In a film school, from the very first project, you can tell the ones with potential to succeed and the ones who would be better off taking bookkeeping or something even less imaginative.

If you have something to say, and don't know how to place the camera, or if you should use a close up or a long shot, it does not matter. Just shoot it.

Don't follow any set rules, be creative and make movies, while learning whatever they teach you in school. Learn from your own mistakes first.

Then go see movies that you get hooked on; see them over and over again, until you get no longer absorbed in the picture but when you can see and understand the technique. Watch these movies in a theater, on a big screen, and learn how far you should sit from the screen, for different type of movies, for the best effect.

If you can't afford to go to the movies again and again, just stay in the theater and watch the movie over and over again. No one will call cops on you or will try to throw you out. Just sneak into another theater between the shows. If they say something, tell them you're a film student and you're learning.

Listen to the sound and understand its relationship to the picture. Learn how proper loudness and tonal balance is. Tell the personnel if the bass should be turned up, the treble down, or the volume is wrong. They'll fix it.

Do not follow all the rules on making movies! Break the rules! One day you may become a great filmmaker. No one became great by following the rules. By following the rules you become average. There are plenty of average people in Hollywood, and most can't even get a decent paying job in the industry.

If you want to to be average, you'd be better off studying bookkeeping. That takes us to point #1.

If you became great, everything else comes with it -- from pretty women to being invited to the best parties anywhere.

If you become a bookkeeper you'll at least be able to provide for your below average looking wife and your kids.

If you are an unemployed average filmmaker, you will not even be able to hold to a wife, because when that bookkeeper gets divorced, your wife will run away with him.

Lesson: You need to love movies with passion and you need to make plenty of movies, and mistakes, to become great. And if it does not work out, you don't need to be a director; there are plenty of other opportunities in Hollywood.

The new JVC HD camcorder may be the best tool for you to go about it. It will project to a big screen. The color may not be very good, and the controls as primitive, for film production, as wooden cameras from silent film era, but you'll be able to shoot a lot and make a lot of mistakes and learn from your mistakes.

And good 2-channel stereo is all you need. Don't bother with any multichannel system. That is the least important thing.

Viewing more movies in a theatre than you've paid for is a
criminal act. I've done it and I can imagine others have/do.
But I would not support this attitude. I also don't think they
will agree to it if you say your are budding movie maker.
Everybody can say that.

One way of seeing movies for little or no money is to volunteer for your local film festival. Lots of people here do it. This has the benefits of not only getting to see films free, but the sort of films at a festival will be some not normally appearing in multiplexes, plus you get to meet other people who are film enthusiasts.

My advice to students in any field is to first learn all the rules before you start breaking them. Then at least you can make intelligent choices regarding the ones you break.

Regarding rules and mistakes... in any profession. My favorite quote;

"You've got to learn from other people's mistakes... You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself."

Groucho Marx

(I think)

Joseph, I was pretty much going along with you (no major quibbles) until I got to this:

"The new JVC HD camcorder may be the best tool for you to go about it. It will project to a big screen. The color may not be very good, and the controls as primitive, for film production, as wooden cameras from silent film era, but you'll be able to shoot a lot and make a lot of mistakes and learn from your mistakes."

Why this camera? This would probably be near the bottom of a list of my choices for a student filmmaker. Most people don't even have an HD tv, so why shoot in HD? Yeah, I know, you don't have to shoot in HD to use the camera, but then it makes even less sense. "Bad colors...primitive controls" How is this a recommendation? I see you list HD under your name. Perhaps you can tell us a little bit about yourself, so we may better know the person who is giving us advice?

Oh yeah, I second Rick Spillman's comments. First read the rule book, then you can throw it out the window, if you care to.

I disagree 100%.
The time to follow the rules is when you are a student. Rules are there because they work. You can't break the rules until you know how to work within them.

If you want to make your own movies for fun, do whatever you want. If you plan on breaking the rules because you are some sort of film rebel wannabe, save yourself the money and don't even bother going to film school.

Oh, break the rules when you are trying to get into the film business, and see how far you get....

I'm sick and tired of hearing people say "break the rules" "rules are meant to be broken" etc... People have a psychological problem with the term "rule". Respect the rules, they are there because they work.

Oh, the best tool for a young film maker is a light kit and a good microphone. It doesn't matter what kind of DV or film camera you have, although the JVC HD is my last choices in the price range.

If your British just buy a UGC cinema pass...it costs £9.99 ($15USD) an month for unlimited viewing. Anything in way of cheating/sneaking into more films is criminal act and can get you into a lot of trouble, if you say Im a film student they will just laugh ever louder!!! I dont know about LA, but over her they check tickets upon all entrance to screens! So even trying to sneak in will fail.

