Update:

The design was getting pretty big and bulky, but because of some corrospondance with kodak I've found that I can get 30P that is compatible with SMPTE 274 without having to use asyncronous FIFO's. I'm crunching the numbers now to see if i can do that same for 24p because that is all that really matters to me right now, and all a single hard drive could handle in 10bit. (keep in mind only one channel, CbCr channel is empty)

Fpga will still be used for timing and appending the dual outputs together and controlling the commands to the serializer, but I feel that i'm really close to having a HD-SDI bayer camera design finished. Now i just need to get the couple of thousand dollars for all the parts to start testing.

Since i'm only a student I'm going to get some of the electronics guys in my university to look over my final designs in a week or two. Make sure i didn't miss anything.

I was re-reading this post of yours Obin and I was thinking, isn't the Drake using this very same sensor? It doesn't look like a 1 CCD spy camera to me.

I would guess it's early to make any decisions on the Drake as they have not shot any outdoor sunlit stuff yet...but I would bet the color is not that good as you would have to pump the color in post so hard for a ibis chip..I have seen the images from Ibis...but then again maybe they have found a way....don't think anyone knows yet...

one more thing..maybe FillFactory has a NEW IBIS chip that is better...

Keith you are telling us your FPGA design is done?!?! do you have RAW record-to-disk a viewfinder and camera control?

christ that would be GREAT news..I am not sure how you could have done it that fast..are you working with 12bit 1080x1920 images at 24fps?

I think the HD-SDI idea is REALLY great! good work Kieth, keeping a signal on a HD-SDI path works well because you can hook that to many professional decks, cards, etc...and I see how a bayer image could go over sdi as it's really just LUMA!!!!! amazing! that is great! and like you say we can just de-bayer it in post and or compress it!


so what is left to get camera control and images out for a viewfinder or monitor?

well where i work, the hardware guys would do it in 15 days with compression on a fpga ... they just have to add a ATA interface or something to some design they already have. Too bad their products don't have much in common with cinema.

I don't have the major parts yet, and by that i mean the sensor. I need about 1500 usd to get a quality sensor and an eng grade sensor, i'm still gathering money for that,i hate being a student.

I had this elaborate chain of programs started on. The flow chart was huge, and involved all sorts of FIFO's and buffers and stuff. But that all got scraped because I found out i could read fake lines, so even though the sensor only has 1092 real lines, i can read 1125 and then config line timings. I reduced the design to just 2 programs. A timing program and a line append program.

But now I have the timing program pretty much done. Doing simulation on it is all that is left and setting a method to enable switching its modes, which are 24p, 25p, 30p that still all complies with smpte 274 right of the chip. I have a poor program right now that interleaves both dual output channels together instead of the complete line append, but that is only for testing. Would result in a really stupid picture and lots of post processing to get it normal.

So one program is practically done, just making sure that everything works perfectly and i can switch modes. It also incorporates timing pulses for connecting to an rgb monitor, which means that you can monitor the bayer in b/w. Not a great solution but it should work. Just have to finish a line buffer program that i started because the sensor is dual output.

I stress, this is only the head design and isn't built - yet, you need a computer with hd-sdi to capture so far or a dvcpro or hd-cam deck. The hard drive deck design is still in its infancy because I need to get NDA's sent out to the companies I want to get IP cores off of for ata and sata. But from some of the companies it sounds that this can be pretty easy to do what i want and record directly to LBA's.

HD-sdi specs out 10bit per channel, but it is possible to expand this, just need to use the 2nd channel which i have left empty for now. Could go as high as 20bit then and you would have a lot of data.

Sure a company could do this in 2 weeks, but i'm a student with only a little fpga background and very little money. Also i took down the website recently, I was having problems with it and i really hated the free server. Shouldn't complain, it was free.

I had the design looked over by some people in know in the faculty and they are fairly confident that it will work as soon as i get the sensor as long as my support electronics are tested. which right now are kind of a jumble and mess of wires and stuff.

So to summary:
No sensor means no pictures, just fpga programs and simulations and electronic designs and testing.
The deck is waiting for an ip core and documentation.

Sorry if i sounded offensive, it was just a quote for Obin to say that with the right guys, you could do it really quickly. I'm a student too, and perfectly understand the problems you're facing, and i'm still impressed (and pleased) by the quick progress you're making.

For the sensors price, well that's why i proposed this kodak cmos sensor, 18$ is much more affordable than 1500 for a student ;)

Keith can you call me or I call you?

