mini 35 adapter for canon xl1
 

Hello has anybody some shareable experiences with the 35 mini on a canon xl1?. I will be testing one shortly and would like to know what i should be aware of and or if it really was an improvement compared to the canon without.. Also what kind of lenses did you use? Is it worth the money? What brings out the best?
thanks
D.

Re: mini 35 adapter for canon xl1
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Slingerland : Hello has anybody some shareable experiences with the 35 mini on a canon xl1?. I will be testing one shortly and would like to know what i should be aware of and or if it really was an improvement compared to the canon without.. Also what kind of lenses did you use? Is it worth the money? What brings out the best?
thanks
D. -->>>

If you do a search on here for the Mini 35 adapter (Technik), you will find several discussions about it. Listed below is a link that will give you several threads to look at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/search.ph...der=descending

As for the lens that are used, it depends on what is in you budget. Zeiss lens are at the top of the pecking order. You can also get a Nikon mount for the adapter.

Let us know how your testing turns out.

Since we are in the same country I am wondering if you are buying
one or renting. If renting, where did you find one? I'd love to try
out one myself sometime!

Thanks!

Rob you can rent one at holland equipment in Amsterdam.. everybody thanks i will look at the links... and as soon as results come up will give you info.

Thanks very much for that information! Do you know if they have
a website? Thanks again!

i think you can find them at www.camerarentles.com (google =holland equipment will also bring out there adress)

The website adress is www.hollandequipment.nl, it's around 150 Euro/day for the rent of the Mini35 if I remember correctly, and you'll have to rent lenses. I think a zeiss 10-100 is around 80 euro/day.

Bar3nd

As far as i can remember they only rent out the Mini35 adapter at holland equipment. URL : http:\\www.hollandequipment.nl .
Just give them a call, I'm pretty sure you could go over and try it out. If your going there give me a ring or something because I'd like to check it out too ;)

Information about the Mini35 Digital adapter can be found at http://www.mini35.de, and http://www.zgc.com.

Anyone out of the USA can contact info@pstechnik.de to find out the closest rental facility.

Cheers,

Experiences with the Mini35 Digital adapter - yes!
We -- ZGC -- are the North American distributor for the Mini35.

My favorite story to date is from this past November. Jeff Giberti of Vermont used the adapter with the Canon XL1 to shoot TV spots for one of 3 candidates running for governor. Post production saw the footage and couldn't figure out how he captured such great stuff without using a film camera. He told them. Later on, PBS aired a show that included TV spots of all 3 candidates. Shown together, it was blantantly obvious which spots looked the best and his candidate initially got flack for spending public money for expensive film stock to look better than his competition! Of course, when it was explained, his campaign came across as very smart and I'm sure Jim came out looking like a hero.

We do have a test footage CD available for the asking. Just contact me or Chris Brnic (chris@zgc.com) or Mizell Wilson (mizell@zgc.com) of ZGC to get one sent to you.

Bryan,

Actually both URL's point to the same company. Heh.

I'm thinking about renting one somewhere around march
next year or something. I'll let you know!

Whoops, didn't see Barend's his post. I responded to SlingerLand who gave the link to www.camerarentals.com
Only human :-)

thanks everybody , any suggestions on lenses i should rent, focal lenght, with the adapter to get a good impression compared to standard lens canon etc.. what make cooke ,Zeis, nikon? Does anybody know where i can get some free charts to do some testing.. on internet or in holland? I have only a back focus chart ...

Zeiss Superspeeds should do you fine. Arguably the best PL mount primes currently available are the Cooke S4's, but you will pay a premium to rent them and considering that they are being degraded through the optics of the Mini 35, it probably isn't worth it. if you want to speed up your shooting, the Arri Variable Primes give a short range of zoom capability, and a set of 3 will cover most desirable focal lengths. A PL mount zoom that would begin to be comparable to the zoom range of a standard video lens (10:1 or 11:1) would be so heavy and bulky that the XL1 would look like an afterthought hanging off the end of it!