Those are pretty good tips, but I agree with Dylan on this. You have to learn the rules before you can break them, or you won't know what you're breaking, and why you're breaking it. I believe that to innovate you have to break some rules, but you shouldn't do it for the sake of breaking them.

Also, not to offend you Joseph, but I'm always wary of things like that which specifically state a brand name.. it feels like subversive advertising and we can usually spot it a mile away ;)

Friendly Advice to Film Students: Listen to your Teachers! (REVISED)

In a film school, from the very first project, you can sometimes tell the students with potential and the ones who would be better off taking something else---if you are the instructor, with years of teaching experience. But even with such an instructor, there can be surprises. A good instructor instills logic and kindles imagination at the same time, even with those students who may seem a little fresh. Heck, aren't we all a bit dumbfounded when we're young and siting in those intimidating 1st. year classes? Anyway, that's beside the point, bookkeepers can be just as creative as a creative lawyer, or even a creative film maker. Imagine that! (I'm sure Al Capone's bookkeeper was very, very creative.)

If you don't know how to position the camera, or if you should use a close up or a long shot, it does not matter. Just shoot it---within the guidelines of good videography/cinematography. So do follow set rules, but be creative and make movies! Try to learn from your mistakes. Absorb whatever they teach you in school, because this will build a strong foundation. On top of the movies shown and discussed in your film classes, go see movies that interest you. See them a few times and analyze them until you grasp some of their technique/s. Listen to the sounds and understand their relationship with the picture. Learn how proper volume and tones balance things. However, keep in mind that your class material comes first! If you can't afford to go see movies, get a part time job---but then, how is it that you are in school in the first place? Someone had to pay for it.

Note: do not break the law by sneaking into theatres!

Once you are skilled, experiment. This may mean to break some rules! It may work, or it may not. One day you may become a great film maker. No one became great by following the rules all of the time. There are plenty of average people in the world, and most can't even get a decent paying job. Why? There are many reasons. One reason is that the high end job market can only bear so much. If you want to be average, that's okay. We are what we are, but sometimes change can be good.

You must love movies, and you need to actually make movies, to succeed in the film industry. Mistakes you may make along the way are part of the growing experience, to the road to success (or failure). If film making doesn't work out, there are plenty of other opportunities inside and outside of the film industry. Yes, it's a big world out there---and Hollywood is no longer the #1 city for shooting movies, actually, for a few years now.

Hmm...I've got a conflicting opinion on this topic.
Where as I can understand one statement, the retorts have just as much merit.

Don't break the rules because the rules work. I disagree.
Well no one ever got anywhere by being normal...being average.
Then again, yes, while you're a student you are learning the rules...and it is a univeral rule in all forms that you must know/understand the rules before you can make a educated decision as the breaking them.

But then again, as a student, you would proably have more resources at a better price (if not for free) so it's the time to experiment...so yes, break as many rules as you want!!!
Don't agree with the 180 line of action rule? Fair enough, bust that rule to pieces in a short film project and see what people think!
Just make sure your not breaking the rules for the sake of breaking them and being different.

It all depends on the student. Some students are stubborn, and think that they are the “Sh#t” from the first day of class. In this case, I would allow them to do what they want to do, and then face humiliation in front of a real audience. Once their egos have been subdued by their own mistakes, they then will be more receptive and respective of the basic rules. In the end, you can’t break a rule if you don’t even understand why it’s there in the first place. And to fully understand why a rule exist in the first place, you must first come to respect it, and appreciate it.

I'm not certain what "rules" we're all speaking of, but any formalized convention is necessarily only going to be a specific codification of a more general truth.

Specific codification: 180-degree rule for camera placement
General truth: audience's orientation is governed by camera orientation
Hence: If the intent is to orient, the rule can be "followed"; if the intent is to disorient, the rule can be "broken"

In art as in life, the mission of the individual is neither to stringently "follow" nor habitually "break" convention (the former is nervousness, the latter, banalization), but rather, it is to understand the spirit behind the law and follow the spirit of the law.

And, I might add, the truly great artists become truly great by reaching down so deep into the spirit of the law that they are able to reformalize it into an entirely new genre, as Bracque and Picasso did with cubism, as Joyce did with literature, as the Beatles and their many contemporaries did with pop music.

An open letter to all student filmmakers,

Everyone's got an opinion, but I just say follow your heart.

There are only 2 questions you need to ask yourself:

1) Do you want to spend the rest of your life in the business?

2) Can you honestly answer the first question?

If you answered "Yes" to the 2 questions you'll figure it out...don't worry.

Having just said that - there are a few "opinions" I have that might help...but, are not concrete "rules" by any means.

I've been lucky to work with the best in film, television and even the music business. I had great years, shit years and everything in between...I've made $100,000's in Hollywood and recently I barely made my mortgage payment! Do you like roller coasters?