910.262.3434

Steve I wasn't really retaliating i was more joking around. I knew what you meant and i knew you didn't mean any offense to me at all.

The problem for me is that it i can control the timmings for a ccd (as long as i got some documentation on the clock signals) but with a cmos it is harder to do that and doing things like increasing vertical clock time and waiting times for a cmos is much harder because you need to program registers and stuff like that and will make it much to hard to get the smpte 274 compliance without having to use asyncronous fifos, which I'm so happy that i can avoid.

I'd purchase an eng sample right now, but in order to do that i need to purchase an evaluation kit or at least one production sensor. I haven't asked if they would sell just one eng because i'm a student, but maybe i should asked, or see if i can get a few eng samples instead of a production one.

Obin:
I can't call you today because i'm on the road later today and I won't be home until 10 pm my time which is gmt -3.5. Is that to late to call you? I'll try then, if not i'll do it tomorrow if you don't see this in time.

no problem call when you can

I feel like I've been watching a miniseries only to find that it's been canceled just as our heroes are starting to get the upper hand!

What happened with your development platform, Kieth?

Dan

Project direction changed and were going good for a while off the boards - then I had an accident recently which has put a complete stop to anything i've been working on but I'm working on it again. Not a development platform anymore, but can't give away much on what it is.

I'll just say this: We don't need no stinkin' computers! and thats a fact.

I can tell the sound of a guy getting serious.

You go!

Good luck.

Dan

Just keep an eye out and hopefully we'll surprise some people.

and no stinkin tiny flat lifeless 8bit 1/3rd inch ccd chips...and that's a fact

but the biggest "fact" of all: we don't need no STINKIN HDV CRAP!!!


LOL

I really wish I remembered what movie the whole "we don't need no stinkin' (insert stuff here)" pharse came from

blazing saddles

I agree with that, it was only a means to a quick end, before we went to FPGA hardware (now done thanks to people like Juan and Andrey). Unfortunately it didn't happen, except in various bunches like Cinelerra.

Please keep us informed Keith, we are still waiting for cheap cameras.

"We don't need no stinkin badges" is from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre.

When something more is ready their will be an announcement. Right now its a whole bunch of smaller projects that work that need to be put together and fine tuned and then assembled into a package that can actually be used.

Can I ask something else. It is clear that the Sony HC1/A1 is a special little camera, apart from the HDV and level of manual controls. I was wondering if you would be interested in offering basic compression and component capture packages separately, over multi link Gige/SATA/Firewire800 interface to disk, or single interface with compression? In the market there is very few options for recording uncompressed from component, and compression hardware that can be readily used. They tend to be very expensive compared to what they should be. Is it possible to offer it for less than $500 with capture control?

Just something to think about?

Thanks

I'm not really into it mainly because it has been noticed that the rolling shutter artifact is apart when recording video from this camera in all modes. Any high motion horizontally skews just like back in the day with the orginal Cmos cameras people were experimenting with

EDIT: Someone else might be though and fixed a few typos

Full Frame?
 

Not to open a whole-nother can of worms, but have any of the DIYHD guys considered stepping up to a full frame sensor and output 1920X1080 via subsampling. You could really get cinematic images with 35mm lenses.

Full Frame requires a mechcanical shutter but with that aside these sensors have a maximum readout speed. Problem is you still have to cycle through all pixels and even if you can cycle them a little faster you still are likely below what you need.

Kodak just released a 39MP sensor and with their filters and stuff it should be great. Problem is it runs at 24 MHz so even with dual output and skipping lines (because you can't skip pixels) your not going to be able to do much because you can just barly read out 2mp @24 fps but you have no time to capture light.

Some are faster but have more output lines. I've though about it but for know interline or global shutter cmos is better for simplicity sake. But if anything gets off the ground then something like FF is sure to follow

I've been following the debate for a while. The rolling shutter apparently sis fast enough as to not really be a problem with normal footage (though I prefer none myself). It apparently is not a too uncommon problem on PRO CCD cameras of the past as well. But the HC1 is only an example, Z1's, JVC 100, Panasonic 200 etc also have the component (I don't know about new hard disk JVC camcorder, and the Canon XLHD).

For some reason I was thinking something like a real-stream setup (even though you specifically said component). A component capture would be useful. Compression is something that is way more complicated than you are lead to believe since you can't just include a lib and make a function. Talking much more complicated at the level I'm working on and external chips require almost as much screwing around. I'm just not focusing on a component recorder. I'm focusing on something else just right now, but when thats done who knows.

