber=3 in which I discuss an arri bayonet adapter I designed to use 16mm lenses on my xl1. In it I found that with arri bayonet mounted lenses the distance between lens flange and camera body is 22mm or not quite 7/8th of an inch. If you are setting your lens at 3 inch or so then you would have nearly zero ability to focus with it.

I would recommend that you find a way to mount the lens stabily by itself say on a table with the lens at the proper height for the camera. Set up an object to image and make sure it is a set distance, say 3 feet or 1 meter, from the lens measure this carefully. Slowly move your camera towards the lens until the object comes into focus. That will help you determine the focal lenth for your lens to the CCD plane. Again, do not move the lens , only move the camera.

My adapter webpage is www.quicktel.com/users/archamian/adapter.html

Sarena, you may also find that post interesting as what I did is about the same as XL1 solutions products just for a different type of camera mount. I too noticed better control over depth of field but it is still a little too video-sharp so I am proceeding to finish my own GG based adapter. What I especially liked about my adapter and a 16mm film lens is that I have total manual control and that has made life easier in many shoots, though the auto lens also has its benefits.

--Patrick

Sarenas adapter
 

Sarena-
If you want to test your theory and varify that you are indeed getting shallower DOF simply do this test and post the resulting frame grabs.

One frame grab with your adapter and 35mm lens shooting a shot showing off its DOF characteristics. Record what you used for a f/stop.

-------dont move the camera at all. Not even a little----------

Now shoot without the adapter and just the standard video lens. Zoom to match the same FOV EXACTLY and dont forget to check that your f stop is the same as in the first picture.

Post the resulting two frame grabs.

In fact this test should help you as you finalise the adapter.

Once again even if you come to realise that the DOF hasnt changed you still have a very valuable tool there. Think of it as a low lux adapter. News and wedding videographers will eat it up.
Or market it as a cine lens adapter.

Let us know when you have some pics to show. Good luck.

Hey Pat, do you have any pics of your set up? would like to see it and more details... thanks

Also can you put up your vid in some other format? That film bombs on me every time...

I just uploaded...
 

... a quicktime file, hopefully Adobe Premiere encodes it properly.
http://www.quicktel.com/users/archam...dletest001.mov
and a pic www.quicktel.com/users/archamian/flower.jpg

I'll try to take some pics of my setup asap and will edit this post with the links.

--Patrick

I can't get my relay lens to work:

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=1281&search=1.

Seems like it has to be mounted closer to the CCD than possible (canon xl-1 ccd is protected by a piece of glass making the distance to big)

Well...What to do now??? I don't think that the idea is far from right. I just didn't know how to do the math to prevent buying the wrong one..hmm it is kinda small though.

anders,
for your relay lens, what kind of lens are you using? also, what kind of connector/adapter are you using also to attach the lens to the canon body also?

-dr

It's a Infinite Conjugate Micro Video Imaging Lens - designed for use in micro CCD board cameras.

Focal Length (mm) 2.90
Max. CCD Format 1/3"
Angular FOV >79°
Min. Working Distance 200mm
Minimum FOV 330mm
Mounting Thread M12 x 0.5

I planned to make the mount myself. So I first made som tests to find out the proper distance to the ccd. But I couldn't get it in focus. You can also buy a c-mount adaptor for this type of lens. Can you make anything out of the specs?

anders,
yes, i understand the idea. but just looking at what you propose, would make it more difficult to complete overall.

I'm afraid you'd be much better off making a very inexpensive-but good-Agus35. That is the model with the spinning ground glass. You can make one for about $30 or less... this will get you up and running cheaper and faster than what your thinking of putting together now...

just a thought...
-dino

What adapter and lens would you use for an AGUS35? I'm at the point where I'm thinking that if it's good enough for the Mini35, it's good enough for me to use.

hey, patrick
 

i would definitely like to see pics of your setup when you upload them. i'm curious about how huge the setup is.

is this something that has to be stationary or can you walk around with it?

what is the dof acheived with this unit?


what is the cost of the setup?


do you have to pump in more light for this setup than with the regular lens?

dino
 

dino reyes, how are you coming along with your adapter?