I think we all have opinions, but the considerations are pretty simple. If you want to own a house, have a family, money in the bank and lots of toys to enjoy life with...you might want to consider what aspect of the industry you want to work in.

Oh, something to avoid like the plague - don't try to "make it". That's the dumbest thing in the ENTIRE industry - when people say they want to "make it" - you generally dismiss them as someone who will never "make it". If you are working in anyway...and earning some type of income from the business then you have "made it" and are just as successful as George Lucas. Remember, everything is perception. You could be the coffee boy on George Lucas' SW III and handing him a cup....at that moment you are a peer. George Lucas and you...doesn't matter if you handing him a cup of coffee. If you are working, getting paid and part the "business" you are 100% certifed "industry" stamped. George Lucas will give you equal respect - trust me. 99.9% of the people in the business are like that...the very few who aren't don't get many jobs.

By thinking you will be the next George Lucas someday...you are undermining your ability to make those small steps up the ladder. So, he's made a few movies and has a really good imagination? Yeah, so? You are able to make some money and be creative too...right? Rules, blues and the latest news? It's all horseshit...just get up and go to work. You'll have rules one day...the next you won't. If you haven't noticed...no one really cares at the end of the day. It's perception. You can follow the rules and be successful and later say you broke them all...whoopie doo. Good for you.

Be perfectly ok where are and lay your bricks one-by-one to build your house....figuretively and subjectively. If you end up being an assistant the rest of your life (production assistant or assistant director on large budget films) and helping someone else fullfill their dream then at least you made money and were able to be creative. That whole "rules" thing is B.S. - just do your thing and stop announcing to the world that you're breaking rules. The minute you start blabbing non-constructive thoughts - you're labeled a wannabee. Do it and shut up. (I need to follow my own advice right now.)

We all have dreams, but being able to live a life without struggle should be something everyone should try and think about. The world is full of ups and down...give back to the people who give you a chance too. Never screw anyone, be polite, learn and you will be successful at making movies...in someway shape or form! This has been my advice to student filmmakers, but I certainly think you know more about your own future than anyone else. Counsel yourself whenever possible - it builds your charactor and makes you "independent".

:)

If you're going to break the rules, probably better to do it whilst young and before you're paying lots of money to go to film school. Just don't get into so many bad habits you can't learn properly!

From Glen,

It all depends on the student. Some students are stubborn, and think that they are the “Sh#t” from the first day of class. In this case, I would allow them to do what they want to do, and then face humiliation in front of a real audience. Once their egos have been subdued by their own mistakes, they then will be more receptive and respective of the basic rules. In the end, you can’t break a rule if you don’t even understand why it’s there in the first place. And to fully understand why a rule exist in the first place, you must first come to respect it, and appreciate it.

I agree with Glen you have to learn the rules.

Here's my 2 cents.

If you mean by breaking the rules. You go out and did what the producers of Open Water did then that is what I call breaking the rules. Then thats okay.

I'm sure most people told them you can't make a movie on DV in the middle of the ocean for around a $100,000 grand.

You need a big crew, big cameras and stars. But they knew they could do it. So yes that's the way you break the rules.

But in terms of filmmaking they stuck to the rules of what a movie should be.

To me, this comes under the heading of 'calculated risk'. It's when you know the rules or guidelines, know why they exist, and then 'adapt' the technique or rule just a little bit to make it uniquely you. It's somewhere between blatant disregard(a disaster waiting to happen) and totally by the book(stagnation and creative strangulation). Perhaps instead of saying break the rules, Joe should have said 'push the envelope'.

Don't look at just the film world. Go to a driving range and get a golf instructor. That person will teach you the fundamental 'rules' of the swing but everyone, even the top pros have slight variations on the 'rule' that work for them. My inspiration for rule-breaking if you will is/was Edward Van Halen. In an interview on MTV, he stated that you can't always go by that 'old book' or nothing new will happen. So Eddie decides that he can get a unique playing style and some extra notes by tapping the fretboard with his righthand. But, his idea for that came from the fact that he had already been trained in classical piano (his father's profession). He already knew how to play guitar and just added another dimension to it. And then of course, everyone else started doing it also.

Summary: Learn the tried and true methods and then carefully and gently poke holes in them to be innovative.

Also, I think most folks in this thread overlooked the fact that Joe was referring to the 'new JVC HD camera' which I take to mean the one they have announced and will likely show at this year's NAB.

My .02 worth,

-gb-

As a former film student, a current filmmaker and teacher, I'll say this: Learn the rules, then break them!

I couldn't do a non-linear script until I could write a good linear script.

I couldn't cut my films up and change the tone, emotions, etc., until I could make a decent, straight-forward cut.