Putora 7A9 test chart
 

To Slingerlan:

ZGC has a test chart for $50 that is more accurate than any other on the market. It's the Putora 7A9 chart (fondly known as the "Magic Chart" because of the disappearing concentric circles). Sorry, it's not free but it will serve you well! Compact to carry with you in the field as well.

oke everybody i tested the mini 35 adapter this weekend with a range of filmlenses from 16 to 130 mm. I have the canon xl1 and i noticed that i was in short of a lot of light....I think with the xl1s you have at least one stop more light possible, i had to shoot most of the time with 12 db to get an acceptable picture... I dont know how you can shoot inside without at least a couple of 10 kilowat lamps !! by far lack of light was my biggest problem. Next time however i am going to use superspeed lenses , they will be more light sensitive i think.


It never really looked sharp...and i think using the mini will require upping the countour in post.. the "wide angle" lenses did not look good, very very soft and "wolly" I have been told that this in itself is the dv format, not being able to take in so much information, it could not have been the lens i used!
By the way if your planning to use a sony pd 150.... forget it! you can't take the lens off so you can imagine the quality of the image being as good as the sony lens.. Handheld poses the problem of balance and probably would require an aftermarket application.
The good news :
The depth of focus of the 35 lenses (Zeis u prime lenses) is incredible and looks fantastic!! it really gives you that filmlook and i think for us videographers the best choice should be the 35 mm pro adapter, it will be compatible with 2/3 inch cameras... sony 700 or more should be great with this adapter... However you will need a assistent because the depth of focus is so thin...you are easily out of focus, a collegae of mine did work it alone, but he worked under very confined conditions.
There is also not to much noise coming from the spinning glas much less then i had read about...

greetings

I think the feeling behind that adapter is that if you have the budget to work with it, you also have the budget for full-blown lighting. Thanks for the report,

thanks Chris
ofcourse you need to light your scene, otherwise why use the film lens ? the xl1 is really not very light sensitive and by using film lenses you do have a problem....putting up so much extra light would only make working circumstances unbearable for actors and crew. The lighting would also become very low in contrast. The answer has got to be a more light sensitive camera for this adapter: the xl1s might just do that job.

Response to Slingerland
 

After I saw your posting regarding the Mini35, lighting and softness, I happened to read the following:

Allen Daviau, cinematographer, was quoted in the most recent issue of Film and Video magazine: "I conducted a lighting workshop for students at a local film school . . . When a student asked why I needed to light with a digital camera, I explained I was using light to describe a model's face. I also demonstrated how the color and angle of light defines the characters and their relationships. . . Will digital cameras make cinematography so simple that anyone can do it? Will digital cmeas replace film and free directors from the tyranny of lighting? I believe the answer to all of those questions is no. . . Film and digital images are fundamentally different types of media. The new tools will give us more options for expressing and interpreting the visual language of stories, but the role of the cinematographer will remain the same."

One factor to take into consideration when lighting is the speed of the film lenses you will use on your system. If you use a Cooke T2 lens, which is very fast, you have to light accordingly, etc.

Also, you mentioned that the look you got was fuzzy or soft. That's because the ground glass in the Mini35 gives you a film look which is more velvety than starkly sharp video images.

You now have depth of field and the cinematic look with the Mini35. The new P+S Technik PRO35Digital Image Converter for 2/3 inch HD and standard definition video cameras works the same way as the Mini35 does with DV cameras: the subject needs to be lit equivalent to the production value your seeking now that you're using a film lens for a cinematic look.

Well put Barbara. I would go one step further and point out that the XL1 is very capable of a cinematic look with or without the Mini 35 if one commits to taking this approach to lighting (of course, the added depth-of-field characteristic of the Mini 35 will further the cause).