do you have recent pics?


i really like the way patrick wright's setup looks, and the depth of field looks great, but he mentioned trying the gg for a less video look so i assume he's not happy with his set up. i like the fact that it doesn't make the camera look too long.

i'm still trying to weed through the forum and find out who has the adapter that yeilds the best results, if you can give me the name of the person that i need to talk to that would be nice, also fell free to e-mail me at mrpatrick357@hotmail.com for any updates in your project.

to patrick wright
 

hey, patrick can you e-mail some costs of this setup, and explain to me if you feel that a ground glass will make a huge difference in the way your footage looks without it?


with the dof that you are obtaining do you think that you can get the less video look in post to achieve the same look you would get with ground glass? i like the fact that your camera looks like it doesn't need any special mounts or support. it looks like your cam will be stable on a good tripod.

It would be great if any stuff like that got posted to this thread so we can all share in it and perhaps help each other develop this project together.

yeah, the moving around with some of these set-ups is an issue.

I would love to have a simple solution like the one they used on MARLA but that ain't gonna work.

I'm at the point where I think I need to go back to looking at the AGUS35 solution and forget the ALDU35 option for now.

The P&S Mini35 uses this technology, it's relatively compact and it's proven and theoretically easier to rig up and build.

Granted with the XL1 series using more professional lens options it's not as easy as duct taping a box to the front end of your handi-cam but I think it's a viable option.

XL1s?
 

Hi, everyone. I'm new to the boards and trying to play catch up and see what everyone has been working on for some time now. I would love to be able to build a 35mm adapter for my XL1s, but it seems like it's not an easy task. I was just curious if anyone has tried to make one with the revolving GG ( i guess those are the Agus35's correct?) like Kevin Burnfield has just mentioned. I'm very interested in trying some of these ideas out and welcome any advice or comments in advance. Thanks for everything I've learned so far and pardon me if I ask any stupid questions. I've been trying to read up as much as I can, so I don't ask the same things that have been asked 50 times before.

I'm trying to find some specs on a Baseplate and Rails for my XL1S since the ones that are sold are frickin' too expensive but haven't found anyone that can give me the measurements and details. I figure I could work one up once I get them and then consider my options for lenses, adapters and such.

I don't have a rail system or baseplate for my XL1s either so I can't help you out with demensions. I am interested in helping out with this idea though. Do you think it's possible to devise an inexpensive way to use an Agus35 style system without having to mount it on the end of the cameras existing lens or would it have to be mounted to the end of the cameras XL lens? Would it also be possible to make something similar to the Aldu35 GL1 from this site....

http://ideaspora.net/aldu35/

I know the owner of that site posts here, but i'm not sure what his name is. It should be possible to do something like that with just 72mm threads instead right? I know it defeats the purpose of having interchangeable lens, but it's alot more cost effective. Has anyone had any luck with the XL1's doing something like that? It seems like every plan that involves using different lens really starts to add up. I like the adapter that Dino made, but the parts start to add up fast. Too bad no one could come up with something for the relay (i think that's the right name) lens for the camera to attach it to these 35mm adapters that didn't cost a fortune.

The P&S Mini-35 _IS_ an Agus35 type device. A spinning ground glass that gets the image from the 35mm lens and a macro lens on the other side to read that image off that spinning GG.

Yeah, I think it's possible to do this but honestly, I just don't have the mechanical skillsets to figure it all out.

Yeah, Jim's site is fantastic. Gives some great advice and shots on building an adapter.

There are a lot of people here who have done amazing things and made real progress but the XL1S doesn't seem to have a simple (i.e.: relatively easy and not expensive) solution.

Relay Lens
 

Okay so the big problem we have here is basically we need to find something to use as a relay lens, that doesn't cost a fortune. I like Dino's design, but there has to be a way to find a lens to use as a relay without having to use a 35mm lens and adapter. I noticed on the relay lens thread that there was talk of using 16mm or c mount lens like the ones from edmunds, has anyone found one that works? Using a c mount attached to a XL body cap might work, but I just wish we could come up with some type of lens that we could attach to the camera with the XL mount then to the 35mm adapter. It sure would cut the length down on the camera expecially if you then used the agus35 set up.