I tried to do multiple locations and/or multiple casts. It would take MONTHS to shoot a 12-20 minute short because of scheduling and audiences got confused by the sheer number of things (I still stand by that).

As a current student puts it (and used this rule of thumb while working as a fire rescue guy), "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail." That's what happened to me (best place to f--k up: school) in the past, and what happens to my current students.

Don't define yourself by your first, second or third movies. It was actually my personal film (technically my 4th, but it came out before my 3rd) and my final, 5th student film that I thought were worthwhile.

Don't give yourself huge expectations and be prepared for no comments from viewers. Those are more painful than anything else!

And above all else, put into your film school lessons what your teachers and fellow film students will give to you. Don't just sit around and let everyone do it for you.

Finally, listen to your teachers, esp. ones with tons of experience. They messed up often (I know I have) and you can definitely learn from their mistakes! Esp. when it concerns story, locations, cast, and esp. equipment. Equipment is there for you to learn, but don't do something stupid (like when I put a tripod on my shoulder with the camera still on it and then it fell off--D'OH!).

heath

Oh, forgot this: learn the rules, then break the rules. And when your teacher(s), money or even you set up limitations, and there are plenty, you'll notice that your creative side will explode. Not only have I experienced it, but so has my students. Their original scripts called for big events that can't be done in a school setting (car chases, etc.), so they did other things. My favorite was my student making a film where two people are shot. By showing someone pulling the trigger, then quickly cutting to the person with blood , it looked like the person was shot! That's great, low budget and creative filmmaking!

And judging by what he said about the JVC HD camera, it's safe to assume (bad colors, etc.) he's talking about the HD10 or HD1. You're better off with the FX1 or Z1, but let's keep those discussions to these boards (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=62).

heath

Oh, for the of God....USE A TRIPOD! Stay away from unmotivated camera moves if you want to keep the audience interested beyond 120 minutes.

Please rent this movie to see the Hell known as "hand held" camera. It has become the cancer of films (commercials in theaters are close 2nd!). Sometimes a little hand held is perfect...but, 120 minutes of hand held camera work is HELL!

Other honorable mentions for horrible hand held camera work are these films -- Bloody Sunday, Thirteen, Mean Creek and of course the evil MTV generation of shooters.

The #1 worst offender of horrible hand held work - "Blackwoods":

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0279695/

It's worth renting this movie just to learn what NOT to do.

The evil director/writer/producer who gave birth to this monster:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0093051/

A good review that sums it up:

http://www.diabolical-dominion.com/Reviews/Blackwoods/

That director has a 0/2 record in the states with House of the Dead and Alone in the Dark...

I don't mind too much handheld stuff, just not overkill, like Murph said.

heath

Penny Arcade had a classic cartoon strip about Uwe Boll and his video game adaptations ('http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-12-18&res=l').

You know even bad films have good trailers but the trailer for "Alone in the Dark" was terrible.

Here's a rule: You get no image in a room that is _completely dark_.

Please try to break that rule.

I agree with Dylan Couper and others who insist that it is better to
learn from others mistakes than to repeat them and waste time and money.

Here's one of my rules: You get good when working with those who are
better than you.

Film school is also a good place to make mistakes and learn.

heath

Quite frankly, I really wanted to go to film school but decided not to because of all the expenses I would need to spend on.

My goal for now is to get either the FX1 or the DVCPRO-HD cam from Panasonic.

www.palmbeachfilmschool.com All graduates get free lifetime use of equipment.

heath

Dylan...............I hate to break the news to you but rules are not always there because they work, in many cases they are put there because of opinions of people who can make the rules. Case and point.........LAW and in particular, Family Law! Do some reading, many many many famous peoples in whatever there "profession" go against the norm or "rules, that is why and how they get where they get! While your point may be valid to some degree I think you were a little harsh and wrong to some degree.

You can go against rules, but don't break the rules that are there to keep you out of trouble, for instance, shooting with tons of actors and locations on a student film. While there are exceptions to every rule, after 5 short student films with just that problem, I got tired of shooting once a month for 5 months to finish a 20 minute film. The feature we tried doing fell apart mostly because of that (and no planning).

If you think you can constantly break rules like the ones I describe above, good luck. My experience proved otherwise. My final two films had mimimal locations and cast and I did them in under 3 days each. In a row.

heath

Perhaps the main problem is with the term "rules". As kids, we all learned to "hate the rules" because they restricted us so much.

Perhaps a better term would be "guidelines." They are intended to guide us, not restrain us.

Just about every trade/industry/discipline has a set of guidelines or best practices that, for the most part, have been proven over many years to work, and work well in most cases. The movie industry is no different.