Digital cameras are not currently "faster" than available filmstocks, i.e. they require at least as much light to capture the image as a film camera. I usually rate the XL1 at 250 ASA, whereas Kodak makes several excellent 500 ASA filmstocks, netting an additional full stop of exposure. If one is attempting to achieve cinematic results with a DV camera, the only reason not to use a similar lighting package as one would when shooting film would be budgetary.

I was approached to shoot a DV movie a few years ago. Coming from a primarily film background but also having shot some narrative work on Digi Beta, once I discovered that the director wanted to achieve a feature film look as opposed to a Dogma style, I convinced him that we needed a significant lighting package. Even the gaffer was a bit baffled that we were pulling out 4K HMI's with a" little video camera" but the results were well worth it (and can be seen here). Now if the Mini 35 had been around then...!

I know others have said this and it's the Number One thing you need to have any kind of "Film Look" and that is basic Filmcraft and the primary tool of filmcraft is lighting.

You can have a million dollar DV camera and still turn in a piece of crap... take Mr. Lucas' last two films as great examples in reference to the 'script phase' and the 'taking the time to help your actors give a good performance' parts of Filmcraft and the lack thereof.

I read everything there was to read about getting the infamous "film look" from DV till I read someone say something like "you can do all the tricks and all that but if you don't light it and shoot it like a film nothing will matter." and it hit home.

That said... I'd love to get my hands on the Mini35 and give it a try. It would make the above easier.

FIRST BORN
 

Charles,


Watched FIRST BORN. Can you give some details on how big a production this was, what sort of stuff you did on it and all the gory details?

What kind of budget was there? What camera did you use?

thanks in advance.

Kevin,

I'll start with the easy stuff--it was an XL1 with the 14x manual lens, in frame mode.

Then it gets a bit fuzzier (we shot it 2 years ago); the budget was around $25K and it was a 5 day shoot.

The G/E package was a large van package, with grip up to a 12x12 set and lighting up to 5K tungsten and HMI up to 2500 par (I confused this with another job when I mentioned 4K's earlier). It was just big enough to handle the day exteriors, but only just (the scene that takes place around the car when the wife is leaving was particularly tough with that size package). Contrast control is always the challenge with video in general and it took plenty of nets on the windows and all our firepower to balance windows with interiors. For the Steadicam shot that followed the couple through the door of the house with the newborn baby, we tented the area outside the door only allowing a bit of daylight in to balance with the interior level.

I'd be happy to answer any other questions--but we may be getting off-topic here...?

Thanks... I started a new thread specifically for First Born and quoted over your messages from here so people can catch up easily.

back to the topic
 

I know I can rent this set up here in the NYC area and my partner and I have talked about it so later this year when we have the budget meeting for the project set to go then we're going to try and squeeze it in so we can play with it.

My Short Film Shot With the Mini 35
 

I recently shot my short film THE CHINESE SHOES in Paris, France using an XL1, the Mini 35 and Cooke S4 lenses.

The finished film will be ready to be released at the end of February, but the trailer and stills are available for all those interested. Go here: http://thechineseshoes.com

perceived "softness" and the mini35
 

In response to slingerland's post about the images never looking "sharp" along with Barb's post concerning the velvety look of film everyone should check out the April 2002 issue of American Cinematographer where a test by Jon Fauer is detailed (pg. 119).

To sum up the results, the XL1s by itself (along with other MiniDV cameras of this size) can only resolve into the 6th degree of the Putora 7A9 sharpness indicator chart.

When the lens is removed from the XL1s and the Mini35 is attached directly to the camera the XL1s can resolve into the 8th degree of sharpness.

So, while the Mini35, especially with the ground glass spinning, has a perceived softness to the image you are acutally getting, at least with the XL1s, a significantly higher resolution image then standard MiniDV.

So while you will get an excellent image with the PD-150 version of the Mini35, if your starting from scratch the ability to remove it's video lens from the XL1s and receive the higher resolution makes it the obvious front runner of choice for use with the Mini35 and as Jon Fauer commented "it just goes to show that the better the lens, the better the image."


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