I'd like to start working on this some very soon, so any adive anyone has would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Relay Lens
 

Okay, I decided to try and build a agus35 style adapter for my xl1s. I was thinking of trying to adapt relay lens set up like Dino used. I'm looking for a 24mm, f2.8 (as he suggested) lens. I'll prob. go for a Canon EOS lens, since I already have a Rebel Ti and hope to get a digital rebel sometime in the future. I know the lens will set me back more than a Nikon or something like that, but I figure then I can get more uses out of it then just using it for the adapter. My question is with that set up what type/magnification macro lens will i need between the relay lens and the GG? I know some of the ones I saw using GL1s and such were using like a +7. With the XL1 and a 35mm still lens will I still need something close for magnification?

I'm still experimenting with the relaylens. I can't believe that it should be so complicated. All you need is the right piece of glass and a mount. I'm having trouble making one because I get all my knowledge of lenses from experimenting. I basicly don't know anything about lenses. I took an old photocamera lens apart an held one of the several pieces of glass in front of the camera CCD and it shoved a nice picture (though not wide enough). So it should be possible with a single piece of glass...or??? I really need help from somebody who know lenses!

Can anybody tell my which glass I should get a hold of???

Thanks!

Anders, I am also trying to figure out a relay lens for my camera. So far it seems like the easiest way it's been done was with a 35mm still lens and an adapter, but there has to be a better way. If anyone has any ideas of what type of glass we might need to accomplish this please give us some advice. I know I sure could use some. Is there a better/cheaper way to do this other than using an adapter and 35mm still lens?

To : Christoph Hopf

I found this on the net:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/product/46335/SC2595X/REG/3662

Is that what you are referring to?

Shouldn't we just keep the xl-1 relaylens discussion in this thread instead of having to keep up with two identical threads?

sorry folks,

somehow i didn`t noticed that there is a allready a existing thread about this subject.
i am quite sure that p&s technik use this schneider xenonlense for the relay lense.

now i am thinking about to order only the relay lense from p&s Technik. maybe it`s possible??

That would really be awesome! I think the list price is about 1500 euro or something for the whole connection kit. I wonder would the lens alone would cost?

I don't think that you should mention what you want to use it for! The only way they would sell the lens alone would be if you already had bought the adaptor but you had broken the lens!??

Give it a try (tell them you have broken 2 ;-)

my aunt lives in munich, and works for arri. maybe she know one of the p&s guys. i will call her. next week i should know if i can buy the relay lense alone

That sounds really nice! I have been considering buying one from the start but haven't because of the price. So if it's possible for you to buy it seperately I really want to buy one as well.

you needn't call her it is possible.

Part No. 18770 Mini35Digital connecting kit for Canon XL1 / XL1s, incl. Intermediate lens, plate for fixing the video camera, adapter for Canon battery , ergonomic holder for color finder.
Price: 1530,00 EUR

source: www.pstechnik.de

canon xl adapter page
 

maybe this will help some people who are making their own lenses

http://www.dinoreyes.com/images/lensadapter.html

cheers!

To Christoph Hopf: Have you talked to your aunt?

To Dietmar Zonewicz: I'm interested in buying the lens and only the lens(not the rods etc.). I think 1500 is pretty expensive!

Does anybody know if that xenon lens:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/product/46335/SC2595X/REG/3662

would work with the xl-1 and homebuilt adaptor??????

Thanks

I phoned PStecnik and it seems that the relay lens alone will cost 1000 euro. Pretty much!

If I bought that lens - could I just mount a GG and a lens - and then start shooting? or would I still need to get an achromatic adaptor and stuff???


Thanks!

I phoned PStecnik and it seems that the relay lens alone will cost 1000 euro. Pretty much!

If I bought that lens - could I just mount a GG and a lens - and then start shooting? or would I still need to get an achromatic adaptor and stuff???

You're going to need an achromatic adaptor, or some other method of getting the relay lens to focus onto the GG without vignetting the image.