Most of these guidelines were developed through a lot of hard work, a lot of trial and error, to finally find the "best" approach. Like Edison and his light bulb. He found 3,000 ways that wouldn't work, and one that would. Do you really want to waste your time reinventing the "light bulb", or build on it and make a better one? Or maybe at first, just get some good lighting? :-)

The real professionals are not constrained by the guidelines, but neither do they carelessly deviate from them. They have already learned the guidelines, and understand why they work. But when the occasion calls for it, they deviate from it. Sometimes they even throw out the entire book. But it's done consciously, and with great deliberation.

Ignoring the guidelines from the beginning is just one more symptom of our instant gratification society. There was a time when artists and craftsmen worked as apprentices for many years to learn their trade. Now that technology provided the tools for any idiot to shoot a film or video, many people don't want to wait to make their first blockbuster. But just like most high-profile professions (like NBA stars), most people will fail because they don't have the patience and perseverance, or in fact lack the true talent.

Sure there will be a genius every now and then who just knows a better way to do things. Just don't be too quick to put yourself in the "genius" category. :-) Most of us fall far short.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree, I just think you cant let rules "rule" you completely in art and that is afterall what we are doing.

Pete,

You nailed it perfectly! Guidelines is a better term!

Tom,

Best of luck.

heath

As a student, I would just like to say that breaking the rules is one of the only ways to get satisfaction, but that's not to say it's the right or wrong thing to do.

If you stink at making videos, breaking the rules may only make it stink worse... if you're alright, then breaking the rules may not only aggrivate your professors, but it may add something to your venture.

I think it's great that we can argue about the motions to success, and yet so few of us actually reach it. If it were as simple as this thread makes it seem, I wouldn't live in tennessee right now.

I have a strong distaste for teachers. I feel (as i'm sure many others do) like the great majority of teachers are just bitter and trying to make up for something they could never achaieve. Who are teachers to teach us the way things "should be," and what is "good"?

Didn't you ever have an english tecaher that tried to get you to understand Shakespeare and why his paridoxical ramblings were so great, when the most of us don't and never will care?

The world is subjective. Rules or no rules, judging people and their reactions to movies, music, and stories is like trying to predict the future. When it happens it happens. Few know why, and the ones who do probably only took a good guess.

I think this thread is great, pointless, but great. If ever there was a summation of mankind, this has been it.

Thanks for your time,

Nevin

Nevin,

I disagree with your assessment of teachers. As a teacher who also makes a living make films, I feel that my (and our teachers') experiences in the film and TV trade only benefit our students at the Palm Beach Film School (www.palmbeachfilmschool.com). None of us are trying to compensate for anything. We try to teach the basics of digital filmmaking, and we encourage them to follow those basics on their first film. After that, it's all up to them.

And we teach this as rebellious filmmakers ourselves, anyway. I always say, follow the guidelines the first time out, learn and grow, then go for it in the next films!

Also, if you, as a first time filmmaker or a film student, are out to make the next Memento, Pulp Fiction or Ghandi, you're in for serious disappointment. Know that you will make something cool, but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on, films will be even better. I've made 5 student films, a feature and 3 short films, and am about to make my 2nd feature, I've noticed each film is better than the previous one.

heath

I have a strong distaste for teachers. I feel (as i'm sure many others do) like the great majority of teachers are just bitter and trying to make up for something they could never achaieve. Who are teachers to teach us the way things "should be," and what is "good"?

Didn't you ever have an english tecaher that tried to get you to understand Shakespeare and why his paridoxical ramblings were so great, when the most of us don't and never will care?

Sounds like you've never had a good teacher. Too bad for you.

Great teachers don't just teach you the 'rules' or tell you what went on before, they provide insight and inspiration. If you've never experienced that, then you've had the bad luck of choosing the wrong courses or schools.

Good teachers never tell you what 'should be' unless they are teaching something absolute like one of the sciences.

I've had great teachers guide me through Shakespeare and I've seen the beauty and insight of those great works and how they continue to be source for inspiration by modern writers.

I've also had bad teachers, teachers I've clashed with and teachers who were boring. I just didn't take their courses again.

The only thing I've gleaned from your blanket criticism is that your experience has been extraordinarily bad.

I agree with Keith's post. I've had bad teachers, too, trust me. And to add more to my last post, I tell students what it's like, what they can accomplish (a lot) and what their limits are (basic stuff like car chases and the like) and how they can do so much with so little (like a car chase) by using their imagination and hard work.

Nothing's black and white in this world, esp. in filmmaking, but I try my best to guide my students to attaining their goals in the class: making a film. And every student writes and directs their own film (my film school had us team up for the first film we did).

heath

Heath,

Thanks and good luck to you. I would also like to say I have nothing against teachers or school, I was trying to make a point. Someone hit it right on the nose......"guidelines". I am a videographer and self taught(countless hours and projects of mistakes). The simple and the guidelines would certainly have saved me time had I had time or more important, money to go to school. At my age and with 3 kids going back to school really isnt an option but, a few courses are.