I know what you are talking about. I just thought you were already working with somebody on that, and that a component version might be possible. What ever it is, keep it going.

Thanks Keith

I was working on something like that but not right now. Focusing on something else but if what I'm working on succeeds then I'll definetly be going after something like that next.

Hmm... I would like to do something myself. I have some very good ideas, but my health doesn't permit me to do much.

something may be to read
 

go here please
http://www.framos.co.uk/pdf_sheets/I...le_english.pdf

Jenoptik is the famous reserach group,
now the "iron curtain" gone
back on the show

Looks good Ronald, what costings (and can this be plugged into any firewire port and be used by standard capture/edit software)? I have found it very hard to find a cheap mega-pixel firewire unit mostly a lot above $1000.

I've left you a message on the technical thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...241#post384241

Thanks

Wayne.

The ccd can't read out fast enough for, it can only be clocked at max of 18mhz (5mp variant), which is essentially 18 megapixels a second at any bit depth, which even at 720p you can't hit 24fps, almost 20 but thats it without overclocking the ccd which will likely burn it out very quickly.

Still that is not such a problem for me. 1280*545 (approx 2.35:1) = 16.7324, give those 16:9 digital TV purists their own black bars. Boy I must be desperate for a good RAW camera.

But, Keith, I am wondering, would the new Elpel 323 camera be good as a camera development platform? I understand it is re-programmable (even FPGA). If it is as cheap as the last camera you could get the camera and sensor, with FPGA compression engine, for around $700. That firmly beats all the other options in everything but capture software (and I don't know what will edit the compression format). A bit of FPGA'ing/reprogramming could make it record directly to a Ethernet external Hard drive case. Not to mention the possibilities of tapping the circuit for external display and control buttons.

Anyway, this camera of Ronald's, do you know the costing, and if it can be used with standard capture/edit software through firewire?

I think everyone is desperate for a RAW camera. Their are just so many advantages. Its just like shooting RAW Digital stills. You have all the control of the image without having to pay a colourist. Thats Why I'm still working on stuff between school and my horrible luck. Even though I don't discuss it.

In theory you can reprogram the fpga for the elphel 323 but I'm pretty sure this is a combination job. The FPGA just feeds the processor and the processor handles all the issues of ethernet so its the firmware for the processor you would likely be needing to deal with not the fpga. The FPGA handles the compresseion algorithim though so if you wanted to change that then your back to fpga-land.

If the camera is firewire than likely DCAM / IIDC spec so should be lots of capture software for it, more for mac based stuff from what i've seen.

He He He.., new reports are cheaper Intel IBook in January, and wide-screen version ;) This is great news, we will see then.

By the way, how far are you off of announcing something, and do you have any sensor news that you have heard. I know cheap 720p Altasens, and sensor chips with dsp, compression and USB on board (phone market) are floating around.

This is totally unofficial so I'll keep it as vague as possible (Yes, I am a jerk)

The sensor is chosen and we're beginning intergration of it in a few weeks. Chosen with size, colour representation and shutter operation as the most important factors.

To clarify earlier we have developed embedded hardware that allows hard drive recording without a computer. This has been the focus until it became reliable a few weeks ago.

Their will not be compression in anything I design for a whlie, so its more hard drives for more data.

Any computer connection is to get the data from the drives after it is shot - no computer for capture what so ever.

Nice and vague if I do say so myself

Nah, I respect that. Sounds good, as long as there is buttons interface to control things and a link to a computer to send commands, should be fine.

I agree about the computer, I just had Windows XP working with around 1.9 MB of HD space free. No, I'm not a miracle system installer or anything, a couple of viruses turned up and I lost all my HD space. Now I am getting around to re-installing a 3rd part anti-virus and anti-hack tool, 56MB. I could make a Super Computer operating System with an feature set similar to Windows XP, and all the Office apps, in space like that, and completely virus/hack proof. Computers, gives me the willies now days. A CP/M guy said, we won't need more than 64K, Bill Gates, 640K is it, good grief what happened to them (the computer industry), 640MB is not enough to do what a 64K programmer could do in 10MB, and 3GB is hardly enough to do what a 6K programmer could do in 10MB. Good grief, they design like they are on a spaghetti farm, throwing cooked spaghetti against the wall to make electrical wiring circuits.

Do you know, at an stage the first IBM PC was meant to be a Z-80 CP/M machine, and that after a year or two they were going to give us a Unix machine as the standard PC with Motorola processor, but the move to Unix was stopped. Boy did we loose out.