Its a shame that little progress has been shown on building an adapter for an xl1. I have tinkered around since june of this year, with little success. My lack of success is mostly because of not knowing where to start, as following what others have done with other cameras isnt exactly applicable.

I have made some progress tho.
Started out with a shoebox, discovered that I could get an image on my makeshift gg.
Moved up to pvc pipe as my second prototype. Works well for fidgetting around. I have a 50mm as my primary lens, Im using holywood frost sandwhiched between 2 uv filters as my makeshift gg. What I'm trying to figure out at this point is:
1. What focal length lense I need as my relay lense (im limited since I dont own anything wider than a 50mm)
2. What is the best method to produce a quality gg (can I buy one? or do I have to make one, and if so, how?)
3. what elements do I need between the relay lens and gg? There is so much conflicting info out there I dont know what to believe. Also, I dont know where to get these things.
3. What is the best permanent housing for my setup?

On another note, if I ended up wanting to make a setup that had an oscilating gg, what materials do I need etc.

My suggestion to anyone trying to discover what they need to make things work is this:
1. drill a hole in a 2x4 you can mount your camera to to keep it stationary
2. create "stands" for your relay lens and your gg and primary lens housing that you can easily slide back and forth and mount your relay to the 2x4 whenever you find your correct flange depth (of course i have found that it will change based on how far away your gg is, so try to make it adjustable).

youll notice very quickly that trying to hold your relay lense with one hand, and your primary lens housing in another, keeping them in line with each other AND your ccd is difficult and ultimately FRUSTRATING.
Finding flange depth in my experience isnt an exact science. What I've found easiest is to focus on infinity and place your lense wherever you get sharp focus on distant objects, trying to place the lense at what the measurements you got online say ends up not working the way you would hope it would.

My next step is to obtain a quality GG, as Im pretty sure I can get the gg image with a 20mm lens (which i may be able to borrow from a friend to test)

Dino Reyes seemed to have a functioning adapter, but he seems to have disappeared.

Lets get this figured out so that we can all have working 35mm adapters and continue to improve them with each others input.

My setup produces a pretty poor image (my gg is crap), but perhaps next weekend I can capture something and try to get it uploaded somewhere to view. (if anyone knows how to get files hosted on dvinfo.net, let me know)

Stephen

I just finished a gig where they rented a Mini-35 for 5 days to use with my XL1S and I have to say the combo between it and the 35mm lenses has made me want one more then ever!! ---- but the XL1S progress on an alternate to the P&S one seems to be at a stand-still.

I don't mind the idea of a spinning or vibrating ground glass, don't mind if it has to have a relay lens---- but I can't help but think that if all of us XL1 (and 2) users got together on this we could figure out some group purchase or at least spur each other into moving forward on this (or at least those of us with little mechanical skills could find someway of supporting the cause) and get this moving ahead.

The footage out of an XL1S using 35mm lenses and a mini-35-like device is INCREDIBLE. My DP sat there watching dailies saying over and over again "man, I thought we could get it to look like film before--- you can't tell this isn't film...."

What can we do? How can we help each other? I know there are some people that have had machinists make adapters for other lenses to fit an XL camera, if we bought a bunch together can we get a great (cheap) price?

Keith Kline, I've been reading all of these XL1 threads too, trying to understand what's to be done - and I agree it's kinda hit a dead end, hard. As I'm not mechanically skilled most of my imaginings have to do with "inventive" ways of using the parts that I have available. Not even owning a camera makes my ideas even more dubious. I don't have the stuff infront of me to tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, such as when I thought of using the 3X canon lens as the relay lens.

The 3X lens has the minimum focus (something like .5 cm at widest zoom) and the fov (maybe even too wide) to capture an image projected on a ground glass....maybe not. I don't know, but I haven't heard of anyone who has tried making an Agus35 for the 3X lens/XL1.

If you're willing to pay for it, I don't think it would be that hard to machine an XL-1 mount adaptor with a macro (or achromatic diopter, or whatever you want to use) in it.

Have a another mount machined on the other end and then attach some sort of Agus35 device at the right distance from the macro.

Wouldn't that work? The X factor is the correct distance of the macro from the sensor, and the ground glass from the macro.