A couple thoughts on various topics.

Chris Murphy states "Handheld is Evil" and points to the film "Bloody Sunday" as an offending example. Here is an excerpt from a review of "Bloody Sunday" posted on IMDb:
"the jerky, hand-held camera seems to be held by someone who is actually there witnessing these events. Many times, the camera follows behind characters as they walk, panning up and down, back and forth, as a person might actually glance around. This creates one of the most convincing "you-are-there" feelings I've ever had while watching a movie. It's effective the whole time, but especially during the 20 or so minutes when the massacre is happening. These scenes are depicted with a rawness and realism that is absolutely horrifying, like being trapped in a nightmare you can't wake up from."
Morale: one person's "evil" is another's Nirvana. Absolutes will get you in trouble in matters of taste. Sorry, Chris, but I would hate to think that your warning would keep someone from viewing what I THOUGHT was an absolutely riveting film. And how you get those performances from what is mostly an amatuer cast is just spectacular. But, hey, that's just my OPINION.

"We are creating ART." (my caps) Oh yeah? Well, thank you, but we'll be the judge of that. There is a major gap between craftsmen and artists, and it has to do with a lot more than simply execution. Everyone who has the talent to draw, is not an artist. And everyone attending an arts college is not de facto an "artist." Artist is a title that should be reserved for those who have earned it. Supposedly, when the German writer and philosopher, Goethe, was asked the eternal question, "What is Art?" he responed with three criteria;
What is the Artist trying to do?
How well has he done it?
Was it worth doing in the first place?
Obviously, it is the third of the criteria that is the major stumbling block, and will provoke the most discussion. For example, is "Sin City" a work of art, because it looks good? Have fun.

Well...I'm with Nevin. If you have the ability to identify your strengths and weaknesses, there's no education like self education. The one-size-fits-all scholastic model does not agree with me, and denies me the pleasure of discovering things on my own.

My problem isn't with teachers. It's with the system they use to grade. Grading films is like grading poetry. I think that as long as it means something to the maker no one else's judgement should matter no matter what style is used. You can give it an A or an F but its good as long as the creator thinks so and or it appeals to anyone.
That's why the subjective thing about teachers annoys me. I have had plenty of great teachers. But no great teacher can make up for the fact that there is a flaw in the grading it self.
What makes sponge bob as popular as scooby doo? They are completely different and yet both are incredibly popular. There is no set of rules that both cartoons explicitly follow that makes people like those cartoons.
This idea applies to all forms or visual, spoken, and written art.
That's all I was trying to say.
Thanks, and sorry if I have offended anyone.
Nevin

I hadn't been paying much notice to this thread, but I think I'll go back and read through it. Always entertaining to watch people try to argue objectively about things that are inherently subjective. After all...

Can there exist a word more subjective than "art?"

Whether learning in scientific disciplines as I have done, or in artistic pursuits as my wife -- who has a degree in art history -- has done, one's capabilities grow faster by absorbing the accumulated knowledge of those who came before, than without. Good teachers facilitate that process greatly; poor teachers, well, less so; there are all kinds, just as in all professions. When we finally know our craft as well as do our mentors, we are then well-positioned to expand the boundaries. In science, the student becomes the researcher. In artistic fields, one develops new forms, or at least new techniques, of artistic expression...whatever that is.

Not so rare is the youthful student who believes he knows better than his teacher. Rare indeed is the student who eschews learning and yet exceeds his master, excepting perhaps to his own eye. Michelangelo was apprenticed; Einstein was a clerk (and a teacher, by the way). But for those who cannot bear the yoke of learning from others I say, "Go forth. Journey on without your roadmap. For the faint chance that you find your way to some good place, it was better lucky than good."

Well-said Pete. I couldn't agree more.

Those who believe that they know it all, or that they can learn it all from their own experience just because it is "art" indeed have a lot to learn. I wish them luck, because they will need it more than most.

Becoming a successful filmmaker requires much more than being a talented artist. It requires significant technical skills, people skills, and business skills. The wise realize that much is to be learned from the masters, whether the master is currently active in his/her profession, or have dedicated him/herself to being a teacher. The key is finding the best "master" to mentor you.

I think there is a difference in attitude depending on whether film education is seen as 'professional development' versus 'scholarly learning'. It is also a difference in maturity.

I've never stopped taking courses even though it's been nearly ten years since I went to university as an undergrad. Does this mean that I like sitting in a lecture theatre lapping up wisdom from someone who more credentials than me?

No. Learning even in that sort of environment involves a lot more than that. It is a two-way dialogue. I take a course because I want to add to my knowledge and want to be around others who are seeking knowledge. I want to add to my own skillset. Different from when I did my undergrad degree, I am picking and choosing what courses to take purely on the basis of adding to my skillset. My attitude going in is that this course *must* add to my knowledge or skillset or it is a waste of time. It is not a requirement, it is something I've chosen to do. I am paying my own fees and I can walk out or demand a refund if I want.

So if I don't like a certain teacher, I vote with my feet. If I was mislead about the content, I complain. But when I know this is the course for me, I make it my own whether in study groups or in interacting with the teacher and with other students. I do this so I get full value out of the money I paid for it.

If I think I can develop certain skills or gain knowledge on my own, certainly I won't take the course. But to me it is not an either/or proposition. Buying my XL1S was an excellent self-education. During that time I took lots of courses. I also bought or borrowed books. Continued watching film. Read scripts. All of it was learning.

Your whole life learning should be seen as self-directed. People who complain at the end of the course have wasted everyone's time and their own money. As a lifelong student as soon as one gets away from the high school attitude the better.

As for getting marked. In many continuing education courses now I see that marking is optional. I like seeing how I'm marked so I always opt to be marked by the teacher. Why? Because I see the teacher as a peer and want to know their opinion. But almost all the courses are pass/fail so I'm free to disagree or agree or even discuss the mark with the teacher. Of course in a technical program marking should be required (for example, any industrial trades course). No one really cares what your grades were like after you graduated, only that you took part (certification). If you failed a course then there were probably a lot more serious factors involved than a poor teacher.

It ceases to amaze me how fast what is said can become misconstrued or ignored on message boards.
Yes, art is subjective.
Yes, learning is fundamental and very important.
My problem is the fact that student get graded based on that subjectivity.
If a teacher at yoru school doesnt like your lighting you get an F... but at another school its something diffrent or the teacher just happens to like it for some reason then you get an A.
Thats what i dont appreciate. There is no set standards for teachers to grade by. Its all depends on their mood and personality. Grading objectively as a teacher of art does not seem possible. Thats how it looks to me as a student.
Maybe now what i have been saying will make more sence.
Thanks for your time,
Nevin

Yes, let's have those rules broken, but let's figure out which rules to break first. This is all very well talking about ART, and SUBJECTIVITY, but in this 10th anniversary year of Dogme95, lets get down to brass tacks.

Here are some of the rules I see my students adhering to with depressing regularity that I would like to see broken.

Basic equipment use:

Always use the auto features, especially for exposure and focus. Remember the camera knows better than you. You can always tell if you're getting good image by checking out the little flip out LCD screen, THE most accurate and reliable form of monitoring known to man!
Zebra stripes. Are. For. PUSSIES.
Always use the camera microphone - it's there for a reason. If you simply MUST use a separate microphone try to negate its effect by keeping it as close to the camera as possible.
Don't use headphones to check your sound. It'll only depress you unnecessarily. As a student you've got enough to worry about.
Composition and camera style.

Three words: ZOOM, ZOOM and ZOOM. Why waste tedious time on set and in the editing by cutting between close ups and mid/wide shots when this can all be achieved in camera.
Always keep the camera at eye level. The camera operator's eye level that is, when standing up. Citizen Kane is considered the greatest film ever made and this is almost definitely because in every shot, the camera is exactly 5ft 4 in above the floor. Every shot, just check it out.
Always remember, cinema is a 2 dimensional art form, like painting, stained glass windows and writing your name in the snow in piss. Try to avoid any sort of dynamic composition in space or movement towards or away from the camera. It will only annoy the audience when they realise the characters on screen aren't really getting closer or further away.
Handheld IS the preferred mode, but if you ARE using a tripod, try to avoid EVER changing the framing by panning and tilting. Anything between a tight lock down* or shaky handheld is verboten!
(*the obvious exception to this is zooming.)
If a scene is meant to be dark, it must be uniformly dark across the whole image; areas of contrast are not permitted.
Try to ensure dark shadows in the actors' eyes so their eyes cannot be seen, like Marlon Brando in The Godfather. This is doubly important for comedies.
Lighting tests are totally pointless, expecially as the above effect is quite easy to achieve on the day without much work.

Script writing and storytelling:

Documentaries don't have interesting stories. They are simply exercises invented by government funded TV channels and unhappy film school teachers to punish the rest of the world, and should be treated as such.
When undertaking an enforced documentary project, it should not be planned or researched; you should simply film everything and sort it out in editing.
You will NEVER find a better subject for a documentary subject than your flatmate who is probably a part time DJ/Skateboarder/in a band/in a sports-team/has his or her own car. Your film lecturers will possibly feel otherwise but they are trying to make you BREAK THE RULES!
For fiction projects: DO NOT dilute the purity of your script by doing second, third or subsequent drafts. Every decent script every made into a film was written in _one_ go and usually half an hour before it was due to be handed in, Including Chinatown, Pulp Fiction and Bloodsport II. Everyone knows this!
If circumstances force rewrites, try not to share your rewrites with the rest of the crew, spontaneity will be maintained if they find out about script changes AS they actually shoot the scene.
As in documentary, so in fiction - your flatmates are almost certain to be the best actors you could ever hope to find (unless they are drama students). Anyone who has ever watched Scarface from beginning to end more than once is a potential Al Pacino. Do not cast ANYONE over the age of 22.
Godard almost said it best: "all you need for a film is a girl and a gun", but although the first half of his name IS "God" he was wrong on this, as he should have said "All you need for a film is a girl OR a gun". However if choosing the "girl" route, do make sure that she is beaten/raped/murdered by the end of the film.


Post-production:

Once the script is finished, any deviation in the post-production stage is strictly disallowed. If it was written that way, it has to be edited that way, no matter what those rule breakin' types might feel.
Writer/Directors ALWAYS make the best editors.
try to use every shot you took in some form or another. Wasted camera angles are a major contribution to global climate change.
No-one EVER complained that a student film was too long. Ever. The best way to prepare for a career in Feature films is to be able to make the audience believe your 15 minute film was actually 90 minutes long.
Doing a good sound mix must ALWAYS take second place to making sure you have nice interesting end credits.
Credits don't count in the films' total running time, so take this advantage to extend the film with funny outtakes of you cast forgetting lines and falling over, or the crew messing about (pulling faces, mooning and blow job gags are mandatory). This sort of stuff is ESPECIALLY funny to complete strangers who don't know any of the cast or crew, particularly if the proceeding film was not a comedy.
When it all goes wrong in the end and a lecturer asks you why, simply remember, it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault.


And finally, never forget... What your teachers tell you in lectures is already more than you'll EVER need to know, so never do any independent research or read up on a particular area - it's all a total waste of time. No-one ever learnt anything reading a book.

This is good stuff!

heath

That was brilliant, Dylan. But you must be an old bitter fogie who is just takin' it out on those rebels who would be the next Tarantinos if only they could get past your class.

Godard almost said it best: "all you need for a film is a girl and a gun", but although the first half of his name IS "God" he was wrong on this, as he should have said "All you need for a film is a girl OR a gun". However if choosing the "girl" route, do make sure that she is beaten/raped/murdered by the end of the film.

This is my favourite and also the most depressing. When you have a forty-year old director yelling for "more titties" you wonder just why you are on set if not satisfying some immature fantasy.

Dylan,

I think you've got the perfect script for a documentary on student filmmaking.

But don't be surprised when you find someone quoting you on proper filmmaking. <bg> You obviously have too much time on your hands. <g>

I had one student who never focused and, though we allow people final cut, when everyone, students, teachers and regular people, told the student to cut the film from 30 minutes to at least 20, the student scoffed.

heath

ive never followed a formula to makeing short films. i usually just go with whatever looks good to me.

I aint bitter, more annoyed, and too frequently disappointed. I'm 33 so not a fogey yet and I do have very good students too. I'd be proud for my class to produce the next Tarantino - hell, I'd be happy with the the next Raja Gosnell!

I'm happy for students to "break the rules", I'm just annoyed when they don't care about what they film. especially those that have CHOSEN to do video production.

The "woman being attacked" one is pretty depressing, as every time a group suggests this storyline, they start by saying "We've decided to do something a bit different" and then outline the same cliches: girl wandering home alone, the attacker's POV, girl runs away, finds somewhere safe, and just when she thinks she's got away the attacker catches her. Why can't my students aspire to break THAT narrative convention!

"Breaking rules" is great if you want to create something daring and innovative, but not when it's out of out of laziness and lack of imagination.

The main problem I have with the title for this thread is it's a negative statement mascarading as a positive one, and it's essentially meaningless and empty.

How about if the title was "Advice to Student Filmmakers -- Do something different: creative, original and unexpected".

Nevin, I see your problem and it may be a valid one, but frankly if that's the way you're assessed then you have poor teachers. I do NOT assess lighting (for example) on personal taste. I dislike that high gloss, Advertising/Michael-Bay-film cinematography, but if a student managed to replicate that style for a project, he or she would get very good marks because it demonstrates particular skill, but also taken into account is the amount of planning or preparation a student does. You get marks for lots of research, (ploughing through copies of American Cinematographer, or the many good books on film/video lighting), preparation, doing tests, working out an appropriate look for the film, finding photos and paintings as references, etc.

In the end it's irrelevent because if the students do really good work, they'll have great showreels and practical experience, and they'll realise the good/bad grades they got aren't so important, and they'll find people in the professional world are so much more subjective and judgemental than their teachers ever were.